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What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/25/2012 5:32 PM

I hadn't heard about this until today whilst I was searching.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/01/24/what-happened-at-the-sandy-creek-power-plant/

Anyone aware of it happening and maybe have some insight or knowledge.

I have seen a lot of blowdowns post new build or after repair outages through the years, but never knew of a plant to be so damaged, it could not be repaired and brought on line.

The look of things with that video are not good!

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#1

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/25/2012 6:52 PM

They may be trying to collect the insurance money and get out of there.

Beats guaranteed bankruptcy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aTf5gjvNvo

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#2
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/25/2012 7:01 PM

Why do you have to bring politics into it?

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#3
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/25/2012 9:50 PM

No doubt they were already there....

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#4
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 7:03 AM

It's not politics, it's a fact. I'm sorry if you find it disturbing.

If I had spent millions building a coal fired plant, only to find out it would be run into bankruptcy by the EPA, I would consider a catastrophic failure, followed by an insurance payout to cover my construction costs, a godsend.

Do you suppose that the fact that they're being so secretive about it, doesn't involve politics?

Don't ask the question, if you can't handle the likely truth.

We'll probably never know the exact mechanism behind the failure, but I'll bet you good money that they won't be fixing it.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

The only thing political about my post, was that the promise to bankrupt new coal fired plants, happened to come from a politician. One that can follow through on the promise.

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#5

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 9:12 AM
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#6
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 11:28 AM

Thanks for starting this thread. I know it's not good news, but if you click on my first link in the last post, and scroll down to financing and check out the companies................the movement of the money will make your eyes bleed.

It makes me want to file a freedom of information request to see if these loans will be forgiven, at taxpayer's expense. I won't upset you any further with my posts, but I'll be watching this one closely.

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#7

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 11:46 AM

I have had the "MISFORTUNE" of working with a couple of these companies in the past, but that is irrelevant. The obvious serious problem with the blowdown spewing out unfired fuel, particulates, etc, caught my eye.

Look to GW Bush, Halliburton, Zachery, and TXU for the real insight.

Remember when TXU scrapped their plans to build the new dirtburners around Dallas?

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#8
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 12:09 PM

I'm not saying that these companies are good or bad, nor whether shutting down coal is good or bad................it just is.

I just found this. Sandy Creek was the last one standing, and hanging by a thread. I don't think it made financial sense for them to try to move forward. Of course it could be repaired and brought on line....................but it's not worth the trouble.

Regardless of the politics, the outright hypocrisy is outrageous.

Coal Projects Sponsored by Dynegy / LS Power

On hold or cancelled

Active Sandy Creek Plant (Texas)

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#9
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 12:16 PM

Plum Point is an example, the engineering firm for that one who hired me, has deep roots in Odessa, TX; after finding there were no reasons to reject a piece of equipment, and after paying me and others thousands of dollars, I had to walk away to salvage my integrity.

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#10
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 12:30 PM

You shouldn't start threads that involve companies that you have a personal hatred for. Tempers are bound to flair.

You asked a question. The answers I came up with, are based on the facts as I see them.

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#11
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 12:43 PM

What an ass you are, you are the dying gasp of the great white american bigot.

I never spewed hatred, you are the one who constantly does.

For the record, I am a 65 year old white moderate/progressive GOP committeman in the great state of PA.

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#12
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 1:01 PM

Good for you.

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#45
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 3:47 PM

I just found this. Sandy Creek was the last one standing, and hanging by a thread.

What are you talking about? There are 15 in Colorado alone. source

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#46
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 4:32 PM

I didn't mean the last one standing in the country.

These were all new projects that were sponsored by Dynagy/ LS Power.

All had been targeted by the Sierra Club. As of the writing of the list, the only one that hadn't been postponed or cancelled, was Sandy Creek.

It appears as if that problem has been rectified.

Sorry for the confusion.

If the Sierra Club had any brains, they could at least allow the new, clean burning plants to open, and insist that an old dirty one gets shut down in exchange. But no............................the old dirty plants that have been grandfathered in, will continue to burn. Good job Sierra Club. Way to go EPA.

