Can Propane be Repaced with CNG?

That is a good reference and some of the later posters should read it to clarify the differences. When I worked on a Syn-Gas Plant for PSE&G back in the early 70's we had to have Propane tanks on site to spike up the syn-gas to bring it up to the BTU equivalent of the pipe line Natural Gas that we were adding the syn-gas to.

Since they charged by the therm it had to be carefully monitored to match the official BTU value which was about 1040.

Rorschach's post was also right on. Both had GA's.

Caterpillar now makes special generators to run on synthesis gas. I am not sure what other measures may be needed.

LPG on vehicles definitely needs a gasifier.

This is because it is generally mixed into an engine as a gas. More modern systems have direct liquid injection which gives better control, more power, better efficiency and lower emissions.

I don't know of any injection units for LNG and there probably won't be any soon since CNG is the usual form for natural gas on vehicles.

The fact that the fuel is added to the engine as a gas reduces power, although it has a significantly higher octane rating that normal petrol and most people never take advantage of this by raising the compression ratio.

LPG can be sprayed through an orifice and the resulting pressure drop will gassify it without adding heat (and can refrigerate the air charge in the process making it denser.). LNG however is cryogenic so must be heated before it will revert to gas which is what I meant. technically both are gassifiers but the LPG one is much simpler and doesn't require extra energy to gassify it.

My understanding is that LNG will be the fuel of the future long haul trucks. CNG for local. See Cumminswestport.com . Peterbilt and Cummins are both coming out with 20 Liter truck engines next year.

no way. nowhere near enough range. you're dreaming.

I may be dreaming, but time will tell who is right.

GA, simply explained!

It is all about cost, referring to vehicle fuel, propane is not competitive with CNG. Maybe it could be, but I haven't seen it. We will see if propane dealers try to compete. I doubt it. cngnow.com lists station prices.

one last note. I believe LPG is a by product of petroleum refining processes and extraction, and is therefore a valuable by product that is packaged and sold. It is useful, and must be removed, and is not suitable for for low pressure pipeline distribution, like NG.Hence, the propane and propane accessories industry.

Then it could eventually be sold at a lower price, rather than a higher price. It must be very profitable right now. I would like to see some competition introduced. That is my motive for asking the question.

Thanks

Ron

why do you assume that it could be sold at a lower price? It is a small container versus a bulk distribution format. It costs more to distribute it.

The propane around here costs way more than natural gas piped into homes. I am thinking of a dealer who would have a large quality compression system , and natural gas piped to his location. He would just have to have one tank and one compressor. Plenty of companies have gone to CNG for taxi fleets, delivery vans etc. because it is less expensive. Otherwise they would be using propane.

Good question. With the abundance of Natural Gas in certain areas you would think this to be of much interest. I would be interested in developing a CNG Market in my area, South of Dallas, Tx., with conversions and supply service if practical and financially feasible.

Read the information on Wikipedia. They mention all the various forms of natural gas vehicles. Many are switchable to multiple fuels. There are also tanks that do not have to be heavy duty, but use an adsorbent material. General Motors, and several foreign companies have developed switchable systems for some of their vehicles. The abundance of natural gas is a very long term fact, at least for the USA. The potential is there. It is just a matter of overcoming the inertia of the existing private and governmental entities. The lower pollution of natural gas is a secondary factor in favor of CNG vehicles. They are also considered safer than gasoline vehicles.

CNG is an excellent fuel, and my country (Argentina) has a leading industry that covers all the components required to compress gas at gas stations as well as for converting vehicles ( carburetor / injection) into a dual system (gasoline / CNG). As Argentina has plenty of methane, but scarce amounts of good quality petrol, we have been first in the rank of CNG vehicles for many years, currently being second to Pakistan. Brazil (3rd in the ranking) has used a mixture of Methanol / Gasoline for many years, slowly shifting into CNG due to its lower cost and better combustion quality. In regard to the US, the issue I see is that users will not accept this fuel very easily because a mid-sized car needs to refuel every 150 miles, or to resign the use of the trunk to carry larger tanks.

Thanks for the info. Recent studies have been made regarding range anxiety in electric cars. They have found that the vast majority of Americans do not drive over 90 miles per day, so it is not that big a problem for most. Also most families in the USA have more than one vehicle. The dual fuel vehicle solves this problem anyway. Many of our vehicles are SUVs, minivans, or trucks that have plenty of room for tanks. A purpose built vehicle would have the tank built where the gas tank is, unless it is dual fuel.

Another big factor is that most homes in the USA have natural gas for heat, and can fill up at home.

All the best,

Ron

Hi Ron, we too have natural gas at home, but you only can refuel at licensed gas stations. This is because a couple of reasons: first (main) is that higher taxes apply on CNG than on the gas used at home (governments love to cash $$$$$ that easy!). Second is that gas has to be compressed up to 200 Bar, which requires some sophisticated / expensive equipment, which can also be dangerous if not carefully done.

Best regards

GA

But the equipment/parts are not high rated/super quality to replace the old here in Pakistan. So if some one out there want to do export business in pakistan can gain good profits against good quaility CNG parts.

Have fun !

These are Argentinian leading manufacturers of CNG equipment for cars and machinery.I have heard some of them export to Pakistan.May be you can do a good business importing this products into your country!
best regards!

Thanks r&ddoc,

May be some day I will be a business man, till then ..!

Have fun !

Please see cngsolutions.net/franchise_fueling_station. Great web site. I have no direct knowledge or financial interest.

I sell propane and propane accessories. (Hank Hill)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Hill

Would you consider selling CNG also?

I thought it was Eric Clapton's song "Propane" that made it popular.

"She's alright, She's alright, She's alright... Propane."

CNG is selling for $.78 in Oklahoma. About $1.20 in Utah. Around $2.80 in Chicago, or Southern California.

cngprices.com has a great map for USA and Europe. It has updated prices.