What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

It's not politics, it's a fact. I'm sorry if you find it disturbing.

If I had spent millions building a coal fired plant, only to find out it would be run into bankruptcy by the EPA, I would consider a catastrophic failure, followed by an insurance payout to cover my construction costs, a godsend.

Do you suppose that the fact that they're being so secretive about it, doesn't involve politics?

Don't ask the question, if you can't handle the likely truth.

We'll probably never know the exact mechanism behind the failure, but I'll bet you good money that they won't be fixing it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

The only thing political about my post, was that the promise to bankrupt new coal fired plants, happened to come from a politician. One that can follow through on the promise.

Lets do a little research, shall we?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Sandy_Creek_Plant

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2011/12/02/power-plant-shutdowns-delays-could-mean-more-blackouts-next-year/

http://kutnews.org/post/us-fifth-circuit-construction-sandy-creek-coal-plant-violates-clean-air-act

http://www.texasobserver.org/forrestforthetrees/federal-court-smacks-down-waco-area-coal-plant

http://texasvox.org/2010/11/30/5th-circuit-says-sandy-creek-does-not-comply-with-clean-air-act/

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/dec2011/2011-12-14-093.html

Do you really think that a sudden, secretive plant failure is a coincidence?

I'm not saying that these companies are good or bad, nor whether shutting down coal is good or bad................it just is.

I just found this. Sandy Creek was the last one standing, and hanging by a thread. I don't think it made financial sense for them to try to move forward. Of course it could be repaired and brought on line....................but it's not worth the trouble.

Regardless of the politics, the outright hypocrisy is outrageous.

Coal Projects Sponsored by Dynegy / LS Power

On hold or cancelled

• Longleaf (Georgia)
• Midland Power Plant (Michigan)
• Plum Point Energy Station (Arkansas)
• White Pine Energy Station (Nevada)
• Baldwin Energy Complex (Illinois)
• LS Power Elk Run Energy Station (Iowa)
• LS Power Sequoyah Plant (Oklahoma)
• LS Power Sussex proposal (Virginia)
• Marion City Project (South Carolina)
• West Deptford Project (New Jersey)

Active Sandy Creek Plant (Texas)

Good for you.

I just found this. Sandy Creek was the last one standing, and hanging by a thread.

What are you talking about? There are 15 in Colorado alone. source

I didn't mean the last one standing in the country.

These were all new projects that were sponsored by Dynagy/ LS Power.

All had been targeted by the Sierra Club. As of the writing of the list, the only one that hadn't been postponed or cancelled, was Sandy Creek.

It appears as if that problem has been rectified.

Sorry for the confusion.

If the Sierra Club had any brains, they could at least allow the new, clean burning plants to open, and insist that an old dirty one gets shut down in exchange. But no............................the old dirty plants that have been grandfathered in, will continue to burn. Good job Sierra Club. Way to go EPA.

This all has pretty far reaching implications. Not the least of which, is the fact that the US electrical grid is pretty maxed out. I don't think it's out of the question, that all of these new (energy hungry) manufacturing jobs that we're hearing about, will fail to materialize due to the inability to feed them the required power. Texas is getting very nervous.

This is a little OT, but an interesting read.

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

Thanks for the article, I've saved the PDF for reading later.

I did take a closer read of this article, and notice it was from 2003. How has the situation changed since then? I presume the large inter-connecting grid is still poorly coordinated? THe only reason it hasn't max'ed out is due to reduced energy consumption due to our recession, depression or whatever?

Somebody decided to build a power plant. That's all about money.

There is just no way that you will EVER be able to separate money and politics, in our present society.

Nope. After reading the financing links, and seeing that the banks that financed the project received billions in bailout money from the same government that runs the EPA.....................I'm more confused than ever. It looks like a giant, money merry go round. And it looks like this project, as well as others, are going to sit abandoned for the foreseeable future, if not forever. It's just crazy.

If the government is going to bail out banks, and simultaneously promise to bankrupt any new coal plants.....................................Gee, I don't know..............maybe they should stipulate that the banks don't finance coal projects.