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#47
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 5:13 PM

This all has pretty far reaching implications. Not the least of which, is the fact that the US electrical grid is pretty maxed out. I don't think it's out of the question, that all of these new (energy hungry) manufacturing jobs that we're hearing about, will fail to materialize due to the inability to feed them the required power. Texas is getting very nervous.

This is a little OT, but an interesting read.

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

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#54
In reply to #47

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 11:05 PM

Thanks for the article, I've saved the PDF for reading later.

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#116
In reply to #47

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 1:45 PM

I did take a closer read of this article, and notice it was from 2003. How has the situation changed since then? I presume the large inter-connecting grid is still poorly coordinated? THe only reason it hasn't max'ed out is due to reduced energy consumption due to our recession, depression or whatever?

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#13

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 2:00 PM

Somebody decided to build a power plant. That's all about money.

There is just no way that you will EVER be able to separate money and politics, in our present society.

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#14
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 2:15 PM

Nope. After reading the financing links, and seeing that the banks that financed the project received billions in bailout money from the same government that runs the EPA.....................I'm more confused than ever. It looks like a giant, money merry go round. And it looks like this project, as well as others, are going to sit abandoned for the foreseeable future, if not forever. It's just crazy.

If the government is going to bail out banks, and simultaneously promise to bankrupt any new coal plants.....................................Gee, I don't know..............maybe they should stipulate that the banks don't finance coal projects.

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#15
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 2:54 PM

YOUR/OUR tax dollars at work. Only problem is they aren't working for us.

I'm marking this OT since it's not about the plant.

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#16
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 3:08 PM

Like I said...........I'm glad he started the thread. You know how I get when I decide to dig into something.

Regardless of where anyone falls in the political spectrum, shouldn't matter. We're all being equally duped.

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#17
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 3:31 PM

That certainly explains some of the replies....................my brother-in-law is also a an angry progressive GOP member

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#18
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 4:32 PM

That entire post is perplexing. He should have left it at, I'm an ass. I hear that all the time. I reread my posts, and I still can't figure out how I magically became a great white american hate spewing bigot.

If someone wants to know what happened to a coal plant that mysteriously shut down, there's really no way to come up with an accurate answer without taking a look at the politics.........................and the money. Sad but true.

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#19
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 4:59 PM

Agreed!

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#20
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 5:42 PM

Hi Mark

Could you name one industry in which such tactics are not used? Be it pharma, weapons, oil, you name it. It is a form of cancer in my eyes and it looks like the patient will have to follow a strict diet or die. The life support system should be turned off. Were is that plug?

I would love to follow all the links that have been provided here but I lack the time to do so. Like qaqcpipeman I would like to know how this could happen in a technical sense. Sorry if the answer to this was given in one of the links, I would like to see them here and not be part of the splitting hair division.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your tenacity to point out the failures of the existing system and the many traps it provides for the gullible.

Were is that plug?

Kind Regards, Ky.

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#21
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 6:52 PM

Hi ky,

Unfortunately, I cannot name an industry in which some sort of unholy alliance hasn't been established with government. Globally.

I would also like to know the technical reason for this plant shutdown. I suspect that there isn't one that is worthy of release to a skeptical public. What I do know...................is that after all of the work and money that was dumped into this place, there is no technical reason that it can't be repaired and put into service.

If we're going to quit coal..................we need to quit it!!!!! These big money games are killing us. To think that this massive, expensive, brand new project is going to sit vacant behind locked gates forever, without ever producing a drop of energy or any jobs beyond it's construction, pi$$es me off to no end.

In this particular case, the government bailed out the banks to the tune of billions. Those very same banks loaned the money to LS to build the plant. Then the government sides with the Sierra Club to bring about the shutdown of two other plants, as well as making this one not worth opening due to the environmental hurdles.

I don't get it.

Oh. And then we've got us idiot citizens split into two camps:

One that says the government is in bed with the environmentalists.

Another that says the government is in bed with big industry.

Let me answer both sides simultaneously, for the record.

YOU'RE RIGHT!!!

