Info Concerning an Electric Motor Project I Want to Begin

You've got a lot of research to do....I'll start you off with some links...You need to hammer out exactly, what you want to build....

http://www.grassrootsev.com/

http://www.electroauto.com/

ok quick question ... how do you get a an electric motor to produce 500lbs of torque at 65mph most efficiently with a solar panel, battery, electric motor set up.

What in the world are you powering that needs 500 lb/ft at 65 MPH?!?!?

lol im just ignorant i guess ... i dont know how much a chevy silverado 1500 uses in torque when it cruises at 65mph

Something like this...

with a sort of train of these behind..

This trailer generates about 2kw...let's say that's about 2.5hp

The following is based on some quick Googling. I'm using mid-range values from the various sources I browsed. You may find very different numbers from different sources.

• Commercially available solar panels max out at about 20% efficiency.

• Standard solar panel testing uses 1000 watts per square meter irradiance (amount of sunlight reaching the panel) for efficiency ratings.

• That gives us about 200 watts per square meter of solar panels.

• Electrically speaking, one horsepower = 746 watts.

Looks like you're gonna need a REALLY BIG vehicle to get 100 HP directly from solar panels.

well im not sure if i need it directly from the solar panels as i am going to wire around 30 - 40 batteries (in paralell or series im unsure) (77AH batteries?) but i guess that is still considered to be directly from the solar panels.

As SolarEagle stated earlier, you have a lot of homework to do. One piece of homework you should consider is that there already are purely solar vehicles. These endurance race vehicles have as a limitation the foot print of about a standard automobile. The solar array these vehicles carry do charge their backup batteries while they move at their top speeds. These vehicles though do not allow for any grid based re-powering of batteries.

First you need to learn the proper terminology and arithmetic for energy units. Your project is far beyond the present boundaries of practicality.

This would be a more practical setup, to have a small lithium battery powered vehicle that you could park under this charging pavilion....The solar panels could feed into the grid and you could recharge the vehicle at night....

http://greensupercar.com/2011/01/new-green-models/radical-concept-capstone-turbine-cmt-380-hybrid-supercar/

This would be the ultimate....

http://greensupercar.com/2012/03/electric-sport-car-2/320-mph-the-fastest-electric-car-in-the-world-the-buckeye-bullet/

Buckeye Bullet 1

The Buckeye Bullet 1 is a battery electric powered land speed race car, and the first from the Buckeye Bullet team.

The Buckeye Bullet 1 holds the distinction of being the world's fastest electric car with a top recorded speed of 321.834 mph (517.942 km/h). It holds the U.S. electric land speed record at 314.958 mph (508.485 km/h) (Class III/E). It set a BNI (non-FIA) recognized international record at 271.737 mph (437.318 km/h) on October 3, 2004.

Vehicle properties

• Power source: 10,000 rechargeable c-cell batteries
• Motor: Custom 400 horsepower (300 kW) 3-phase AC power motor
• Body material: carbon fiber
• Ride height/ground clearance: 1.5 in (38 mm)
• Curb weight: 4000 lb (1814 kg)
• Length: 31 ft (9.4 m)
• Suspension: 4 wheel independent

[edit]Buckeye Bullet 2The 2007 Buckeye Bullet 2

The Buckeye Bullet 2, or BB2, is the second-generation, student-built, alternative-fuel race car created by the Buckeye Bullet team. It is the first hydrogen fuel cell powered land speed streamliner. The Buckeye Bullet 2 ran for the first time at Speedweek 2007 and recorded a top speed of 223.334 mph (359.421 km/h) on Oct. 10, 2007. At Speedweek 2008, the BB2 eclipsed its previous mark by reaching 286.476 mph (461.038 km/h)^[2], the highest speed ever recorded by a hydrogen/fuel cell vehicle^[3].

On September 25, 2009, the Buckeye Bullet 2 set international land speed records both at 303.025 mph (487.672 km/h) in the flying kilometer and 302.877 mph (487.433 km/h) in the flying mile ^[4].

