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Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/10/2012 9:58 PM

...everyone aboard, including steerage passengers, (but excepting boiler room crew, the Marconi operator and the captain), had been ordered early-on to go as far astern as possible? This might have lifted the bow, and stalled progressive flooding of the first 4 compartments and the critical 5th compartment. I realize that no quick answers may be possible.

So that answers can be compared, please consider 150 lbs to be the average weight of every child and adult, and a "packing density" of one adult per 2 square feet (wearing life vests). You may need to access published blueprints of the ship, but I don't know how.

Footnote: I just saw Titanic 3D. A worthwhile 3 1/2 hour experience, but bring earplugs and snacks. It shows the value of 3D for ordinary scenes. If there is no IMAX theater near you, see it again in the 2D version, also showing.

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#1

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/10/2012 10:18 PM

Never saw it. Never want to see it. Movies that appeal to teenage girls never seem to appeal to me.

Your question sounds like homework. I don't do other people's homework either. Good luck with it.

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#2

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/10/2012 11:40 PM

Seriously. I rarely do anything that remotely seems like homework, but you need a dope slap an analysis demonstration of the information the web can provide.

The displacement of the Titanic was 46,000 tons. This means that the Titanic displaced 46,000 tons of water, so it weighed 46,000 tons * 2000 lbs/ ton =92,000,000 lbs. With your given 150 lbs/person the Titanic weighed the equivalent of 92,000,000 lbs /(150 lbs/person)≈ 613,000 persons. There were 3,360 passengers and crew on this vessel. All of the people combined weighed less than 1% of the empty ship. Moving people and deck chairs on this crippled ship would make no difference.

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#72
In reply to #2

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/12/2012 10:02 PM

Thanks for answering. It was the most responsive answer, and also a well-deserved hint to do prior research on the web. I posted impetuously.

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#73
In reply to #2

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/12/2012 10:39 PM

Redfred,

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare the weight of the passengers to the weight of water taken on, then there is also the moment to consider about the centre of buoyancy at the time.

It is probably still insufficient to affect the outcome ..... thus my muse about flooding one or two compartments at the stern to try to hold the bows high enough to stop the water flooding over the top of the flooded foward compartment bulkheads. .... but that probably wouldn't have worked either.

The suggestion of getting a Tarpaulin over the damage and pulled tight to reduce the inflow to a point where the pumps could handle it was interesting ..... not much different to what Captain Cook did to save the Endeavour near the Endeavour River in far north Queensland in 1770 - that may have worked, and they had the time to try it ..... if not the presence of mind to do so...........

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/12/2012 11:19 PM

You've taken leave of your senses!

It's dark.

There's no power.

The rip in the hull is 200 feet long. It's freezing above, and below the water. Men cannot work below the surface and live.

The in-rushing water would have strained them through the hull with hydraulic pressure, even if they could had gotten close.

The ship was doomed, period.

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#80
In reply to #74

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 5:18 AM

People pleas, pleas, please read this and think about it carefully.

There was no 90 m (300 foot) long gash in the side of the ship, period, full stop, nada, end of statement.

What there was were a mass of small cracks and seams that opened up slightly due to the impact. The total cross sectional area of all the holes added up to no more than 0.6 m2 (6 square feet) or less than the size of the average door.

The whole gash thing it a complete myth and was fabricated by the newspapers of the time. If there had been a 90 m long hole in the side of the ship she would have sunk in about 15 to 20 minutes at most not the 2 hours plus she did. That means that while 5 compartments were flooding the flooding was relatively slow and took time before it reached the top of the bulkheads and overflowed into the next watertight compartment.

So forget about the 90 m long hole, it wasn't there the flooding was most likely caused by seams opening up and rivets being ripped out causing numerous small holes that all together added up to about 0.6 m2.

Mindy you, a hell of a lot of water can flow through a 0.6 m2 hole so there was a lot of water coming in it just wasn't coming in through a single 90 m long hole.

As for the use of tarpaulins to cover the holes, this may have worked and you don't need to place people in the water to do it. What you do is lower a boat with the tarpaulin in it then weight down one side of the tarpaulin while tying the other side with ropes to the ship's deck. You then lower the weighted end into the water between the boat and the ship's hull. Once the tarpaulin gets down to the depth of the breach the flow of water will cause the tarpaulin to be pulled against the hull and sealing the hole/s.

However, for this to happen there must be a pressure differential between the inside of the ship and the water outside, once the water in the flooded compartment reaches the same level as the water outside there is no pressure differential and this technique will probably not work.