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#22
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 7:23 PM

Since everyone is pissing in each other's liver mush today, I pray for the over subsidized and unsafe Nukes to be mothballed once and for all also.

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#23
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 7:50 PM

"Since everyone is pissing in each other's liver mush today"
Am I reading the right thread? Or am I just so dense that I cant see it?

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#24
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 7:54 PM

What's liver mush?

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#26
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:00 PM

Ponhaus or scrapple, a PA Dutch and Carolina delicacy.

Corn mush and minced liver fried in lard and eaten topped with Maple Syrup in PA and in a breakfast sandwich in the Carolinas.

I needed to inject some humor here.

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#31
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:12 PM

Man,

I was raised on a farm in Arkansas and I never heard of it. Must'a been a Yankee dish.

Never got used to squirrel-n-dumplings either.

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#32
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:21 PM

What about groundhog stew?

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#33
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 10:04 PM

Nope. Goat and Raccoon are good if barbecued.

We used to slaughter our own beef and pork. Had a smoke house, etc.

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#34
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 10:06 PM

Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

It's becoming the only sense that makes sense.

We are the 99%.

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#35
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 10:12 PM

After I ended up on Wicki, I seen Mock Turtle Soup, and even though it has been a long day, and I was hungry, the contents turned me off for anything solid.

Being in a hotel 300 days a year lately, only the microwave popcorn was all I wanted.

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#28
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:04 PM

It was meant to inject some humor, and I guess you did not see the vatious off topic checks that were given out.

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#25
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 7:56 PM

I'd take nuke over coal...

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#27
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:03 PM

Guess that you never worked on new build or outages at Nukes.

I actually see no difference other than nukes are much, much more heavily subsidized.

In fact, what isn't as has been posted and we do have the lowest tax rate of any industrialized nation.

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#40
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 12:36 PM

What many forget is that coal has a very low level of radiation in it, forget CO2, the sheer volume of coal burnt means that it also contributes a significant amount of radiation being released.....

Nuke Power stations that blow out a fraction of that would be shut down immediately....

Look here:-

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

Here you can read:-

What about your coal burners now eh?

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#42
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 1:04 PM

You're on a roll..................massive drive by shootings. Radiation poisoning from coal.................

I heard that eating carrots eventually leads to death.

Did you read the article?

McBride and his co-authors estimated that individuals living near coal-fired installations are exposed to a maximum of 1.9 millirems of fly ash radiation yearly. To put these numbers in perspective, the average person encounters 360 millirems of annual "background radiation" from natural and man-made sources, including substances in Earth's crust, cosmic rays, residue from nuclear tests and smoke detectors.

Dana Christensen, associate lab director for energy and engineering at ORNL, says that health risks from radiation in coal by-products are low.

The technology exists to burn coal relatively cleanly. The last leg of the argument against it, is CO2..............................and they're winning.

Engineers and realists across the land are left with nothing left to do, but beat their heads against a wall.

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#60
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 9:25 AM

What I said was true, a nuke would be taken off line if it released a tiny part of the radio activity of a coal burner. Extra radiation, no matter how low, is not a good thing, surely everyone knows that, 3 mile island was a good example for the USA.....We had Tchernobyl.....

As to the effects on humans nearby, that was an opinion not a fact as nobody really knows 100%.....as you yourself wrote:-

McBride and his co-authors estimated.......

I personally won't accept "estimated", if you do, that's fine with me. But if I was living downwind of such a plant, I would want to know REAL facts!!! Good and bad.....But I am far too careful to even think of buying a house near to any big plant!! If you are too, then you think the same way as I do....

Its another coffin nail for burning coal as we do it right now.....maybe in the future we can clean it up better and use it as the world's known resources exceed for at least enough for 300 years....at least it did the last time I checked, maybe more today!!!

Calculations by Joseph Mangano-who has authored 19 medical journal articles and a book on Low Level Radiation and Immune Disease-would suggest that the effects are farther reaching that many will agree to. At least following his recommendations will not result in unnecessary deaths.....