[edit]Buckeye Bullet 2.5

The Buckeye Bullet 2.5 is a battery electric version of the Buckeye Bullet 2. The BB2.5 uses the same frame and body as the Buckeye Bullet 2, but replaces the fuel cell power source with batteries. The BB2.5 raced for only one season in 2009. This vehicle was intended to be a testbed for several new technologies in consideration for use on the Buckeye Bullet 3. The most significant technology under consideration was the lithium ion batteries. The batteries used for the BB2.5 were A123 Systems 32113 cylindrical cells. The vehicle was able to set a FIA sactioned world record at 307.666 mph.

[edit]Buckeye Bullet 3

The Buckeye Bullet 3 is a new vehicle that is currently in development, building on the technology of the previous vehicles.

[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckeye_Bullet

Well to start out some basic math should put an end to this dream real fast.

200 horsepower would be 746 x 200 = 149,200 watts. Multiply that by 11 hours and you get 1.64 megawatt hours then figure a realistic system efficiency of 90% tops which then comes to around 1.83 MWH.

Right there you would need a lithium based battery system about the size of a van that would cost around $1 million to build give or take.

Solar panel wise given realistic output numbers an array about the size of a football field should come close.

ok maybe im approaching this problem backwards lol ... or im asking the wrong questions...

an electric motor like the EV1 provides 130ish hp for a specific drive time without the use of solar panels... ALL im trying to do is create an intermittent amount of torque (around 300-500) that engages and disengages under specific variables .... obviously the electric motor has to be operated by some type of battery system ... and finally i would like to recharge that battery system through the use of about 500sqft of solar panels

hp might not have been the right calculation for my situation

obviously im not well versed in this field which is why i came to this forum and thank you all for your patience

i would want to provide 295 lb-ft torque constantly for about 12 hours ...

Lots of POWERFUL batteries i assume?

Lots of solarpanels to charge the batteries as they power the EV

Possible?

Are you building a hybrid or electric assist for an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle? Generally this much torque is only used during acceleration. Just curious what you are building?

yes electric assist would be a great term for this set up... but i want both motors to be completely seperate withtheir own complete drivetrains

It would be much more efficient and easier to use a small (1.4L) engine to run a generator to charge the batteries when needed....There are several of these type of setups on the market now...The Chevy Volt for instance....This is called the extended range electric vehicle...The drive train is all electric and the ic motor has no interaction with the drive train at all...This is most efficient because the motor can be run at a steady speed...On the Volt the car can go for ~40 miles electric only, before the motor comes on to charge the batteries...

http://www.pluginamerica.org/vehicles/all

"i would want to provide 295 lb-ft torque constantly for about 12 hours ..."

Well, that's simple. Hang 295 pounds at the end of a foot-long beam mounted on whatever needs the torque. No time limit!

Now, if you want to do some work with those 295 pounds, then we need more information.

FYI: All those automotive ads describing 500 horsepower and/or 295 lb.ft. of torque? Those are peak values that occur at specific engine speeds. They don't actually generate that much power while you're driving down the highway. Generally speaking, you only get those peak numbers during acceleration, and for short periods (a few seconds).

I'm guessing you aren't powering some kind of industrial hoist that actually uses hundreds of lb/ft for hours at a time, so let's try to get realistic. Are you dreaming about a car you would like to build someday?

I wonder if you understand how much torque is produced by an electric motor. If the load is not high, the torque produced is not high. For example the EV1 (assuming you mean the GM EV1) required about 12 hp to drive along at 60 mph. Even at that, a huge solar array would be required to power it while driving: something many times larger and heavier than the vehicle itself.

Study up on solar racers, which have very large panels and very tiny motors powering very light vehicles.

Charging up a battery pack for a car like a Leaf requires a large solar array, and many hours. The car then consumes all the solar generated power in not much more than one hour at 60 mph.

Where did you come up with the need for 295 lb-ft of continuous torque? One cannot estimate energy requirement given only a torque spec. You need to have both torque and rpm to calculate hp, from which you can calculate kW, from which, given a time, you can calculate energy usage in kWh.

Bear in mind that just because a vehicle system is rated at a given power, that power is not consumed all the time.

Bear in mind also that batteries are simply a storage medium. If they can be connected to a fixed solar installation and recharged while the vehicle is stationary then the array can be any size because the vehicle doesn't have to cart it around.