Of the 5 compartments that were flooding compartment 2 was the worst damaged and the level inside reached the level of the sea outside after about 15 minutes so it wouldn't have worked on this compartment as the pressure differential and flow rate of the water into the compartment would not have been insufficient to keep the tarpaulin against the hull.

As for the remaining compartments, there are a couple of really big IFs

  • First off is whether they could get the tarpaulins, ropes, weights, boat in position, et cetera in time for the flow and pressure differential to be great enough to hold the tarpaulins in place is questionable.
  • Secondly is whether this technique would work on possibly hundreds of small holes and opened seams rather than the mythical 90 m long hole is also questionable.

Nevertheless, when you're in a desperate situation like this then you try absolutely everything you can think of that would help so if it was me in charge I certainly would have at least given it a go.

Something else worth noting is that there was enough space on the lifeboats for 1,178 people which the crew knew was totally inadequate yet they still lowered lifeboats that were not full, costing lives that could have otherwise been saved. This would tend to indicate that the officers in charge were not thinking clearly and rationally.

Something else that's worth noting is that the Titanic's davits were designed to each launch 4 lifeboats but only one lifeboat was installed with each davit. Had all the lifeboats the engineers had allowed for been installed there would have been enough for 4,000 people which would have been more than enough to save everybody.

So, if you really want to point the finger point it at management that as usual didn't listen to what the engineers stated was necessary in their designs.

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#85
In reply to #80

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 8:07 AM

I understand that the entire gash may not have been open. There's the small detail of finding it from the outside, in the dark, in unsurvivable working conditions, and then not being killed by the inrushing water.

The ship was doomed.

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 8:32 AM

The beauty of the tarpaulin concept is that you don't need to find the exact position of the hole, just drop it down so that it covers the region the hole is in and the water pressure does the rest. It's a technique that has been in use from the tall ships days through WWII. I also seem to remember seeing the technique use for an emergency repair on a warship in a documentary I saw fairly recently so I think the technique is still in use today. Also it wasn't dark as the ships lighting was still operational right up until just before it broke apart.

As for getting sucked in by the rushing water you're not allowing for the fact that it wasn't one big hole just lots of little ones so I doubt very much if a boat would be sucked into any hole by the flow of water below the water line. In fact as I eluded to in my post the flow through the many small individual holes may have been so small that it wouldn't have been enough to suck the tarpaulin in and seal the hole.

Keep in mind if it were a continuous tear along the length suggested it would only be about a quarter of an inch wide which is no more than a crack. That's why they believe the flooding was caused by seams in the hull plating opening up and rivet heads being sheared off rather than the 25 mm thick steel being torn apart. Actually it would be nigh on impossible to form a tear that long and narrow in steel plate that was four times as thick as the width of the tear.

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#136
In reply to #80

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/16/2012 11:06 AM

I think you need to see the recent nation geoghaphic special that goes over exactly what happens.

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#81
In reply to #74

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 5:29 AM

I knew I forgot something

"It's dark. There's no power."

The stokers gallantly remained at their posts until almost the last minute, primarily to keep enough steam pressure up so that the generators would continue to run and supply the ship with power. The power didn't fail till very shortly before the ship broke apart so it wasn't dark and there was power.

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#87
In reply to #73

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 10:05 AM

To change the orientation of the ship one must move the mass of the ship and all contained in it. The water pouring into the doomed sinking ship will add to the mass to be moved that I calculated above. So moving people, deck chairs and any other movable mass will not do anything to change the final fate or even appreciably delay sinking. The only thing that could work is to limit the amount of water (mass) entering the ship. Truly water tight doors and tarps, curtains, bed sheets, or dinner table cloths reducing the rate of water entering the ship by partially plugging the holes so pumps might be able to remove water fast enough may have made a difference. (Sigh) I thought that this would be obvious.

As for the tarp plugging speculation, nobody here knows how deep below the frigid water line was the hull breach. It is possible but highly unlikely that this started close to the water line that external plugging might have been originally possible but further sinking made the outside unreachable. I propose that it is more likely that the breach was well below the water line because as we should all know, most of an iceberg is underwater.

There is one subtle aspect of this disaster that asking the passengers to move to any part of the ship may have been helpful to the captain. It would show how many of the passengers and crew were willing to initially follow his lead. But then there's Aesop's fable of the boy who cried wolf.

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#3

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 2:14 AM

if you saw the gash on the side, i think it wouldn't have changed much

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#4

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 3:32 AM

Could Titanics sinking have been delayed IF...

The Bean counters allowed the Engineers to build it properly and not skimp on the steel for the bulkheads in the "water tight" compartments.....

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#5

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 4:24 AM

...and the quality of the steel used for the hull plates, and the quality of the rivets, and the training of the captain, and the quality of forward-vision systems...