Hi Mark

Could you name one industry in which such tactics are not used? Be it pharma, weapons, oil, you name it. It is a form of cancer in my eyes and it looks like the patient will have to follow a strict diet or die. The life support system should be turned off. Were is that plug?

I would love to follow all the links that have been provided here but I lack the time to do so. Like qaqcpipeman I would like to know how this could happen in a technical sense. Sorry if the answer to this was given in one of the links, I would like to see them here and not be part of the splitting hair division.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your tenacity to point out the failures of the existing system and the many traps it provides for the gullible.

Were is that plug?

Kind Regards, Ky.

Hi ky,

Unfortunately, I cannot name an industry in which some sort of unholy alliance hasn't been established with government. Globally.

I would also like to know the technical reason for this plant shutdown. I suspect that there isn't one that is worthy of release to a skeptical public. What I do know...................is that after all of the work and money that was dumped into this place, there is no technical reason that it can't be repaired and put into service.

If we're going to quit coal..................we need to quit it!!!!! These big money games are killing us. To think that this massive, expensive, brand new project is going to sit vacant behind locked gates forever, without ever producing a drop of energy or any jobs beyond it's construction, pi$$es me off to no end.

In this particular case, the government bailed out the banks to the tune of billions. Those very same banks loaned the money to LS to build the plant. Then the government sides with the Sierra Club to bring about the shutdown of two other plants, as well as making this one not worth opening due to the environmental hurdles.

I don't get it.

Oh. And then we've got us idiot citizens split into two camps:

One that says the government is in bed with the environmentalists.

Another that says the government is in bed with big industry.

Let me answer both sides simultaneously, for the record.

YOU'RE RIGHT!!!

What many forget is that coal has a very low level of radiation in it, forget CO2, the sheer volume of coal burnt means that it also contributes a significant amount of radiation being released.....

Nuke Power stations that blow out a fraction of that would be shut down immediately....

Look here:-

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

Here you can read:-

What about your coal burners now eh?

You're on a roll..................massive drive by shootings. Radiation poisoning from coal.................

I heard that eating carrots eventually leads to death.

Did you read the article?

McBride and his co-authors estimated that individuals living near coal-fired installations are exposed to a maximum of 1.9 millirems of fly ash radiation yearly. To put these numbers in perspective, the average person encounters 360 millirems of annual "background radiation" from natural and man-made sources, including substances in Earth's crust, cosmic rays, residue from nuclear tests and smoke detectors.

Dana Christensen, associate lab director for energy and engineering at ORNL, says that health risks from radiation in coal by-products are low.

The technology exists to burn coal relatively cleanly. The last leg of the argument against it, is CO2..............................and they're winning.

Engineers and realists across the land are left with nothing left to do, but beat their heads against a wall.

What I said was true, a nuke would be taken off line if it released a tiny part of the radio activity of a coal burner. Extra radiation, no matter how low, is not a good thing, surely everyone knows that, 3 mile island was a good example for the USA.....We had Tchernobyl.....

As to the effects on humans nearby, that was an opinion not a fact as nobody really knows 100%.....as you yourself wrote:-

McBride and his co-authors estimated.......

I personally won't accept "estimated", if you do, that's fine with me. But if I was living downwind of such a plant, I would want to know REAL facts!!! Good and bad.....But I am far too careful to even think of buying a house near to any big plant!! If you are too, then you think the same way as I do....

Its another coffin nail for burning coal as we do it right now.....maybe in the future we can clean it up better and use it as the world's known resources exceed for at least enough for 300 years....at least it did the last time I checked, maybe more today!!!

Calculations by Joseph Mangano-who has authored 19 medical journal articles and a book on Low Level Radiation and Immune Disease-would suggest that the effects are farther reaching that many will agree to. At least following his recommendations will not result in unnecessary deaths.....