Bear in mind also the Scalextric® solution, which wouldn't need battery storage on the vehicle other than for off-slot manoeuvres.

DrPepper,

Here is a link to a bunch of links related to EVs. This is a good place to start. If you are determined to start shopping now, an 85 HP (peak) 9 inch motor by Advance DC would provide 19 HP continuously. A vehicle requires surprisingly little power to keep it moving, especially if it is light and aerodynamic. This would get you going. A motor controller is a must and will determine how much power you send to the motor. This is probably the gold standard but cost more than gold. Lithium Ion batteries are your high end storage, and they think a lot of them. You will pay double to save some weight over lead acid. Look for the flexible solar panels used on boats, they will not move you down the road, but if the car is sitting in the sun all day they will help charge your batteries. You will also need a high amperage AC charger. The charger's voltage output will have to be compatible with your battery pack

Look at some of the specifications for this electric car and the changes made over the years. This will give you an idea of how the motor, motor controller, and batteries are sized. There is a point of diminishing returns, so bigger is not necessarily better. For example you could have so many batteries, to extend range, that it would require more power just to haul them around, which would decrease range. You have to focus on what you are trying to achieve. You can't have it all! Drag racing EVs batteries only last long enough to heat the tires and get down the track once. The EVs that race across Australia (called the World Solar Challenge), requires the utmost attention to efficiency. The ultimate balancing act is between performance (speed) and efficiency (range).

Here is the depressing part. These motors cost thousands, and so do the controllers, photovoltaic panels and battery packs. By the time I scaled back my dream EV to something I could afford it was about the size of a skateboard. I wish you luck and I hope you have deeper pockets than I do.

One day maybe parts for EVs will be as inexpensive and available as parts for a 350 cid engine. We are just not there yet.

When you have specific questions related to your endeavor the members here will be glad to help. Try to provide as much relevant information as you can about your problem or goal, so they know you are working at least as hard as you're asking them to. Keep us posted on your progress so we can all share in your success!

Unfortunately its clear now you have a lot to learn about power, energy, and electrical/mechanical physics principals in general.

Just tossing random numbers and terms around that sound big is meaningless and shows far more ignorance of the subjects at hand than you may realize.

First off what are you powering/building?

How heavy is it?

How fast will it go?

How quick does it need to get to that speed?

How long/far does it have to travel at that speed?

What financial budget do you have?

What fabrications skills do you have?

What practical experience/understandings do you have in any of these subjects?

And lastly WHY?

its not unfortunate, its a fact that i have already stated ... i have NO electrical background... im not "Just tossing random numbers and terms around that sound big" i am trying to see if my idea is a viable one before i pour millions of dollars into it... my plan is obviously not to do the work in my garage myself. ill need to hire multiple engineers, as well as mechanics, fabricators and machinists to complete this project. i have 2 million in liquid capital available

I think I am going to step out early on this thread, 26 posts and no actual definition of what exactly you are building as of yet, so unless something more informative comes along I am just going to sit back and watch.

You didn't answer the first question that basically relates to what is it or what does it do so for me that pretty much says all I need to know at this point.

You are missing tcmtech's point. You are tossing around random big numbers without an understanding of their meaning. Most of the numbers that you've tossed so far have absolutely nothing to do with electrical engineering. Your latest number, 2 million in liquid capital shows even less understanding of finance than your engineering skills. You cannot validate any research investment by presenting meaningless numbers on an engineering blog. Ironically your defense of your numbers actually admits that you do not understand what they mean.

In my mind, you are rapidly moving from an enthusiastic novice in need of education to a lame charlatan looking to test their sales pitch. I much prefer an enthusiastic novice willing to learn!

If your plan is to build an electric drive system to power your truck this is obviously viable, there are companies that retrofit electric drive systems onto e350 vans that will run them for their first 40 miles on electric power. You could save most of your 2 mil and have them do it for you. If your goal is to build a prototype, build it from the ground up and use the Chevy to ... uh... I can't think of anything to do with the Chevy.