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#6

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 4:31 AM

I'm all Titanic'd out... can't we stop now?
If I see another micro second of it on the TV I swear I'll put an arrow through the screen
Del

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#7

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 7:27 AM

Yeah if the captain would have had the quick response to turn the ship and run it a ground on top of the iceberg. That's is if the iceberg was as big as the one they showed in the movie. But I wasn't there. So can say. Then hind sight has aways been 20/20. Any survivors here that can give a first hand account?

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#8

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/11/2012 8:00 AM

So, was Titanic's sinking faked, like the moon landings?

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#92
In reply to #8

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 4:31 PM

Nope. Titantic done actually wernt to the Moon and them astronots done drownded jes loike in da movie. I seen it! Cain't wait ta see wot they done this time in 3 dee. Reckon that hole done got bigger meanwiles an betcha thangs all got rusted an everthang too, ya reckon? Aint none o that wuz faked, cep that Coke bottle. [humming 'She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy']

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#98
In reply to #92

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 9:22 PM

The Titanic never sank in the first place. It was a hoax. The wreck at the bottom of the Atlantic was constructed by the movie producers, and only to perpetuate the myth, which was originally invented by the New York Times, in order to increase circulation during a long and tenacious slump in sales.

The Lusitania however, did sink, but not at the south-west coast of Ireland, and not by a German torpedo. It was hauled to rest there after the fact, and the place was carfully chosen in order to gather as many reporters and photographers with relative ease, after there were no convincing evidence left to munch on, from the alleged disaster of the Titanic.

The Lusitania was deliberately sunk by the passengers as a necessary sacrifice, in order to drag the Yanks to the battlefield in Europe - After all, Americans hate war - as we all know.

In both incidents, Cunard Line, the owners, had nothing to do with any of all that, or as they were reported to have said so convincingly: "I know nothing about nothing - I'm not even from here but from there, so there" - end of quote.

Those were hard times back then, not like today, with all that nine-eleven, the Apollo mission, the Columbia shuttle, or the Japanese Tsunami. Back then you had to convince the public that the disaster actually happened, but today with all that new-age virtual media, it's only a few Photoshop brush-strokes away.

I should know - I was there on both incidents, especially on the non-sinking of the Titanic - and I'm not Leonardo DiCaprio - as weird as it may sound.

Nor am I kate Winslet - for what it's worth

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 10:28 PM

This thread is really going off the rails. I think we need a new thread that deals specifically with conspiracy theories. It would be a good one.

How they start. Why people believe them. Why they never seem to go away, despite piles of evidence to the contrary, why people that are either engineers or pretend engineers continue to buy into them.............................

Sh^t, the list is endless.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 10:44 PM

Oh NO!

That's even worse. Now we'll have all sorts of dumb theories about how theories become pseudo-facts and then we'll have to talk about how to analyze those into a probable theory on the original motivation of the conspiracy, such as 9-11 or the Titanic or the collapse of the dollar next week.

Now you've got me confused.

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#101
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Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/13/2012 11:40 PM

I agree. The formation and proliferation of conspiracy theories is a much more interesting subject to discuss, than any conspiracy theory by itself, and even much, much more interesting than the sinking of the Titanic, because unlike the sinking of the Titanic, there still is time ahead to do something about conspiracy theories, before we all turn into new-age mushy zombies, with no distinction whatsoever between the real and the fabricated, between the imagined and the measurable.

What's next?

- Could Nine-Eleven be avoided with proper RFID tagging search in airports ?

- Could time-travel be specific enough to set arrival-resolution measured in nano-seconds ?

I will now put my pyramid-shaped tin foil hat, and listen to some Crystal-Energy Vibes

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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Could Titanic's sinking have been delayed IF...

04/14/2012 2:08 AM

I'm sorry. I think I shouldn't be that sarcastic. Such topics can invoke the nasty troll in me, and that troll is not forum material. I should have known better.

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#9

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:12 AM

Just under four hours after the disaster the RMS Carpathia arrived in the area and began rescuing survivors. At 8:30 she picked up the last lifeboat with survivors and left the area bound for New York.

It wouldn't have mattered. It may have prolonged the sinking by a little, but given the fact that hypothermia set in within minutes for those in the water, it's moot. The launching of the lifeboats was also botched.

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#10

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:23 AM

An interesting article and graphic in the NYTimes reporting how: "two new studies argue that rare states of nature played major roles in the catastrophe."

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:28 AM

That's right. Blame the moon.

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#12
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:33 AM

The one on which no man has ever set foot?

One could just blame the rivets.