You should read this website fully, especially with regard to strontium 90 in baby teeth and then of dying of cancer before 50!! Its quite interesting.....See here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_and_Public_Health_Project

Also I never mentioned radiation poisoning, only you did, read my post again, I selected my words most carefully (as always) in case someone misunderstood what I wrote, as you did and do, again, and again and again....if thats what you need to get your rocks off, then carry on.......no skin off my nose!!

With regard to carrots, don't forget that an "over dosage" of many simple foodstuffs is bad for us....people have overdosed on carrot juice......and gone a funny orange colour!! Too much vitamin K.....which helps in causing blood to clot, so I would guess here, but it could possibly cause a heart attack or similar I possibly....

Once again:

individuals living near coal-fired installations are exposed to a maximum of 1.9 millirems of fly ash radiation yearly. To put these numbers in perspective, the average person encounters 360 millirems of annual "background radiation" from natural and man-made sources,

I don't have to worry about any of this. The cigarettes will probably kill me. However, the very low stress levels that I enjoy by not worrying about anything, will probably balance everything out, and I'll live to my typical average male life expectancy.

I've probably got radon in my basement too.............................and I don't care.

From your link:

"...the group's work has been controversial, and had little credibility with the scientific establishment.^[2]"

"people have overdosed on carrot juice......and gone a funny orange colour!! Too much vitamin K. "

Highly unlikely as carrots are way down the list:

^{http://www.fvleiden.org/publications/vitamin}k_common_foods.pdf

Please stop your lying, and we could do without the yelling too.

You wrote:-

Please stop your lying, and we could do without the yelling too.

So your "standards" are to call me a liar (also you must have good hearing to hear my quiet moderated voice where you live without a telephone!), well you are very simply corrected on that point, look here (many different web sites with the same info, this one belongs to a doctor Jenks):-

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Much-Carrot-Juice-Can-You-Drink?&id=1900104

From this particular web site:-

Carrots are a vegetable that is rich in substances known as carotenoids. These substances are the building blocks for the compound known as vitamin A. These carotenoids are what give carrots their distinctive yellow to orange color. The human body is able to create vitamin A from them internally. Vitamin A has many benefits for the body including an improvement in night vision and liver functions. However, it is possible to overdose on carotenoids and, therefore, vitamin A.

The first noticeable sign that a person has taken an overdose of carotenoids or vitamin A is a yellowing of the skin that may deepen to orange. This condition is often confused with jaundice, which is a sign of potentially life threatening conditions such as liver failure. The major difference is that with carotenosis, the overdose of vitamin A, the whites of the eyes do not change color and this condition is relatively harmless. The change in the color of the skin is quite striking, especially in people who are fair of complexion.

I was telling the truth, which probably really stuck in your craw.....

So:-

Liar, Liar Pants on fire MUST refer to you Mr StandardsGuy in this particular case!!!!!

Try and find a Doctor's website that says the opposite to the above and supports your unmannerly previous comments.......you are in for a long search!!!!!

By the way, if you ever for ANY reason call me a liar again, I will be reporting you to CR4 ADMIN.......there are limits here.....and this is no idle threat!!!!

You exhibit here the worst side of the internet......

Andy,

For cryin' out loud. My comment about carrots was a freaking joke.

Planet CR4 is a damned looney bin.

And people wonder why I binge drink..................

At least I'm honest.

You need to learn to write more clearly then, humour also needs some simple linguistic/writing skills to be mastered.......

I was also called a liar which is really off.......

Do also remember that styles of humour are not always universal!! Many forget that here.....

Just for future reference. If I make a comment about killer carrots on a thread about a coal plant.........................it's a joke.

I wasn't going to binge drink this weekend, but I've changed my mind. What the hell is the point in staying sober?

I'll work on it. How's this?

All people that eat carrots die..................except in Germany. They turn orange and live forever.

"...it is possible to overdose on carotenoids and, therefore, vitamin A."

I agree, but you said vitamin K, so you are wrong again. The use of bold text is the way we raise our voice here, as you should well know for as long as you have been here. You use it almost every post you make, and you use it for that purpose. Don't tell me you don't, we all know it.

"if you ever for ANY reason call me a liar again, I will be reporting you to CR4 ADMIN.......there are limits here.....and this is no idle threat!!!!"