You seem to be undecided whether the 300± lb-ft of torque needs to be constant versus intermittent. Maybe you should try to describe exactly what you want to do, and why. For instance, it isn't really clear whether this project is stationary or mobile.

it needs to be intermittent ... allowing for the batteries to charge when not in use. But its very possible that the Electric motor will run for 5 hours constantly ... it will be used in both mobile AND stationary applications ... i apoligize for the vagueness

Why don't you pay $10k up front for a couple months of consultation to hammer out what you really want to do, and what is conceivable versus miles off the graph?

i will ... and probably much more. i still havent even started the patent process so you can see the infancy of this project. Thanks for your input

If a patentable idea is involved, that might explain some of the vagueness. However, many readers are likely to find that exasperating.

You should get a knowledgeable engineer on board, protecting yourself via an NDA.

I think everyone has granted the patience you ask for, but throwing out things like "two million dollars" and "patent process" is making me feel like I've fallen into the "Negative Space" and can't get up.

I'd feel better if I could at least learn a bit from a comparative analysis of 3 phase AC versus DC for the traction motor of an EV. I'm thinking 3 Phase would be superior.

I apologize again for the vagueness and ignorance, but because i am so in the dark on a lot of the facts i would much rather learn as much as i can on an internet forum, asking a few questions and eliminating a few options... BEFORE i actually employ the applicable engineers and fabricators (ie 5-10 professionals), sign all the confidential disclosure agreements, and hit a brick wall. One, i don't want to look stupid, I'm just a man with an idea. And two, waste anymore time if it is INCONCIEVABLE at this time. meaning i KNOW it will work. its just that, as we all know, certain things in this industry haven't advanced enough for them to be usable in great applications. Also, this innovation would revolutionize an industry that is used around the globe on a huge scale... and if conceivable, would better humanity so greatly that it would effect EVERYBODY in less than 10 years.

The only brick walls you will hit here are the ones you put up yourself.

If we had a dollar for every post we burned up dealing with persons who wandered in here with "A new idea that will change the world on 10 years or less" that turned out to already exist or be pure fantasy a number of us probably would be retired by now!

Either explain what it is your idea consists of so we can explain in detail the flaws/realities of its practicality or just quit.

Right now it appears is if you know so little about your own idea that you cant even explain what it is or what it does or should do to the point the odds are it probably wont save the world either.

Believe me no one here is going to steal your concept especially since given the info you have produced so far it appears its likely so far beyond the realm of physics cost and practicality already that this whole thread is closer to being nothing more than troll posting if anything.

The point is you can either get a baseline consultation from a world wide group of very intelligent and highly skilled engineers and the like for free here or stay clammed up and spend your money and likely get even less input from a few specialists who will at minimal just laugh as they take as much of your money as they can!

SO WTF IS IT? A vehicle, an industrial process machine, an aircraft, something else entirely?

(I really hope for your sake this does not turn out to be another DAS, Joe Fordham, Kastruptsy, Saveone12, or similar crackpots device concept.)

Learn how these work first....

i do know how those work, not the numbers, but how they use the diesel engine to power the electric motors ... which i believe is done that way for the sake of eliminating a transmission? thereby eliminating power-loss and moving massive amounts of weight faster?

Knowing attributes is not quite the same as knowing how they work as a system.

The principal reason for my posting that was to give you an idea of the scale of your proposal.

The numbers is where it is all at my friend.

If he wants a hybrid Chevy Tahoe check the specks on the Chevy Silverado hybrid. That project has had some of the best engineers in the world working it's problems out. I have seen one of the silverado pickups with 123,000 miles on it as a test bed for premium battery systems from a lithium battery manufacturer. And I can tell you that I have not seen any numbers like you are trying to get, regardless of the money spent on the battery source or solar system. It is just not feasible with current technology regardless of the money thrown at it. to confirm what I am saying try the DIY electric car site and they can and will confirm most of what has been said here since several of the people on that site are ones that have set some of the records mentioned here and the best controller manufactures frequent there for feed back on their systems. their most current system will feed 3000 amps in to a pair of 11" motors in an 2012 drag Camaro. I don't think they can sustain their peak numbers for more than 10-15 seconds regardless of pumped up cooling systems or otherwise they would already be doing it.