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#103
In reply to #12

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/14/2012 6:34 AM

GAwd! :)

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#104
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/14/2012 9:19 AM

It was only the rivets in the very forward part of the bow that were made from wrought iron, the rest were steel rivets. The reason for this is that wrought iron rivets are easier to work than steel rivets and because of the cramped space in the bow section they couldn't work the steel rivets properly to form a seal so they used the softer wrought iron rivets instead.

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#13
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:35 AM

question of how a ship that was so costly and so well built - a ship declared to be unsinkable - could have ended so terribly.

Maybe that explains it.....................Murphy's Law hadn't been discovered yet.

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#15
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:46 AM

Only the press of the time ever said the ship was unsinkable. It's made of steel, it's going to sink. Duh!

The best solution to save more of the passengers and crew I ever heard was to come alongside the iceberg itself and use it as a life raft. It would have been cold, but warmer than in the sea!

I listened to an interview the other day with a descendant of one of the bridge crew. She said that family lore had the helmsman turn the wrong way, as there was a change in regulations occurring that meant port and starboard was reversed, but he had been assigned from a post in the Pacific where the change had not yet taken place.

I had never heard of such a thing. Any truth in it?

PS, I'm quite keen on port, anyone tried starboard?

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#16
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:58 AM

I had never heard of that.........................interesting.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/titanic.htm

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 10:31 AM

Originally the helm was a tiller connected directly to the rudder so when you said helm hard to starboard it meant move the tiller to the starboard and hence cause the ship/boat to turn to the right.

However, with wheels the direction you turned the wheel is the direction that the boat will turn, but for quite some time they still used the old interpretation that when you said helm hard to starboard it meant to turn the ship to the port.

In this case the ship was meant to turn to the port or left which is what it did and hence impacted the iceberg on its starboard or right side.

Just a point worth noting, for the ship to take that long to sink the total area of the hole that sank it would have only been about 0.56 m2 (6 square feet) so there was no huge rip down its side just lots of little cracks and oped seams that altogether added up to less than the size of the average doorway. The problem was that these holes were spread over 6 compartments and it couldn't say afloat with that many compartments holed.

Another point worth pondering is that had they not tried to avoid the iceberg at all and hit it head on it would probably only have crushed the first two compartments and caused flooding in the third which means it wouldn't have sunk.

Finally when they heard the iceberg warning they ordered all engines hard astern, but when you reverse the engines you dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the rudder. Had they not ordered the engines reversed they may have had just that little bit more control and may have missed the iceberg instead of glancing off its side.

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 12:47 PM

A lot of your course of action would depend on the distance ahead that you see the iceberg. In a heavy fog in the North Atlantic the visibility might well have been very limited. I remember reading somewhere that the QE2 needed something like 2 miles to come to a complete stop from full ahead. I don't remember if that was based on going to Full Astern with all engines or just gliding to a stop after shutting down the engines.The momentum based on her gross weight of around 70,000 tons (or maybe tonnes) carries it pretty far.

Assuming that the turning radius was shorter than the distance away Hard to Port should have been followed by Port Engines Stop and then Port engines Full Reverse with a double jingle for Emergency Full Reverse to swing it faster to Port.

If it was Dead Ahead coming up out of the mist All engines in reverse and maintain course would probably have stove in the bow up to the 2nd or 3rd watertight compartment but the ship could have stayed afloat. The trouble is for a Captain to head straight into an iceberg is generally not in the training manual as an option.

The initial flaw was probably in not reducing speed in a thick fog so you could stop in time. Hard to beat a speed record when if you slow down though.

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#31
In reply to #20

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 3:00 AM

Spinico stated in post #20

  • "If it was Dead Ahead coming up out of the mist"

Unfortunately the night was dead calm and perfectly clear with absolutely no fog. In fact survivors from the Titanic and crew members on other ships in the area noted that it was an extremely clear night with some stating that they had never seen such a clear night nor so many stars. So that pretty much kills the fog theory, but there are other reasons that they wouldn't have seen the ice berg till they were just about to hit it.

Somebody eluded to seeing a program on unusual optical effects being caused by layers of air at different temperatures.

I saw that program last night as it happens to be and I agree with everything he said and have been saying the same thing myself for years.

I used to live in Adelaide or to the south of Adelaide on the coast looking west. Now from where we lived to the other side of Saint Vincent Gulf is a minimum of 65 km which would mean that there is no way we should be able to see the other side. Yet under certain weather conditions and cold you could clearly see the wheat silos on the other side of the gulf and that was just with the naked eye.