Go ahead if that's your inclination. I hear you loud and clear (with the yelling, and all). And please, stop with the kindergarten songs. It shows your intellectual age.

So there are 2 plugs to be pulled then?

If we would look at the situation in a mechanical sense and we would notice that two parts are causing all this quandary, would one not remove them and replace them with an improved part?

Maybe this was known to the operators and they just played it by the book so that no one can be blamed. These operators are as guilty as any soldier not doing the right thing by his fellow humans.

Building a complete new system is impossible to do on short notice but it will have to take shape and maybe even in my life time. Ruthless pragmatic education (RE?) is a tool which needs to be applied and that world wide.

I'm up to my neck in the trenches and the mighty $ makes me stay there and fight it out. No, I would not like to speak to my lawyer

Good luck to us privileged who can still make a stand, Ky.

And I thought I was cynical! You guys make me seem like Pollyanna!

Do you think this same thing going to happen to the newest one in my area?

Or will this one survive because its supposed to be using a new cleaner technology even though it still uses coal as fuel?

http://www.prairiestateenergycampus.com/

Some more info from source watch:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Prairie_State_Energy_Campus

Yes.

See my very first post. The one that makes me a bigot.

They will be allowed to open, but once they realize that court costs and impossible regulations far outweigh any potential profit, they will close. Bet on it.

We will be getting our dirty coal ash in the tradewinds, as they blow here from China.

That makes us good. We are responsible stewards of the planet............................as long as China continues to loan us money.

Here we go:

http://www.illinoistimes.com/Springfield/article-2698-addicted-to-coal.html

The Sierra Club knows that they don't have to win court cases. All they have to do is to become such an expensive and time consuming pain in the a$$, that opening a coal fired plant is not worth it.

Any energy source that creates CO2 or nuclear waste as a byproduct, is unacceptable.

Hydroelectric is also being targeted.

All I know, is that we had better dream up some really efficient solar cells and storage systems...........................quickly.

When the country starts experiencing rolling blackouts on a regular basis, and the whiners and complainers realize that nothing happens when they hit the light switch, they will take to the streets.............en masse, and demand answers. It's going to be ugly.

It is already ugly! At least thats my view from Illinois. But you're right, it will get much worse due to the pervasive ignorance that surrounds us.

Wish I had a short easy answer. The sound bites that the politicans do not offer any encouragement.

Solar is the most ludicrous of all, there is no way enough land can be used to generate any prctical amount without causing the undesired effect of lowering ambient temperatures.

Hi All,

I'm the reporter that wrote the story for StateImpact Texas about the Sandy Creek plant. I'm looking for expert sources for further reporting I do on this topic and was happy to run across this discussion thread.

I'd like to touch base with anyone who has knowledge of this incident or has an educated opinion about it. I can be reached at MBuchele-at-KUT-dot-org.

Thanks for reading and taking an interest!

Mose

Hey, wait a minute. Not so fast.

Are there any theories floating around?

Any idea why they're not fixing it?

Anything?

What is theory but an idea?

Right now, the video shows that the boiler failed.

No it doesn't. It simply shows a portion of the commissioning process. Here's the heading of the video:

For weeks ahead of the accident, steam rose from the plant as part of its commissioning process. This video, taken over a month before the accident, captured some of that process:

Somethings wrong with this whole scenario.

I don't know if anyone else here has worked in a steam plant. I have. It was commissioned in 1945, and everything was done manually. We brought it up and shut it down lots of times without incident.

This plant would be covered up with overlapping safety features that would prevent catastrophic failure, even if someone intentionally tried to sabotage it. So yeah................................what happened?

Here are the turbines. Maybe we can figure out what didn't happen.

http://www.hitachipowersystems.us/products/boiler_feedpump_turbines/index.html

The Dirty Truth: Some Biofuels are More Polluting than Fossil Fuels!

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Biofuels/The-Dirty-Truth-Some-Biofuels-are-More-Polluting-than-Fossil-Fuels.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+oilpricecom+%28Oil+Price.com+Daily+News+Update%29

More to add to the diverted train; other amusing read for the ages.