This sounds for all the world like a truck you're getting data for. Am I wrong?

Ideally, more information is necessary - like a load profile, ie; actual lengths of time charging & discharging, as 200 or 100hp for a full 12 hours is an awful lot of power to store in a battery system and also, the motor for this would be pretty big as the duty is so onerous - it would need quite a bit of cooling. I'm thinking "12 hour hill climb", or something like that.

Try calculating it on simple Ohms law principles, just to see if you're in the right ball park with what you're anticipating, and battery characteristic curves - Li-Ion or even Li-Iron (not quite as efficient but much longer lasting). I could go on, but in the spirit of CR4, someone REALLY knowledgeable is bound to come along and point you in the right direction.

Good luck with this one.

Cheers,

Martin.

Hi drp.

I read your electric thread and ask if I can help?

(because you have plenty of money to apply to it. See, first things first, from me - honesty.)

I have many similar ideas and no money, so we may be able to get a long?

1. All (or most) things are possible. You only need time and money. (think positive.)

2. Be realistic. While most things are achieveable, do you really need / want to do it?

3. Gather your resources. Stick to your goals. Achieve your targets. Or, start anew.

It's that easy really. One last thing - enjoy the journey, as no one gets out alive.

As a token of my help... There are now new batteries under development e.g.
Ceramatec President Ashok V. Joshi and his team John Gordon Ceramatec in Salt Lake City. http://www.ceramatec.com/technology/ceramic-solid-state-ionic-technologies/advanced-energy-storage/solid-electrolyte-batteries.php
also: liquid metal batteries, holding up to 1 mega watt (!) - the future looks good.

I have never ceased to wonder and the world is a wonderful place in which to play.

Just cross my palm with silver. (even I have to make things pay.)

jt.

On his death bed, my grandfather sold me his gold watch.

I want to thank you all very much for your help in this matter so far... i just decided to spend the money and get some consultation going on this project... i met with a lawyer today and basically signed away about $58,000 just to get this thing off the ground ... I'll definately keep you all posted, Thanks again

Now a lawyer can buy a Tesla Model S.

Maybe just a down payment for now. A few more fleecings like this and he will have it paid off in no time though.

No, i have to protect the idea first ... it will cost me over 100k JUST to achieve such minor goal

Maybe once your idea is protected you can tell us what it is.

You must be very confident in spite of what appears to be a significant know-how gap. Playing dumb and fishing were you?

Sorry, this is utterly and totally wrong.

Any patent attorney that proposes large fees for an idea about which the "inventor" knows nothing is a fraud. A good patent attorney will be able to to dismiss an idea like yours for free. An invention must have in inventor. The inventor must be able to reduce the idea to practice. In other words, the disclosure in the application must be sufficiently clear for someone else, skilled in the art, to reproduce the invention. Abstract ideas are not patentable. (Often you will hear the "Ideas are not patentable." That is not strictly true, but ideas at your level, where you no nothing about the technology, and therefore have no idea if the "invention" will actually work, are not patentable.)

I'd recommend that you write up your own patent application, complete with rough drawings and rough calculations. (Read one of the many books on how to write a patent yourself.) Also build a prototype at a smaller scale. Virtually all ideas that involve driving something with an electric motor and recharging the batteries are very scalable, meaning that you can prove the concept at a small scale and have confidence that it will work at a large scale. (Huge solar panels are made of numerous small cells that have a characteristic efficiency level, for example. Small motors are close enough in efficiency to large motors to prove a concept.)

If your idea works, take your self-written patent application and prototype to a patent attorney. If it has stunningly clear market value, you can find patent attorneys that will do the patent work for a piece of the project. Such arrangements are very rare, however. The fact that such arrangements are rare is a good indication that patentable ideas rarely make money.

Examples of ideas that are not remotely close to being patentable:

- A land vehicle of any size which is powered by one or many electric motors, in which recharging is accomplished by stationary solar cells or solar cells mounted to the vehicle, or any other form of generator mounted in the vehicle or outside the vehicle.

- A hoist of any description that is powered by electric motor(s) and any combination of DC or AC power sources, and that is recharged at times by solar panels or any other generating device.