You should read this website fully, especially with regard to strontium 90 in baby teeth and then of dying of cancer before 50!! Its quite interesting.....See here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_and_Public_Health_Project

Also I never mentioned radiation poisoning, only you did, read my post again, I selected my words most carefully (as always) in case someone misunderstood what I wrote, as you did and do, again, and again and again....if thats what you need to get your rocks off, then carry on.......no skin off my nose!!

With regard to carrots, don't forget that an "over dosage" of many simple foodstuffs is bad for us....people have overdosed on carrot juice......and gone a funny orange colour!! Too much vitamin K.....which helps in causing blood to clot, so I would guess here, but it could possibly cause a heart attack or similar I possibly....

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#61
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 9:47 AM

Once again:

individuals living near coal-fired installations are exposed to a maximum of 1.9 millirems of fly ash radiation yearly. To put these numbers in perspective, the average person encounters 360 millirems of annual "background radiation" from natural and man-made sources,

I don't have to worry about any of this. The cigarettes will probably kill me. However, the very low stress levels that I enjoy by not worrying about anything, will probably balance everything out, and I'll live to my typical average male life expectancy.

I've probably got radon in my basement too.............................and I don't care.

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#69
In reply to #60

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 12:04 PM

From your link:

"...the group's work has been controversial, and had little credibility with the scientific establishment.[2]"

"people have overdosed on carrot juice......and gone a funny orange colour!! Too much vitamin K. "

Highly unlikely as carrots are way down the list:

http://www.fvleiden.org/publications/vitamink_common_foods.pdf

Please stop your lying, and we could do without the yelling too.

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#89
In reply to #69

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 7:51 PM

You wrote:-

Please stop your lying, and we could do without the yelling too.

So your "standards" are to call me a liar (also you must have good hearing to hear my quiet moderated voice where you live without a telephone!), well you are very simply corrected on that point, look here (many different web sites with the same info, this one belongs to a doctor Jenks):-

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Much-Carrot-Juice-Can-You-Drink?&id=1900104

From this particular web site:-

Carrots are a vegetable that is rich in substances known as carotenoids. These substances are the building blocks for the compound known as vitamin A. These carotenoids are what give carrots their distinctive yellow to orange color. The human body is able to create vitamin A from them internally. Vitamin A has many benefits for the body including an improvement in night vision and liver functions. However, it is possible to overdose on carotenoids and, therefore, vitamin A.

The first noticeable sign that a person has taken an overdose of carotenoids or vitamin A is a yellowing of the skin that may deepen to orange. This condition is often confused with jaundice, which is a sign of potentially life threatening conditions such as liver failure. The major difference is that with carotenosis, the overdose of vitamin A, the whites of the eyes do not change color and this condition is relatively harmless. The change in the color of the skin is quite striking, especially in people who are fair of complexion.

I was telling the truth, which probably really stuck in your craw.....

So:-

Liar, Liar Pants on fire MUST refer to you Mr StandardsGuy in this particular case!!!!!

Try and find a Doctor's website that says the opposite to the above and supports your unmannerly previous comments.......you are in for a long search!!!!!

By the way, if you ever for ANY reason call me a liar again, I will be reporting you to CR4 ADMIN.......there are limits here.....and this is no idle threat!!!!

You exhibit here the worst side of the internet......

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#91
In reply to #89

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 8:26 PM

Andy,

For cryin' out loud. My comment about carrots was a freaking joke.

Planet CR4 is a damned looney bin.

And people wonder why I binge drink..................

At least I'm honest.

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#92
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 8:55 PM

You need to learn to write more clearly then, humour also needs some simple linguistic/writing skills to be mastered.......

I was also called a liar which is really off.......

Do also remember that styles of humour are not always universal!! Many forget that here.....

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#95
In reply to #92

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 9:19 PM

Just for future reference. If I make a comment about killer carrots on a thread about a coal plant.........................it's a joke.

I wasn't going to binge drink this weekend, but I've changed my mind. What the hell is the point in staying sober?

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#104
In reply to #92

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 3:48 AM

I'll work on it. How's this?

All people that eat carrots die..................except in Germany. They turn orange and live forever.

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#93
In reply to #89

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 9:09 PM

"...it is possible to overdose on carotenoids and, therefore, vitamin A."

