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Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 7:16 AM

Please shall i get expert's opinion for our query as below

As standard (ASME Sec. II, Part A (SA312 TP312M) says, the titanium content shall not be less than five times the carbon content and not more than 0.70%

In our query, actual percentage of carbon content is 0.012%, so required percentage of titanium shall not be less than 0.012% X 5 = 0.06% with reference to the above, but we have achieved 0.026% of titanium which is less than the regular required composition. whether it is accepted or not and if it will be rejected then what will be the consequences??

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#1

Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 7:33 AM

What's the application: pharmaceuticals? Sewage?

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 8:46 AM

Referred std. is (ASME Sec. II, Part A (SA312 TP321M), by mistake wrote TP312 in my previous forum

Service is HYDROGEN in refinery

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:02 AM

Please describe the acceptance protocol.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:07 AM

ASME Sec. II, Part A (SA312 TP321M), table 1 (page no.492), Addition 2010

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#5
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Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:12 AM

Which party is doing the acceptance?

Please describe, with appropriate discretion protecting the identities of the parties, the business environment within which this acceptance is taking place.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:17 AM

Independent third party doing the acceptance and client is asking query about this

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#7
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Re: Effect of less percentage of titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:19 AM

Then the third party advises the Client of the consequences of non-acceptance. The Client makes the decision based upon the third party's advice.

What is the technical effect of a lower-than-standard titanium percentage in this particular application? The Client will expect the company to know that and advise accordingly.

CR4 Admin - Removed Company Name

OP mistakenly posted company name which should have been kept confidential.

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#8

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:42 AM

Could the result be a typo, like in #2?

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#9

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 9:48 AM

You are in a very weak position here. How did it ever get accepted for use in the first place???? Your incoming inspection department missed this???

You have no one on staff that can understand the effect of the reduced ratio of Ti to C.

You have no way of justifying the use of non-compliant material in this project.

You will need to hire a consultant recognized by your customer as an expert, with proper qualifications to justify the use, or at least speak intelligently for you.

As PW Slack has stated, it's up the the customer's quality and process engineers if they will accept the non-complaint material, by issuing a waiver of non-compliance, or whatever it is called in your country.

You'll probably have to demonstrate what changes you have initiated to see that the acceptance of non-compliant material can't happen again.

Hire a metallurgist, now.

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 3:27 AM

Let me explain it in details, I am a contractor inspector, chemical analysis carried out by independent third party who was hiring by sub-contractor. I cannot blame to incoming inspection department or any individuals because they tested 10% as spec says and that analysis was within the acceptable limit & matching with MTCs of manufacturer,

After fabrication 100% PMI (Positive Material Identification) require by project specification, during 100% testing only we obtain this 0.026% TI against one pipe

We offer this report to get sign by client and client ask 'whether it is accepted or not and if it will be rejected then what will be the consequences'

I am fully satisfied with comments given by Mr PMoon & Mr. Milo and we are going to re-conduct all relevant tests for that particular pipe except hydro test because hydro test will be done after erection at site. In case of reading of re-tests violating again the code requirements, of course we will have to hi-light this violation by issuing a non-conformance report and let engineering of sub contractor clarify it with bring up the corrective action.

Thanks to all

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 8:42 AM

Yes. That is the proper approach. Milo

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 8:49 AM

Thanks alot Mr.Milo to work seriously on this issue

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#24
In reply to #14

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/13/2012 5:56 AM

Good Luck, Ti found within the acceptable limit in re-testing of that particular pipe and accepted by all parties

Thanks

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#25
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Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/13/2012 9:21 AM

That is great news. Thanks for reporting back. Milo

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#10

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 12:34 PM

ASME SA312 is the same material specification as ASTM A312. They just put an "S" in front when they incorporate an ASTM spec. I find no mention of TP321M however there is TP321H.

ASTM A312 says "steel shall conform to the required chemical composition for carbon, manganese, phosphorus, sulfur, silicon, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, titanium, columbium, tantalum, nitrogen, vanadium, copper, cerium, boron, aluminum, and others."

It further says "Tensile properties of the material shall conform to the prescribed tensile strength and yield strength. The steel pipe shall undergo mechanical tests such as transverse or longitudinal tension test and flattening test. Grain size determination and weld decay tests shall be performed. Each pipe shall also be subjected to the nondestructive electric test or the hydrostatic test."