,

My take on this whole thing is either he is a basic troll that has no real invention and no money and is just playing this along so that he does not have to admit he is a clueless half wit with no idea about the reality of what he is suggesting, or

He is a spoiled rich dummy who inherited a pile of money from mommy and daddy and has spent his whole life living under the protection of 'he who has enough money is never wrong' and has never had to accept or deal directly with that facts that no matter how much cash you have the laws of nature don't care who you are and will not bow to anyone.

Overall given the claims and time line of this thread, 6/24/2012 - 6/27/2012 (three days), I somewhat doubt he could have gotten a patent written up this quickly let alone an honest attorney or any engineers that would stand behind him on it which leads me more to suspect he is just a penniless basement dwelling half wit troll trying to pose as a somebody with something when in fact it has become painfully clear that he has nothing and knows even less.

Intelligent educated and well off people with inventive minds just don't approach things like this the way he as done it. Any person of these resources and basic experience would know enough about the terminology, proper formulas and conversion processes, along with the basic realistic working aspects of present day tech even if its not on the cutting edge to be able to explain what it is they are attempting to create.

Fortunately for me professional expertise is not a prerequisite of being an inventor. Fortunately for humanity inventors come from all walks of life. Regardless of where my money came from, i am going to use it for this invention. i am going to hire a team of engineers, fabricators, and machinists to create (in the MOST efficient manner possible) my invention. From my brain to the drawing board, from the drawing board to a working prototype. conventionalism is a choice ... not a requirement

You sound sincere and confident.

I wish you the best of luck.

Actually professional expertise and knowledge is a requirement to be able to invent something that actually works and without it its just daydreaming and pissing money away.

What it is all going to come down to is that all the money in the world still wont make the laws of physics bow to your will so what you will end up with is not likely going to come anywhere close to what you are dreaming of.

My tally says that in the three days since you came here you supposedly spent $58,000 so far and still don't have any idea about how to build what you are talking about so I am going to take a wild guess that $2 million probably wont go very far. At this rate I am thinking dead broke by possibly mid September or sooner as my guess.

BTW a number of us wouldn't mind having ring side seats to this invention fest just to see how far $2 million goes when managed by someone the we suspect may not have clue as to what they are doing but hey the economy really could use your money at least!

I would love to see the look when our good doctor tries to hire a team of engineers with only 2 million something (it might be Indian rupees). This guy is so imprecise he hasn't even identified a money unit. Maybe he has an old Italian 2 million Lire note.

So far we know he wants it to go 65 MPH with up to 500 foot pounds of torque at that speed which is similar to a Ford 460 CI V8 I built some years ago that pushed the 400+ HP power level.

Electric power can do that for a fact and it has been done before so thats not an issue however it wont happen with an EV1 electric motor (3ph induction type rated at 137 HP @ 110 ft/lb torque & 7000 RPM) or at least maybe only a few seconds at best!

From there the overall numbers and concepts regarding the battery and solar charging systems rapidly fall apart as they reach deeply into the realms of scientifically and physically impossible regardless of how much money or how big of engineering team he has.

Thank you guys for all your support ... i can completely say that this are what i expected to find on my thread ... sorry i do not meet your impeccable standards... at this point i believe i am just going to bow out of this thread ... i am self proclaimed ignorant in this field yet that still seems to create some sort of obligatory threat simply because I'm doing things a little differently. i came to this thread to learn and try to put the pieces together so i may ADVANCE in this project. Sad to say that I'm wasting more time trying to read all the accusational comments than i am getting useful information...

For all of you guys that did give me some useful information, thank you and i will try to keep you updated as to the projects success ...

We are just jealous. It's not everyday you get a ringside seat to see a car wreck, but we actually got an invitation to BE in one. Give us time to train.

I do wish you all of the best in this and all of your endeavors. One of the mistakes you made in this endeavor was coming to any forum to learn anything. We are not a substitute for education. At our very best, we can be a guidance counsellor for you. At our worst we can lead you on by giving you the answer to a few quizzes but abandon you for the exam.