I agree, but you said vitamin K, so you are wrong again. The use of bold text is the way we raise our voice here, as you should well know for as long as you have been here. You use it almost every post you make, and you use it for that purpose. Don't tell me you don't, we all know it.

"if you ever for ANY reason call me a liar again, I will be reporting you to CR4 ADMIN.......there are limits here.....and this is no idle threat!!!!"

Go ahead if that's your inclination. I hear you loud and clear (with the yelling, and all). And please, stop with the kindergarten songs. It shows your intellectual age.

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#123
In reply to #89

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/30/2012 4:36 AM

psst.....Looks orange to me.

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#30
In reply to #21

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:09 PM

So there are 2 plugs to be pulled then?

If we would look at the situation in a mechanical sense and we would notice that two parts are causing all this quandary, would one not remove them and replace them with an improved part?

Maybe this was known to the operators and they just played it by the book so that no one can be blamed. These operators are as guilty as any soldier not doing the right thing by his fellow humans.

Building a complete new system is impossible to do on short notice but it will have to take shape and maybe even in my life time. Ruthless pragmatic education (RE?) is a tool which needs to be applied and that world wide.

I'm up to my neck in the trenches and the mighty $ makes me stay there and fight it out. No, I would not like to speak to my lawyer

Good luck to us privileged who can still make a stand, Ky.

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#36
In reply to #30

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 10:27 PM

And I thought I was cynical! You guys make me seem like Pollyanna!

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#29

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/26/2012 8:06 PM
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#37

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 7:12 AM

Do you think this same thing going to happen to the newest one in my area?

Or will this one survive because its supposed to be using a new cleaner technology even though it still uses coal as fuel?

http://www.prairiestateenergycampus.com/

Some more info from source watch:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Prairie_State_Energy_Campus

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 8:35 AM

Yes.

See my very first post. The one that makes me a bigot.

They will be allowed to open, but once they realize that court costs and impossible regulations far outweigh any potential profit, they will close. Bet on it.

We will be getting our dirty coal ash in the tradewinds, as they blow here from China.

That makes us good. We are responsible stewards of the planet............................as long as China continues to loan us money.

Here we go:

http://www.illinoistimes.com/Springfield/article-2698-addicted-to-coal.html

The Sierra Club knows that they don't have to win court cases. All they have to do is to become such an expensive and time consuming pain in the a$$, that opening a coal fired plant is not worth it.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 11:01 AM

Any energy source that creates CO2 or nuclear waste as a byproduct, is unacceptable.

Hydroelectric is also being targeted.

All I know, is that we had better dream up some really efficient solar cells and storage systems...........................quickly.

When the country starts experiencing rolling blackouts on a regular basis, and the whiners and complainers realize that nothing happens when they hit the light switch, they will take to the streets.............en masse, and demand answers. It's going to be ugly.

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#41
In reply to #39

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 12:57 PM

It is already ugly! At least thats my view from Illinois. But you're right, it will get much worse due to the pervasive ignorance that surrounds us.

Wish I had a short easy answer. The sound bites that the politicans do not offer any encouragement.

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#51
In reply to #39

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 9:16 PM

Solar is the most ludicrous of all, there is no way enough land can be used to generate any prctical amount without causing the undesired effect of lowering ambient temperatures.

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#50
In reply to #38

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 9:15 PM

Now be nice, I thought we made up.

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#56
In reply to #50

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 6:45 AM

No worries. I'm not going to stop being a smart a$$ though.

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#43

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 1:27 PM

Hi All,

I'm the reporter that wrote the story for StateImpact Texas about the Sandy Creek plant. I'm looking for expert sources for further reporting I do on this topic and was happy to run across this discussion thread.

I'd like to touch base with anyone who has knowledge of this incident or has an educated opinion about it. I can be reached at MBuchele-at-KUT-dot-org.

Thanks for reading and taking an interest!

Mose

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 2:20 PM

Hey, wait a minute. Not so fast.

Are there any theories floating around?

Any idea why they're not fixing it?

Anything?