This material specification was created for austenitic stainless steel pipe intended for high-temperature and general corrosive service. Any pipe that does not meet the material specification may not meet the service requirements, and the only way to prove that is does is to perform the tests listed above. However; you will not have SA312 TP321 material. If that is what is specified you are nonconforming any way you look at it. It's use will represent a Code Violation and could result in:

1. Civil penalties if the code is statutory in your country/state.

2. Criminal penalties if someone is injured or killed in an accident involving

this pressure retaining pipe.

3. Failure of your insurance company to accept your claim for damages.

Your purchase order should have required a Certified Material Test Report (CMTR) from the supplier. Recommendation is to return it to your supplier. If your are the supplier recommend a new heat.

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#11

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 12:39 PM

Yep. Get the #10↑ idea?

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#12

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/08/2012 11:13 PM

The role of titanium is to stabilize the steel. It assures fine grain size. It creates a couple of precipitates in the liquid and solid phases. The precipitates are reaction products of titanium and nitrogen and titanium and carbon. The ASME spec says multiple of 5 times carbon minimum; in reality for stoichiometric assurance of full stabilization titanium should be greater than 0.15 plus 4 times the sum of carbon and nitrogen. This is because in practice titanium also reacts with sulfur so the yield is difficult to achieve. In my opinion, ( I am a regular steel guy not a stainless guy) the low titanium could result in inconsistent welds due to poor grain size control and inconsistent precipitates.The titanium is also supposed to scavenge carbon and or nitrogen so that they dont tie up the chromium that makes the stainless steel resist corrosion. The low titanium analysis is failure to meet spec, evidence of poor delivery, and as I have shown is a potential cause of failure mode when welding, possible low mechanical properties, and heightened corrosion. Reject and hold out for compliant material. My apology for the long paragraph,my mobile doesn't format properly. Milo

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#13

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 1:05 AM

Milo and PMoon covered it well. I was composing a response from a former refinery weldor's perspective, guessing that without PWHT, uncommon for 300 series SS, the Ti deficient would be prone to cracking, the very last thing you want for hydrogen service. Milo explained why.

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#15

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 6:09 AM

● Dears, Milo and PMoon good post, but I'd like to comment at statement:

"ASME SA-312 is the same material specification as ASTM A-312. They just put an "S" in front when they incorporate an ASTM spec".

That is not actually correct where there are a differences between ASME SA-312 and ASTM A-312 as clearly indicated that there are some exceptions as listed at ASME, Section II, Part A. When the specifications of the material described by ASME is the same specification as ASTM, here we can say that the material is identical and ASME shall add the logo of ASTM beside the logo of ASME:

..........................................

● (Identical with ASTM Specification A-312/A 312M-01a except for the deletion of 5.2, revision to 6.2 to add " H Grade heat treatment and editorial differences in 7.1 and Table 1 and an editorial correction to the Cr and Ni percent chemical composition for UNS S31002 in Table 1.)

.................................................

● Example: for material ASME SA-320 which is identical with ASTM A-320M, here the logo of ASTM must be included in ASME page in addition to clear writing of the statement (Identical with ASTM Specification A-320/A-320M).

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 8:39 AM

Abel, your contributions ALWAYS add value to the discussion. Thanks for clarifying the agency scope issues. Hope that all is well with you. Milo

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 11:59 AM

You definitely know the Code. I am curious which Year Edition that began. Having been primarily concerned with Sect. XI for the better part of the past 25 years (Inspection not Repair/Replacement), my experience with Sect. II is prior 1985. At that time what I stated in my post; I believe, was correct.

Thank you for the straight forward way in which you clarified my error.

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#21
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Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/10/2012 3:01 AM

ASME XI "Rules for inservice inspection of Nuclear Power Plant Components"????

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/10/2012 6:36 AM

Affirmative. I have been a VT-1, 2, and 3 Inspector since 1986. With the exception of about 12 years that I worked in project management for road and bridge construction. I returned to the nuclear power industry last year.

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#23
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Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/10/2012 7:25 AM

Nice. I read this morning (in a chinesse news paper) that there are Two News Power plants projects in Minessota. Since 1978 no construction of this kind of plants in America. Have a good day. WP

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#19

Re: Effect of Less Percentage of Titanium in ASTM312 TP321

02/09/2012 9:32 AM

Make it to the specifications and standards or don't make it.

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Abdel Halim Galala (1); Adeel Ahmad (6); drbobwoolery (1); lyn (1); Milo (4); PMoon (3); PWSlack (6); ronclarke (1); Whitephone (2)

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