Given that the titanic had just passed from water that was relatively warm into the water of the Labrador Current where the water temperature was close to if not below 0°C there would have been all sorts of optical distortions and effects happening. One of them would be to raise the horizon further up than it's normal level with your eye position. This would have made seeing the iceberg very difficult as it was a moonless, dead calm, perfectly clear night with no fog so they only way they could see it was to notice a lack of stars in a patch above the horizon where the iceberg was. But the horizon would have been higher due to the effect of the cold air over the water of the Labrador Current so they probably wouldn't have been able to see it till the lights from the ship started to illuminate it.

Spinco mentioned that it takes a couple of miles to stop large ships. It takes miles to stop the average Boeing 747 and they only weight about 300 tonnes when landing not 40,000. Admittedly a Boeing 747 is going much faster but even with reverse thrust and wheel brakes (something ships don't have) it still takes them at least a mile and a half to stop. So, a couple of miles to stop 40,000 tonnes of titanic with reverse going flat out is not unrealistic.

One thing that does make me wonder though and this was raised in another program, why instead of stopping where they were, didn't they just head to the ship that they could see on the horizon? It was only 6 to 8 nautical miles away which at full speed the Titanic could have covered in 20 minutes giving them almost 2 hours to get everybody off. If they had just pointer Titanic in that direction just stopping her would have gotten them a quarter to a third of the way there. Even if they headed there in reverse since forward would have probably hastened the sinking they could have gotten there with over an hour to spare. They wouldn't have been able to launch life boats while still moving but they could have had them loaded up and ready to go as soon as they reached the other ship.

What do you think, would it have been possible for Titanic to reach the SS Californian, which it's believed was the ship they saw, in time or not?

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#121
In reply to #31

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/16/2012 4:29 AM

The optical illusion is known as Fata Morgana and is well documented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_%28mirage%29

During its sea trials the Titanic underwent a "crash stop" where the engines went from "full ahead" to "full stern" and stopped in just under a half mile and 3 min 15 sec:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic

Forget about moving people around to balance the boat, it took on 13,700 tons of water within 45 minutes of the initial impact, 15 times faster than it could be pumped out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_RMS_Titanic

Lots of good stuff about Titanic in Wikipedia which at least has some source citations.

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#153
In reply to #31

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/16/2012 1:19 PM

I remember sailing into Adelaide and then leaving for a run up to Port Pirie. I remember going ashore in Port Pirie and walking on a dirt Main Street with a train track down the middle, with saloon like swinging doors on the Pub or should I say Hotel entrance. I felt a little like I was transported back to the American Wild West. It was 1960 and I was a young man of 18. It was very hot and dusty. Best beer in the world down under. It's a shame we can't import the real stuff. We did stock up on Forsters for the long trip back, 30 days back to the Canal Zone and unfortunately no stop at Tahiti on the way back. Still enjoy a good bottle of Forsters but it still doesn't cut it as a good cold schooner in the Pub.

Aluminum ingots practically piled as far as the eye could see. Largest smelter under one roof as it was described to me.

The main point that I wanted to make though is if the Titanic was leaving the Gulf Stream, water about 70-75 degrees F and entering the Labrador Current, temp about 35-40 F, one would wonder about optical peculiarities. Could your seeing across the Gulf of St. Vincent be a prism effect from say a cool evening air/breeze over the warm water causing condensation with water droplets in the air thus acting as magnifying effect or telescopic effect the way two prisms work in a periscope?

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#154
In reply to #153

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/16/2012 1:27 PM

We had the dusty streets and swinging saloon doors in the American Wild West (and still do in places, like Detroit) but, back then you wouldn't have gotten any beer. It was whiskey or nothing, and it wasn't until Lucas Electric Ltd. invented refrigerators that they stocked any warm beer...

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#157
In reply to #154

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/16/2012 3:35 PM

I think that you might want to follow this thread:

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/101/history_american_beer

Beer was here long before refrigeration. Basically came over with the Pilgrims.

And in fact if you ask our English gentry involved in this discussion, they used to consume a lot of warm beer and may still do so. I asked for a cold brew once in Southampton and before I could stop the barkeep he plunked a handful of ice into the glass. I drank it warm thereafter during my stay.

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#164
In reply to #153

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/17/2012 4:23 AM

You don't need water droplets forming to get the effect, in fact they would form fog making it impossible to see more than a few metres.

However the cold water cools the air directly above it making it denser and light travels slower in denser air. This is called a temperature inversion as normally the air cools as you get higher but in this case it warms as you get higher.

The end result is that the light rays are bent downwards towards the earth rather than upwards as seen in a mirage.

Since the light is bent downwards it can actually make the horizon appear to be much further away than it otherwise would and hence allow you to see the silos over 66 km away when normally the furthest you can see is about 10 km.

