Login | Register
The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Previous in Forum: Two Stroke Engine   Next in Forum: Relation Between Turning Radius and Speed of Vehicle
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







26 comments
Commentator

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 79

Piston Design

06/25/2012 7:18 AM

Ppl,

I have a doubt why not a piston be trianngular why is it always cylindrical.

Do somebody knows the advantages of triangular piston

Regards

Srinivasaraghavan.L

__________________
ragavan
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: piston
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing. Kettle's on.
Posts: 19574
Good Answers: 469
#1

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 7:44 AM

Hint #1: given the changing conditions of temperature and wear how is a triangular piston ring supposed to operate?

Hint #2: how else is a seal to be provided at the corners of the hypothetical triangular piston given the difficulties involved in machining the shapes?

__________________
There was a time, not long ago, when people were smarter than their phones... (tips hat to CR4 user Harley.)
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 8728
Good Answers: 100
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 8:26 AM

alittle more,

when geometry's converge, so does the stress.

__________________
phoenix911
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing. Kettle's on.
Posts: 19574
Good Answers: 469
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 8:43 AM
__________________
There was a time, not long ago, when people were smarter than their phones... (tips hat to CR4 user Harley.)
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 3967
Good Answers: 180
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 8:48 AM

May I add space the cylindrical shape gives optimal performance in the space it takes up.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kennewick, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 2808
Good Answers: 102
#13
In reply to #4

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:58 PM

Just a visual of what I think you are talking about (to support your point!):

I'm sure you could rotate the triangle and get it a little larger while maintaining the cylinder wall minimum thichness, but it would only slightly increase the area.

__________________
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." -- Albert Einstein
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 959
Good Answers: 96
#25
In reply to #13

Re: Piston Design

06/28/2012 2:37 PM

Good answer, although I suspect that OP might not understand the implications.

Heat loss from the combustion chamber reduces power and efficiency. Heat loss increases with surface area. For regular polygons extruded into a prismatic "cylinder", the triangle provides the absolute worst ratio of volume to surface area. So from an efficiency and power output perspective, it would be the absolute last choice. Adding more sides improves the situation, until an infinite number are used.

In addition, it has a host of structural, weight-to-volume, uniformity-of-expansion, hot spot, machinability, sealing, etc., etc., etc issues. In essentially every imaginable sense, a triangular piston would be the worst possible choice, although shapes like a star would be even worse.

__________________
Think big. Drive small.
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 5474
Good Answers: 226
#15
In reply to #2

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 3:19 PM

POINT taken.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 673
Good Answers: 3
#18
In reply to #1

Re: Piston Design

06/26/2012 2:58 AM

sorry slack. you already had it covered.

ga from me

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#5

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 8:55 AM

The better question would have been what are the disadvantages of triangular piston.

See earlier posts.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 2948
Good Answers: 296
#6

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 9:14 AM

A form of a triangle, a Reuleaux triangle, is the basis for the wankel rotary engine, but it's not a piston it's a rotor. There are some advantages and disadvantages to the wankel. It has fewer moving parts, but is less efficient than a piston engine for powering a car. I've heard that Mazda is considering using the wankel as part of a hybrid gas-electric system. Perhaps if tuned to run at a constant RPM it might be more efficient.

Wankel_Cycle_anime

__________________
"...any library is a good library that does not contain a volume by Jane Austen. Even if it contains no other book." - Mark Twain
Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancleave, Ms about 30 miles inland from Biloxi and the coast
Posts: 2375
Good Answers: 82
#7

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 10:44 AM

Honda was working on an oval piston design a few years back. I haven't heard anything lately.

__________________
Almost as smart as the average bear
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kennewick, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 2808
Good Answers: 102
#8

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:23 PM

This is a question to make you think: "In manufacturing, how would you successfully machine the "cylinder" it fits into?"

__________________
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." -- Albert Einstein
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 3967
Good Answers: 180
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:27 PM

EDM

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 79
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:33 PM

Yes you are correct it is the question to think i have studied in my kinematics during my college days that oval piston has less wear and gives more efficiency.

But my question is cylindrical shape only the shape of piston or some design tried and failed or somebody has idea about it??

__________________
ragavan
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 8728
Good Answers: 100
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:48 PM

I do not have engine development back ground. But I think you would have to narrow down on, What type of efficiencies are you looking for?