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#53
In reply to #44

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/27/2012 9:18 PM

What is theory but an idea?

Right now, the video shows that the boiler failed.

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#57
In reply to #53

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 6:52 AM

No it doesn't. It simply shows a portion of the commissioning process. Here's the heading of the video:

For weeks ahead of the accident, steam rose from the plant as part of its commissioning process. This video, taken over a month before the accident, captured some of that process:

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 7:46 AM

Somethings wrong with this whole scenario.

I don't know if anyone else here has worked in a steam plant. I have. It was commissioned in 1945, and everything was done manually. We brought it up and shut it down lots of times without incident.

This plant would be covered up with overlapping safety features that would prevent catastrophic failure, even if someone intentionally tried to sabotage it. So yeah................................what happened?

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 8:02 AM

Here are the turbines. Maybe we can figure out what didn't happen.

http://www.hitachipowersystems.us/products/boiler_feedpump_turbines/index.html

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#66
In reply to #58

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 11:37 AM
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#63
In reply to #57

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 11:18 AM

Black steam?

From experience, I see unfired coal.

Remember that the coal is pulverized to dust before injection into the stream.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 11:29 AM

http://bvinternblog.posterous.com/?tag=steamblow

An important thing to remember about these steam blows is that they help clean out the piping system prior to the start up of the steam turbine

Here's the original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g060Kme018

At this point, the boilers are not even up and running yet.

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#68
In reply to #64

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 11:48 AM

I understand a blowdown and the reason for doing it.

I have seen some unbelievable things expelled with this cleaning.

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#70
In reply to #64

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 12:07 PM

I goofed. The youtube video was lifted from the stateimpact article. Although I don't think it is footage of the actual accident....................if there was one.

There's an email address for a guy named hank under the video. I wonder if he would tell me what's going on.

What the heck..............I'll shoot him an email and see what happens. I'll let you guys know if I get a response.

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#71
In reply to #64

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 12:23 PM

At this point, the boilers are not even up and running yet.

What created the steam?

At the beginning of these plants, B&V recruited me as a Field QA Manager ( a job I refused) to specifically work with "the devil's steel", P91. Black & Veatch is a fine company, one I am sure did their best in design & oversight of construction, but I seen suppliers & construction companies of that era drop the ball.

P91 was little understood then and still today, those with a knowledge of it's pecularities is of a limited pool.

Maybe we should look to a P91 failure!

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/heating-p91-boiler-pipe

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/comparing-materials-for-high-temperature-steam-piping

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15890979/P91

http://www.psimedia.info/Industry%20Alert.pdf

http://www.ommi.co.uk/etd/ETD-EPRI-%20P91%20Failures.pdf

http://www.xedf.com/itw/education/success_stories/story27.php.htm

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/13573/P11-P22-P9-and-P91-Material

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/16004166/Creep_failure-in-P91

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/comparing-materials-for-high-temperature-steam-piping

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 12:42 PM

I'm not going to pretend I know anything about commissioning a new plant. My thought was that they were using the auxiliary boilers for these steam blows, with the main boilers still off line.

If the video of the black smoke is footage of the actual accident taking place, I don't think it would represent a catastrophic failure. I didn't hear any accompanying explosion.

I contacted the guy at Aarding to see if he would give me any info.

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#73
In reply to #71

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 1:12 PM

I know you don't like the political angle.

But do you find it ironic that no will talk about the nature of this accident, and the new start date happens to coincide with the possibility of a new, (friendlier), administration being in place?

Perhaps the reason they don't want to talk about it, is that everyone will know that the relatively minor repairs, (if there are any), won't take until 2013 to complete. A stall tactic. That's what I would do, if it was my plant.

I'm probably getting too close for comfort, and should shut up now.

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 1:23 PM

"I know you don't like the political angle".

I can never see how the t**b*gg*rs & their ilk see a conspiracy in everything.

There are conspiracies, I agree and I see them in things, but not this.

It reminds me of all of the posturing dubya did with his "ecofriendly" ranch house.

Would you prefer no taxes at all? What about the Intercoastal Waterway off of Brunswick, NC, and most of the US. I have nothing aainst hunting and advocate fishing as a gentleman's sport.