In fact it the temperature inversion is just right and the resultant curvature in the light matches the curve in the earth then the visible horizon can be as far away as the temperature inversion exist which with the Labrador current could be hundreds of kilometres. The only problem with this is that it would make it impossible to discern where the sky ended and the sea started with the two being melded together. So some stars would appear below the horizon while a ship at least up to 65 km away would appear above the horizon. The twinkling of the stars would then make it pretty much impossible to discern any sort of Morse lamp as it would be intermingled with twinkling stars, or in other words what happened to the crew on the California.

It also means that the California may have been the 30 nautical miles away they stated they were hence making them believe what they saw wasn't the Titanic because under normal conditions it would be too far away to see.

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#165
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/17/2012 4:46 AM

An optical 'waveguide' of sorts. I saw this effect over the dry lake bed at Edwards AFB (where the first shuttles landed). Very strange effect: you could see the rocket lab on the far side of the lake, but above and inverted as if the sky were a mirror! Here, in winter usually, we have a similar effect in terms of a temp. inversion forming an acoustic waveguide of sorts. On one winter night several years ago it sounded like a passing train was just outside the house in spite of the tracks being more than 7 km away! Very still and cold layer of air near the ground capped by warmer air above.

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#25
In reply to #15

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 11:16 PM

Try Starboard Light (Creme de Menthe) it is excellent under the 'right' conditions - perhaps when there is no port 'left'.

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#30
In reply to #25

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 2:35 AM

I never heard of the brand, but excellent as a topping on ice cream!

(Tenuous link to ice berg there)

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#107
In reply to #25

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/15/2012 11:38 PM

Starboard Light regretfully disagrees with me... in fact it makes me turn green.

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#95
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 6:15 PM

"... a ship declared to be unsinkable - could have ended so terribly."

Nature has a way of keeping us humble, non?

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#14

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 8:36 AM

Never seen it. Why? Well, I know how it ends.

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#40
In reply to #14

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:35 AM

Me, too. The ship sinks.

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#41
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:58 AM

Yep!

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#17

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 10:29 AM

You could have stolen all of the life vests from the passengers and stuffed them down into the partially flooded bow compartments to add buoyancy and thus saved time, but not much.

First problem was getting the passengers to even give them up, even at the point of a popgun. FAIL!

Second problem would be that you have to be very fast in your collection efforts. AGAIN, FAIL!

Third problem would have been due to the buoyancy of each and every life vest, and that you'd be hard-pressed to get them down in the hold if it's full of water or partially filled; they'll pop right back up and out of the deck hatch(es). YET AGAIN, FAIL!

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#137
In reply to #17

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/16/2012 11:19 AM

That was brought up by the experts on the recent National Geographic program they had a team of engineers, accounts from eye witnesses, videos and photos of the wreckage and the wreckage field. It was a pretty interesting program. The director of the Titanic was on it even shooting down parts of his movie. At the end they did a full computer animation from the gash al the way to the end with the wreckage field.

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#19

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 11:36 AM

I think a factor was the "British" additude at the time, "this ship is sink proof" possibly delaying appropiate action by the Captain.

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#21
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 12:52 PM

Yeah just like the 'Italian' attitude that sank the last passenger liner?
Del

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#22
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 1:11 PM

Yes, but, the Italian Captain had something other than the ship's safety in mind at the time he ran it aground.

There was no little tart in the wheelhouse of the Titanic at the time it hit the iceberg.

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#23
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 1:26 PM

So the Brit was more intent on maintaining a stiff upper lip and the Italian was more intent on maintaining a stiff lower member?

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#42
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:23 AM
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#24
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 1:38 PM

Didn't look 'little' to me

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#26
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/11/2012 11:57 PM

Captain SMITH was not ITALIAN what ship are you referring to??? That Italian cattle boat in the Med.

The gash was just too long and nobody ever said it was unsinkable if that was so then both its sister ships would have been too

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#27
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 12:15 AM

Del was referring to the Costa Concordia.

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#33
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 3:30 AM

Violet Jessop, now there's somebody you never want to be on a ship with. She was on the Olympic when it was damaged in a collision with a HMS Hawk. Then she was on the Titanic when it sank and survived. She then became a nurse and was serving on the Britannic when it hit a mine and sank.

She survived all three incidents, but was on all three sister ships when they either sank or were involved in a major accident. I'm not a suspicious person, but bloody nora she just has to be the worst jinx of all time.

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#34
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 3:59 AM

Thats just the sort of thing that makes people believe in little green men etc.

I'd call it bad random.

Real bad!