Black steam?

From experience, I see unfired coal.

Remember that the coal is pulverized to dust before injection into the stream.

http://bvinternblog.posterous.com/?tag=steamblow

An important thing to remember about these steam blows is that they help clean out the piping system prior to the start up of the steam turbine

Here's the original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g060Kme018

At this point, the boilers are not even up and running yet.

I understand a blowdown and the reason for doing it.

I have seen some unbelievable things expelled with this cleaning.

I goofed. The youtube video was lifted from the stateimpact article. Although I don't think it is footage of the actual accident....................if there was one.

There's an email address for a guy named hank under the video. I wonder if he would tell me what's going on.

What the heck..............I'll shoot him an email and see what happens. I'll let you guys know if I get a response.

At this point, the boilers are not even up and running yet.

What created the steam?

At the beginning of these plants, B&V recruited me as a Field QA Manager ( a job I refused) to specifically work with "the devil's steel", P91. Black & Veatch is a fine company, one I am sure did their best in design & oversight of construction, but I seen suppliers & construction companies of that era drop the ball.

P91 was little understood then and still today, those with a knowledge of it's pecularities is of a limited pool.

Maybe we should look to a P91 failure!

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/heating-p91-boiler-pipe

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/comparing-materials-for-high-temperature-steam-piping

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15890979/P91

http://www.psimedia.info/Industry%20Alert.pdf

http://www.ommi.co.uk/etd/ETD-EPRI-%20P91%20Failures.pdf

http://www.xedf.com/itw/education/success_stories/story27.php.htm

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/13573/P11-P22-P9-and-P91-Material

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/16004166/Creep_failure-in-P91

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/comparing-materials-for-high-temperature-steam-piping

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about commissioning a new plant. My thought was that they were using the auxiliary boilers for these steam blows, with the main boilers still off line.

If the video of the black smoke is footage of the actual accident taking place, I don't think it would represent a catastrophic failure. I didn't hear any accompanying explosion.

I contacted the guy at Aarding to see if he would give me any info.

I know you don't like the political angle.

But do you find it ironic that no will talk about the nature of this accident, and the new start date happens to coincide with the possibility of a new, (friendlier), administration being in place?

Perhaps the reason they don't want to talk about it, is that everyone will know that the relatively minor repairs, (if there are any), won't take until 2013 to complete. A stall tactic. That's what I would do, if it was my plant.

I'm probably getting too close for comfort, and should shut up now.

"I know you don't like the political angle".

I can never see how the t**b*gg*rs & their ilk see a conspiracy in everything.

There are conspiracies, I agree and I see them in things, but not this.

It reminds me of all of the posturing dubya did with his "ecofriendly" ranch house.

Would you prefer no taxes at all? What about the Intercoastal Waterway off of Brunswick, NC, and most of the US. I have nothing aainst hunting and advocate fishing as a gentleman's sport.

I see you fish, I subsidize that and hunting. Even growing up in the country, subsidized sports disgusts me as a huge waste of my tax dollars and increased automobile insurance rates because of the deer farming business here in the USA.

Political decisions happen all the time. From the smallest company to entire nations.

There is also a thing called, not being able to see the forest for the trees.

While we sit here and try to chase down a technical answer, it's quite possible that the political one is sitting right in front of our faces. Denying the possibility, doesn't make it go away.

We've gone from bigot to t**b*gg*r...................and you say that I spew hatred?

Why are you hiding in the GOP? Come out of the closet.

Where did I call you a t**b*gg*r?

Methinks you are extremely paranoid.

Read what is said. please, not whatyou want to hear or believe.

Ever here of the principles of expectancy?

If I offended you, I will not apologize, and let the discourse and thoughts continue.

Why do you persistently bring political b*llsh*t into a technical discussion?

No difference.

You insulted me by stealing the reason and content of the thread I posted.

Do you do, have ever done, or know anything technical that you cannot pull off of the internet.

