Login | Register
The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Previous in Forum: Why Increase In NH3 Suction Pressure On Off Load   Next in Forum: Oxidation Of Heat Treated Parts In Furnace
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







11 comments
Member

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7

Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 7:21 AM

Dear All

I need a reference that whether a 4 MW ( Any engine) has been installed any where in the world in a amultisotrey building on higher floors. Lets say on 6 th floor .

Moreover, I believe the vibration transmittions of the engines in this situation will be a function of the material of the building and the architectural design .. ??

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing. Kettle's on.
Posts: 19553
Good Answers: 469
#1

Re: Gas engine installation of 4MW on 6 th floor

05/09/2012 7:30 AM

Is will have a considerable weight. How is it intended to get it in and out of the building that far up? Why can't it go on the ground floor?

__________________
There was a time, not long ago, when people were smarter than their phones... (tips hat to CR4 user Harley.)
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3722
Good Answers: 125
#2

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 9:51 AM

Definitely a problem of transmittance of engine vibrations into the supporting structure. This a perfect opportunity to use "Vibration Isolators" to minimize the effects of vibrations. The building structure either must be designed from the very beginning to withstand the machinery vibrations if it is a proposed building, or a structural vibration analysis of the structure is required if it is an existing building to ensure that the installation of the engine provides a safe structure. In many cases, an existing structure will have to be reinforced significantly. If this is the case, the economics of reinforcing an existing building structure may prove to be prohibited.

I recommend the following structural engineering textbooks dealing with machinery and structural vibrations:

1. "Vibrations of Mechanical and Structural Systems", by G.M. Smith, J.C. Wolford, and M.L James.

2. "Mechanical and Structural Vibrations", by Demeter G. Fertis.

Both are available as E-Books downloads on the Internet.....sometimes for free. Do a Google Search for them.

DISCLAIMER NOTE: To sufficiently utilize either book to it's fullest, you may need a Doctorate of Engineering degree. If you do not possess that sort of degree, then leave it to a pro that knows what he/she is doing regarding machinery vibration design and analysis of structures, otherwise you may end up with a collapsed building, property damage, and dead occupants and bystanders near the building!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3722
Good Answers: 125
#3

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 10:00 AM

I forgot to mention that PWStack has made some very valid comments and concerns.

Usually, such a large and significantly heavy piece of equipment is found either in the building basement or on the ground floor.

Sure, there are such pieces of equipment in buildings aboveground. You can find them all around the world in cities big and small.....New York City or London comes to mind immediately because of the restrictive nature of available land there, or the basements in highrises are already full with necessary equipment like electrical, plumbing and firepumps etc etc. to accommodate new equipment.

But why would you want to put the type of engine in the upper floors in the first place. Do you have the capability to even safely lift and place such a large piece of equipment? Do you have a large can opener to open-up the side or rooftop of the building is it is an existing one?

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7
#4

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 10:30 AM

Thanks all for the value addition. THe client has made a high rise building and the basement is fully occupied with the Mall at the basement. THe building is still under construction and using the grid for necessary utility consumption. Now the idea is to have a cogen plant. The space is not enough for 1x4 MW small engines. We were looking for some reference but I guess it needs more internet searching :)

Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5473
Good Answers: 226
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 3:46 PM

Haven't heard of an engine or generator this big, but you may (I say may) be able to get away with a number of smaller engines to help distribute the weight and make installation and maintenance viable. This is quite a large redesign as the construction will likely have to be altered to accommodate the cogen plant and a rapid design review conducted to ensure the cogen plant doesn't compromise the structural integrity of the building.

Alternatively consider placing the cogen plant off site nearby as another possible option.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 34° 34' 21.60" N, 92° 55' 42.28" W
Posts: 20911
Good Answers: 783
#6

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 4:38 PM

If you put a 4MW generator on the 6th floor, there will be much more than a Mall in the basement, very soon.

Do it right, put it on the ground, where it should be, as PWSlack said!!!!!!

__________________
Luck comes and goes. Skill is forever. Intelligence either is, or it ain't. lyn
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Lollipop Land
Posts: 10
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 5:08 PM

I'll bet there's more than a few people who now wish the back-up generators at Fukushima had been installed on the 6th floor instead of the basement, even it required some architectural engineering

__________________
Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 5440
Good Answers: 266
#8

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/09/2012 6:04 PM
__________________
The relentless pursuit of pacification....
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hop around Toronto, New York & Karachi
Posts: 1849
Good Answers: 19
#9

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/10/2012 12:46 AM

Your Architect needs to confirm. Go down site & korangi are (if you are in Karachi) and you will find boilers/gas engines on roof top. Go behind NRL and you will find all Tanneries having all production machines on first/second floors of the factory (due flood 20 years back prior building the dam). Your Architect needs to confirm the weight/vibration/sound level and it is meaningless to discuss this here even if it is your responsibility.

__________________
I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow. Woodrow Wilson
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 1799
Good Answers: 5
#10

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/10/2012 3:35 AM

1)The civil engineer should design the building accordingly

2)There should be a crane/helicopter to place it in position on vibration isolators designed for this purpose

We installed a 1MW diesel genset on the roof(11th floor) of a building using the crane belonging to the civil contractor. The designer was an Australian Co.

If lifting is difficult go for multiple units of smaller ratings.

__________________
pnaban
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing. Kettle's on.
Posts: 19553
Good Answers: 469
#11

Re: Gas Engine Installation Of 4MW On 6th Floor

05/10/2012 4:03 AM

Has everyone heard the old chestnut about the swimming pool constructed on the top floor? It was never used, because the designer failed to consider the weight of the water in the pool on the structure of the building, and the pressure needed at the ground floor to get the water to that height.

How does the water get to the top of the CN Tower in Toronto, BTW?

__________________
There was a time, not long ago, when people were smarter than their phones... (tips hat to CR4 user Harley.)
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 11 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

ammadsafdar (1); CaptMoosie (2); ducon (1); jack of all trades (1); lyn (1); MagicWand (1); pnaban (1); PWSlack (2); SolarEagle (1)

Previous in Forum: Why Increase In NH3 Suction Pressure On Off Load   Next in Forum: Oxidation Of Heat Treated Parts In Furnace