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#50
In reply to #34

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 10:54 AM

It was a metaphysical conspiracy. She kept men from walking on the Moon too, and Neil Armstrong denies any involvement whatsoever with the Over-Unity 9/11 hoax, just so you know.

Masu, how did she die?

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#51
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 11:16 AM
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#52
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 11:40 AM

Thanks. Wikipedia better remove the article. Violet was mentioned on WikiLeaks too...

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#57
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 7:44 PM

Yeah, attitude, but more just plain stupidity.

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#32
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 3:05 AM

Someone mentioned the QE2, well just after the Concordia went down, there was an interview with a former Captain of the QE2 on the wireless (5 Live Drive for you Brits) He was asked what are the rules for the Captain when such an event occurs, is it true that the Captain should always go down with the ship and all that. His reply was quite interesting, he said the Captains responsibility is to ensure the safety of the passengers and crew, and that means effectively you stay at your post until there is no possible chance of saving anyone else. Last man on aboard.

What he then said was more telling; he said that after such a disaster, getting off the ship would be unbearable. He felt personally that the consequences of surviving would be far worse than death. He went on to say that had Smith survived the Titanic sinking, when you consider how his name was blackened after his death, how bad would it have been for him? There are records of surviving crew members being hounded to suicide by their neighbours, just because they survived. No wonder Smith froze after the collision.

Francesco Schettino (Concordia) was very clearly unaffected by the weight of this responsibility, and at the very least has displayed a lack of concern for his passengers and crew that in itself should condemn him.

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#53
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 2:14 PM

I just heard on Public Radio that the Captain of the Titanic threatened to shoot any man that would not give up his seat to a woman or child.

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#54
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 4:23 PM

More bogus wiki. The true quote : "the Captain of the Titanic threatened to shoot any man that would not put down the seat in consideration of a woman or child".

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#55
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 6:04 PM

"More bogus wiki. The true quote : "the Captain of the Titanic threatened to shoot any man that would not put down the seat in consideration of a woman or child"."

Sounds like a British colloquialism, "put down the seat in consideration".

What does that mean?

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#56
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 7:31 PM

"Put down" as in "Put it out of its bloody misery" or something like that. You never know with these British colloquialisms, you know, like

Q: What do you get when you cross the Titanic and the Atlantic?

A: Halfway.

or

(1) Name your iPod 'Titanic'

(2) Plug it into the computer

(3) "Titanic is syncing"

(4) Press cancel

(5) Feel like a hero

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#59
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 7:50 PM

You understand it suspicioucly well !

You are all spared - Mrs K wants to have an actual face-to-face convo on this ! Real people ? Real world ? ******* ****

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#58
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 7:45 PM

OK, I'll go for it, the topic of 'Titanic' has been done to death.

Those of a sensitive predisposition may desire to log-off or skip.

A topic that oft comes up is 'bog etiquette'. Women admonish men for leaving the toilet seat 'up', though in point of fact the issue is the lid. The subject is lengthy (aerosol effect etc), and I think has come up (as with the seat) on CR4 before.

Sorry - my OT humour doesn't always carry. I'm a little frustrated at all the repetition* of Titanic 'facts'. There are some excellenet sources of information. For a more recent update on known facts, I politely refer you to the posts by masu. My post was OT culture/wordplay that may have not been clear, and was inapt - I apologize (CR4 is global, and I oft forget).

Going back to the topic, as masu informed there are many popular myths. This weekend will be interesting, though I doubt there is a Titanic documentary I haven't seen. Google and such is easy, but it raises an interesting point ; Almost all sources blabber about foggy conditions. After extensive checking I favour the 'clear view' version. The sea was calm, and the lookouts could not distinguish the starlight sky from it's reflection.

I'd ramble on, but this is all on the interweb.

Before those who know me taunt, 'BINOCULARS' ! For those who don't, it's another point of controversy. Google will reveal all.

Nice chat, and a few interesting points have come up. Thanks all, I shall avoid telly on the 15th.

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#61
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:11 PM

Captain of the Titanic spots Essex Girl with binoculars and pulls her from the tangled mess of deck chairs on the fo'c'sl:

"Where ya bleedin' from?!"

"I'm from bleedin' Romford mate! Wot's it to ya?!"

.

.

.

.

.

Oh stop looking at me that way. You know damn well my Inner Troll made me do it.

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#62
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:32 PM

You will pay !

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#63
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:37 PM

Heehee! Do I have any choice in the manner of execution?