I see you fish, I subsidize that and hunting. Even growing up in the country, subsidized sports disgusts me as a huge waste of my tax dollars and increased automobile insurance rates because of the deer farming business here in the USA.

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#75
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 1:47 PM

Political decisions happen all the time. From the smallest company to entire nations.

There is also a thing called, not being able to see the forest for the trees.

While we sit here and try to chase down a technical answer, it's quite possible that the political one is sitting right in front of our faces. Denying the possibility, doesn't make it go away.

We've gone from bigot to t**b*gg*r...................and you say that I spew hatred?

Why are you hiding in the GOP? Come out of the closet.

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#76
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 2:47 PM

Where did I call you a t**b*gg*r?

Methinks you are extremely paranoid.

Read what is said. please, not whatyou want to hear or believe.

Ever here of the principles of expectancy?

If I offended you, I will not apologize, and let the discourse and thoughts continue.

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#77
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 2:52 PM

Why are you using the term t**b*gg*r at all?

I'm still exploring possible explanations for the plant closure.

Is your real name Arlen Specter?

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#78
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 3:01 PM

Why do you persistently bring political b*llsh*t into a technical discussion?

No difference.

You insulted me by stealing the reason and content of the thread I posted.

Do you do, have ever done, or know anything technical that you cannot pull off of the internet.

I am out of "my closet", there is sure a bunch of the doom and nay sayers today, who don't even know they are in their closet.

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#79
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 3:43 PM

What's wrong with you?

I didn't steal anything.

Who cares if the answer behind a prolonged shut down is political? I don't.

Why are you acting as if the possibility can't exist? It's a theory..............that's all.

One that I think is very possible.

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#80
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 3:50 PM

I will give you a no OT on that.

I still am damned curious what the black plume is made up of and what may have caused the fasilure resulting in it.

I will get sh*tty again since you cannot stop being demeaning, evident from many forums you have commented on, and ask you if you are off of your meds.

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#81
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 3:58 PM

I'm sorry to say this, but you have been out of line most of the time in this thread. We do not at this point know whether the reports are simply fragmentary and confused, or whether some concealment is going on. I hope Mose keeps inquiring. In any event, politicking is a salient possibility. If you don't see that, you are hopelessly naive.

A credible, though not yet certain, scenario for this event has already been given.

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#82
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 4:14 PM

So now it becomes a conspiracy and someone destroyed the "inners" of the plant causing an environmental showdown.

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#94
In reply to #82

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 9:10 PM

Where have I EVER suggested anything about a "conspiracy"? Jeez, must you be so dense?

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#90
In reply to #76

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 7:56 PM

What is a T**b*gg*r???

Thanks in advance.

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#98
In reply to #90

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/28/2012 11:30 PM
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#99
In reply to #98

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 12:06 AM

Furthermore. When someone accuses me of being a bigot...................anything I say sounds stupid and cliche.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of your tactics, and I'm tired of you. I'm tired of defending myself against your baseless claims.

I am more than happy to deal with you face to face.........................and we will.

You will be astounded at how many colors we are. Regardless of our skin.............we are red, white and blue................and guess what? F^ck you.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 12:33 AM

Be careful what you wish for Kram; he likes it "binary".

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#101
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 12:43 AM

I can't leave. I'm addicted to the abuse....................and endless stream of stupid.

I belong here.

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#102
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 1:10 AM

That's not to say that the engineering questions don't get answered.....................but all answers come with attitude. It's cool.

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#103
In reply to #102

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 2:24 AM

If anyone calls me a bigot on here again, or insinuates that I'm a t**b*gg*r, I'm not going to defend myself by lining up my black friends and taking a picture. I'm going pure offense. May the best man win. I'm tired of this $hit.

There are plenty of offensive names that I qualify for, and will accept. Take bigot and racist off your list.

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#105
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 4:37 AM

Regardless of how they got here. I love my grandkids. Black, white, Latino, and Romanian gypsy. I love them all. Without bringing my personal friends into it, I really don't like being called a bigot. I'm the big dummy in the middle.