I am out of "my closet", there is sure a bunch of the doom and nay sayers today, who don't even know they are in their closet.

What's wrong with you?

I didn't steal anything.

Who cares if the answer behind a prolonged shut down is political? I don't.

Why are you acting as if the possibility can't exist? It's a theory..............that's all.

One that I think is very possible.

I'm sorry to say this, but you have been out of line most of the time in this thread. We do not at this point know whether the reports are simply fragmentary and confused, or whether some concealment is going on. I hope Mose keeps inquiring. In any event, politicking is a salient possibility. If you don't see that, you are hopelessly naive.

A credible, though not yet certain, scenario for this event has already been given.

So now it becomes a conspiracy and someone destroyed the "inners" of the plant causing an environmental showdown.

Where have I EVER suggested anything about a "conspiracy"? Jeez, must you be so dense?

What is a T**b*gg*r???

Thanks in advance.

From wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_bag_(sexual_act)

Furthermore. When someone accuses me of being a bigot...................anything I say sounds stupid and cliche.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of your tactics, and I'm tired of you. I'm tired of defending myself against your baseless claims.

I am more than happy to deal with you face to face.........................and we will.

You will be astounded at how many colors we are. Regardless of our skin.............we are red, white and blue................and guess what? F^ck you.

Be careful what you wish for Kram; he likes it "binary".

I can't leave. I'm addicted to the abuse....................and endless stream of stupid.

I belong here.

That's not to say that the engineering questions don't get answered.....................but all answers come with attitude. It's cool.

If anyone calls me a bigot on here again, or insinuates that I'm a t**b*gg*r, I'm not going to defend myself by lining up my black friends and taking a picture. I'm going pure offense. May the best man win. I'm tired of this $hit.

There are plenty of offensive names that I qualify for, and will accept. Take bigot and racist off your list.

Well, most of your post was on topic.

Now that I've had my personal weekly blow out, I'm back.

Your politics don't matter. I'm convinced that they are all liars and thieves.

I don't think the video depicts the actual failure either. The secrecy is suspect....................at least in my mind. There are only so many things that can go wrong with a steam plant, and I think we can safely assume that there was not an explosion. Someone would know about that.

That said, the Hitachi turbines have had big problems in the past, but one would think that those problems would have been rectified by now..............nor do I think that Hitachi would install potentially bad turbines. It would be another major lawsuit waiting to happen.

As angry as it makes some people on here, I think my theory may be at least partially right.

As frustrating as it may be, I think that official policy at this time, is zipped lips and we will attempt to open in 2013.

I don't think we are going to be able to chase down a technical reason, (at least for now), on CR4. Overall, this has been a good thread. Everyone loves a good mystery/conspiracy.

If I hear back from the guy I emailed, I'll let you guys know.

Another possible angle, is to talk to the people behind the financing. They are not tech people, and may have information to lend that they are not even aware that they have.

The bottom line here though, is that I think that the people that are keeping this a secret, intend to keep it a secret. And they will.

I was hoping that Mose might come back. I'll bet he knows more than he's told us.

Nah. He's fishing. If he knew more than we did, he'd be exposing a bombshell and probably be looking for a Pulitzer, not hanging out here.

I think we'll eventually have an answer.................and it will be both political, and boring.

Like Tornado pointed out. To think that politics doesn't come into play, is hopelessly naive.

Anyone that does business in the US, knows that you can't open a lemonade stand without greasing the sweaty palms of some political machine. It's just the way things work.

The bottom line here is, (if we are able to look at things objectively), this company is breaking no laws. They can delay opening as long as they want.

If the republicans get the presidency, and sweep the senate, 2013 will give them enough time to replace the judges that are siding with the Sierra Club. In the meantime, there will be no more court cases.

If this scenario pans out, the EPA will also have their wings clipped by 2013.

Now.................if others are willing to look at this objectively, know that I am not making my statements from a republican cheerleading section, and have paid attention to what happens with political power swings in this country....................they will know that this hypotheses is not out of the question.

I'd rather have an answer that I don't like, than no answer at all.