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#66
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:55 PM

It will be 'gentlemanly'.....Potsworh minor will attestify to this, as will Scrutter's family, who's (coal-scutteling father's) head was retrieved from an undisclosed crapper in the lower sixth. Yuval has the pics, but trust me - they were cleaned up for public display. " holes ? A rodent would do worse than that .

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#76
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 3:53 AM

"The worter in majorker dont taste like wat it orta!"

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#77
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 4:10 AM

Rossiter is almost on-topic here

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#78
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 4:53 AM

A man enters the bank with a pistol, and rushes to the teller demanding all the money be put in a bag.

The teller looks at him and almost gags laughing "Are you kidding me? - this is a water-pistol !"

"Yes it is" - says the man - "But it's filled with water from the Thames"

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#67
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:56 PM
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#68
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:02 PM

WHAT?! NO DREDS?!

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#71
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:28 PM

but very, very long

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#75
In reply to #61

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 3:08 AM
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#82
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 5:33 AM

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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#84
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 7:52 AM

That's even more groaning than the noise the Titanic made !

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#96
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 6:19 PM

My work here is done.

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#97
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If It Were Made Of Shiny Cast Iron

04/13/2012 6:22 PM

.

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#28

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 12:18 AM

I have often wondered:

If they had flooded one or two compartments in the stern, could the ship have been saved......

I don't have enough information to evaluate the idea, nor the inclination or time to search for it.

Neither have I heard the idea suggested elsewhere ......

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#29
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 12:24 AM

Not likely. Not possible.

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#35

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 6:05 AM

I'm sure you folks all noticed this...

http://thedailywh.at/2012/04/03/titanic-fix-of-the-day/

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#36
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 6:22 AM

Now thats just ANAL!

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#37

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 7:38 AM

The biggest mistake the captain made was to order an all stop, moving the weight may have helped and would been worth while, on top of that I would of found the nearest land mass or boat and ordered full steam ahead towards that object. This ship took some time to sink and if they had been traveling during that time they just might had been close enough to save even more lives. They also had enough wood on board this vessel that they could of built some really nice rafts fairly quickly. Seems to me they were in such shock of the event happening that they lost their basic survival skills built in to most humans.

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#38

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:12 AM

Seems unlikely based on a massive ship getting heavier by the minute. About as likely as the Pirates of the Caribbean ship-flip from Hell.

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#39

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 8:30 AM

Wolf this sounded like a good idea, but there's a couple issues; 1) It's difficult to have cooperation under this type of duress. 2) The rip was actually along midway of the Starboard side, so in this case probably not. But I think had they been properly prepared most passengers would have been saved, as it took several hours for this vessel to descend. This is also an example of what not to do by ignoring your engineers and their warnings by removing and/or modifying the bulkheads in order to make way for a large dance hall or something along those lines . They actually believed the ship was indestructable, vital mistake number 1. If I have the details or anything convoluted please feel free to correct me. Best Regards.

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#43
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:30 AM
  • "The rip was actually along midway of the Starboard side"

That's not correct as it was the first 5 of a total of 16 watertight compartments that were breached, so the damage went less than a third of the way down the side of the ship. The ship was designed to survive with 4 compartments flooded which was one less that were flooded by the initial collision.

The problem was that when the ship started to sink by the bow the water flowed over the top of the watertight bulkheads flooding subsequent compartments one after the other.

There was also a failure of one of the bulkheads I think between compartments 5 and 6. This failure which hastened the sinking may have been caused by damage to the bulkhead. As they sailed on their maiden voyage there was a smouldering fire in a coal bunker adjacent to the bulkhead that failed. The fire was only extinguished after several days by emptying the bunker and feeding the burning coal into the boilers. The heat from this smouldering fire could well have weakened the bulkhead and caused the failure but we will never know.

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#44
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:41 AM

Am I correct in thinking that the water tight compartments were not actually watertight? That the bulkheads were open at the top?

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#45
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:50 AM

Absolutely, positively, 100% correct.

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#47
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:54 AM

Another nail in the "unsinkable" coffin!

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#90
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 4:10 PM

Masu I'm beginning to wonder if YOU sank the Titanic. :-)

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#91
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Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/13/2012 4:29 PM

Yes, let's blame him!!!

He's certainly made me look like a fool here.

Not a difficult task, I must add.

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#46

Re: Could Titanic's Sinking Have Been Delayed If

04/12/2012 9:53 AM

I always thought if they took tarps from the cargo hold, weighed down one end and lowered them over the side vertically, they could seal the holes enough to buy some time. I remember a story about a ship in WW1 being saved by mattresses this way. Of course, unless one of use builds a time machine, none of these ideas are any good now. And even if you did build a time machine, you would have to be on that ship and convince them that you know what is going to happen and your idea will fix it.

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