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#106
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 4:59 AM

To explain my anti-government stance, my daughters have reached the conclusion that they can meet someone, fall in love, have a kid, and the government will pay for it....................they're right. I can't win. Not only does the government pay for it, but they keep on paying. I'm fighting a losing battle. It's frustrating. I can't urge them into responsibility while they're getting free money. That pretty much sums up my world.

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#114
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Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 11:03 AM

Nice tribe.

Just like my house, Heinz 57 varieties.

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#115
In reply to #114

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 1:39 PM

Now that every one has had their rants and b*****, and now feel a bit better for it . . . (we do feel better don't we?)

So, back to the original question, What happened at Sandy Creek?

The video posted is a Steam blow out, which loosened some dust and debris inside a piping system and blew a dramatic cloud of black smoke. I do not think this was the main event or accident to cause the plant startup to be delayed or stalled.

There is some alleged incident or accident that the plant owners and operators do not want to air in public. There are some guesses as to whether there might be a conspiracy behind the incident. But until someone actually behind the fence gives some information, these are just guesses.

For the record, I consider myself a recovering republican. I probably agree with 5% of the 99% (Occupy Wall Street), maybe 25%of the Tea Bagger group, and have strong leanings to the Libertarian party (but disagree whether the Government should try to legislate morality. I think the Gov't should legislate morality.)

My main question is whether this thread will generate any light, or is it just going to be heat and smoke?

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#118
In reply to #115

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 5:24 PM

Well, most of your post was on topic.

Now that I've had my personal weekly blow out, I'm back.

Your politics don't matter. I'm convinced that they are all liars and thieves.

I don't think the video depicts the actual failure either. The secrecy is suspect....................at least in my mind. There are only so many things that can go wrong with a steam plant, and I think we can safely assume that there was not an explosion. Someone would know about that.

That said, the Hitachi turbines have had big problems in the past, but one would think that those problems would have been rectified by now..............nor do I think that Hitachi would install potentially bad turbines. It would be another major lawsuit waiting to happen.

As angry as it makes some people on here, I think my theory may be at least partially right.

As frustrating as it may be, I think that official policy at this time, is zipped lips and we will attempt to open in 2013.

I don't think we are going to be able to chase down a technical reason, (at least for now), on CR4. Overall, this has been a good thread. Everyone loves a good mystery/conspiracy.

If I hear back from the guy I emailed, I'll let you guys know.

Another possible angle, is to talk to the people behind the financing. They are not tech people, and may have information to lend that they are not even aware that they have.

The bottom line here though, is that I think that the people that are keeping this a secret, intend to keep it a secret. And they will.

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#119
In reply to #118

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 5:30 PM

I was hoping that Mose might come back. I'll bet he knows more than he's told us.

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#120
In reply to #119

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 5:44 PM

Nah. He's fishing. If he knew more than we did, he'd be exposing a bombshell and probably be looking for a Pulitzer, not hanging out here.

I think we'll eventually have an answer.................and it will be both political, and boring.

Like Tornado pointed out. To think that politics doesn't come into play, is hopelessly naive.

Anyone that does business in the US, knows that you can't open a lemonade stand without greasing the sweaty palms of some political machine. It's just the way things work.

The bottom line here is, (if we are able to look at things objectively), this company is breaking no laws. They can delay opening as long as they want.

If the republicans get the presidency, and sweep the senate, 2013 will give them enough time to replace the judges that are siding with the Sierra Club. In the meantime, there will be no more court cases.

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#121
In reply to #120

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 6:10 PM

If this scenario pans out, the EPA will also have their wings clipped by 2013.

Now.................if others are willing to look at this objectively, know that I am not making my statements from a republican cheerleading section, and have paid attention to what happens with political power swings in this country....................they will know that this hypotheses is not out of the question.

I'd rather have an answer that I don't like, than no answer at all.

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#117
In reply to #114

Re: What Happened at the Sandy Creek Power Plant?

01/29/2012 5:02 PM

They're a great bunch. If I could pry the daughters off the government dole, I'd be a lot happier, but I suspect it's too late.

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