Good Luck

Redfred,

Sad day. If you are coming to CR4 as a social site, or one in which you deny that you could learn anything, you are going to seem like a pompous ass who thinks he knows everything. You are going to stand by the statement that a reader should not expect to learn anything? That no one (you'll notice that I didn't say everyone, this thread an excellent example) could teach you? That is what happens when you give up livin'. Don't do it Red!

Yeah, and I lose my focus of what CR4 should be on a round number of replies too. I'm getting very tired though of the free engineering request board that CR4 is becoming. I use to enjoy teaching enthusiastic students willing to work but needed direction. Let me offer a synopsis rant that is leading me to reject teaching or gaining any useful knowledge at CR4.

I advocated many months back that we should try to provide a Socratic approach in dealing with students where we help them solve their problem instead of just providing answers. While this approach did lead to a handful of successful sessions (I've been acknowledged on at least three students scholastic final projects) far too often others here have jumped in with an unexplained Google or Wikipedia link or even worse just an answer for the student. I still wish to try and teach but obviously the members of CR4 do not.

Similarly CR4 has had many people coming to us that have asked how to do something that should obviously only be tried by individuals authorized to do this work. This has run the spectrum of N00kV power line wiring, hot tapping of natural gas lines, structural engineering projects and the list goes on. I have regularly pointed out that amateurs should not try these activities. I usually point out also that baffled authorized workers in these fields must work with their pertinent authorities to verify any information they from us or anyone other than their authority. Repeatedly my safety concerns have been scoffed at by many here. Why would I listen to the opinions of people with no care or understanding of the possible hazards?

Then there is the CR4 administrative blog recently posed the question if CR4 is a resource or negative space. I agree that improvements are needed here to try and return CR4 to what it once was but if polite abuse of foolish questions and comments disappear how can sound advice be separated.

I maybe just in a blue funk because not even flights of proffered fantasy can be debated here for fun without resistance.

A couple of million dollars won't even get this charlatan an average major league baseball player. It certainly won't get him a salaried engineering team and fabrication facility, let alone any insurance for R&D. This leads me to only two plausible conclusions of this guest. He is either practicing his confidence skills on us so he may scam gullible investors or we've been visited by a troll.

I for one have had my fill.

<un-subscribe>

"Who do you imagine is accusing you? And of what?"

Well I did speculate that he was either a troll or a clueless half wit with inherited money.

Building a trusted "team" can be a constructive move. Chose carefully.

Hopefully your team members will have your interests at heart, however,
I would advise caution on their selection, more, your commitments to them.

(based upon my personal experience of professionals, who do not actually make
anything to sell them selves, have to obtain their living from.... Take care.)

Good luck with your project, please keep us informed of your progress if possible.

jt.

Definition of an Optimist - someone who hasn't got all the facts yet.

A Little boy asks his father "Can you make a noise like a frog?"
"Why's that sonny?" he asks.

"Because grandma says that when you croak we are all going to Florida"

On the principle that a fool and his money are soon parted, this whole situation may be corrected pretty shortly. It looks like some shyster has already benefited far to much.

Having re-read the replies throughout the thread I have to agree with the many
(knowledgeable) advisors who are disappointed with your legal "start" and even more
so with the amount ($58K) you claim required to act for you. Unbelievable.

I would recommend, to drp, if he could reconsider his "start" and renege on this
total amount of money, perhaps offering / making a lesser initial "consultation" fee?

Like many (including myself) it is easy to get "mislead" (read taken in) by these
professional people into believing what one is about to do is revolutionary, only to
be later informed (after parting with serious money) that in fact your "sliced bread"
has been patented previously elsewhere, or such like, cancellation. (so sorry!)

Not knowing anything about the persons the op has contacted it is unfair of me
to pass judgement. However, based on many personal experiences far more money
has been "lost" by me, than that has actually achieved anything, the legal way.

I write hoping the op just may reflect on this advice, given by many members here.
Realistically, I fear he will learn like we all do, by experience and not by listening.

jt.

My little budgie broke his leg, so sad. So I made a splint for him from a few matches,
and bound them to his leg, and put him back in his cage. His little face lite up, and
then I realised, the floor of his cage had a sand paper sheet....

Its been a week now and I wonder how much of his $2 million is left.