Combustion, exhaust, wear?

__________________
phoenix911
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 79
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 12:51 PM

say i studied that if you use an oval piston your friction losses will get reduced which results in increase of power and fuel consumption.

__________________
ragavan
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 3967
Good Answers: 180
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 2:37 PM

If there is any increase are they enough to warrant the increase in cost of manufacturing. A round cylinder bore is relatively easy to machine compared to an oval.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 45
#19
In reply to #12

Re: Piston Design

06/27/2012 8:18 AM

Pretty slick idea. Honda thought so back in the 1970's - http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1979pistonengine/

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 45
#20
In reply to #12

Re: Piston Design

06/27/2012 8:23 AM

"When I look back at it, I'm not sure if we were experimenting with cutting-edge technologies or obsessed with foolish ideas," recalled Toshimitsu Yoshimura, an engineer involved in the development of the NR500's oval piston engine.

Register to Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1217
Good Answers: 136
#16

Re: Piston Design

06/25/2012 6:01 PM

I have seen rectangular and square "pistons" in very specialised applications (Vacuum pumps) and so irregular shaped pistons are not impossible.

The advantages (possibly) of having alternate pistons orientated each way might lead to a shorter length of engine for the same displacement and might even mean less material in the castings.

The disadvantages relate to the processing difficulties in making such components to the necessary clearances.

Ddo not be afraid to ask the questions that challenge the boundaries. There is no shame in such, provided that we learn and move forward. Be prepared that some questions end up being folly and can be left behind on the journey as experience, unlike some who become fixated on a hoped outcome that cannot be.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 673
Good Answers: 3
#17

Re: Piston Design

06/26/2012 2:54 AM

it would be almost impossible to design a compression sealing system for a trianglular piston. what would advantage of a triangular pistion? the piston would have hot spots, expansion differentials, wear patterns ,bore misalighnment, ect.

sounds like a bad idea.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 34° 34' 21.60" N, 92° 55' 42.28" W
Posts: 20922
Good Answers: 784
#21

Re: Piston Design

06/27/2012 9:46 AM

Svg.L,

There are no advantages to a non-round piston/cylinder configuration.

Why ever would you think that there were?

__________________
Luck comes and goes. Skill is forever. Intelligence either is, or it ain't. lyn
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 107
#23
In reply to #21

Re: Piston Design

06/28/2012 1:04 PM

"Hello, Lyn-Door Industries. How may I help You?"

Ah yes, I am looking for a piston ring compressor for my 2013 Toyota Corolla.

Do you know what engine is in it?

Yes it is the 1.8 L 4 cylinder.

......Oh, I see. Do you know the Engine code, or the shape of the piston?

Yes, it is the Z code engine.

......Ohhh, That is the engine with pistons the shape of triangles. Do you happen to know the dimensions of the piston?

No.

Do you know the angels of the piston?

No. Why do you make buying a simple ring compressor so complex?

__________________
Bob
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 34° 34' 21.60" N, 92° 55' 42.28" W
Posts: 20922
Good Answers: 784
#24
In reply to #23

Re: Piston Design

06/28/2012 2:33 PM

We at LynDoor™Industires always ship 3 sets of triangular rings. They have a nasty habit of breaking at the angle when they are expanded for installation onto the piston.

__________________
Luck comes and goes. Skill is forever. Intelligence either is, or it ain't. lyn
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 8728
Good Answers: 100
#26
In reply to #24

Re: Piston Design

06/28/2012 2:40 PM

They have a nasty habit of breaking at the angle when they are expanded for installation onto the piston.

So what LynDoor™Industries did was to revise the instruction manual, which consisted of this little addition;

Install until Triangle breaks, when it breaks you now have conformation the install was successful and complete.

__________________
phoenix911
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida & Ireland
Posts: 353
Good Answers: 26
#22

Re: Piston Design

06/27/2012 12:24 PM

Yes, triangular pistons, square crankshaft and pentagonal wheels. Can't think why it hasn't been done. It's the type of thing that Michael Kroll, Patent Agent, would be only to be pleased to patent and relieve you of thousands of $.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 26 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); bob c (1); drmilr (2); durtieduck (2); energyconversion (1); jack of all trades (1); Just an Engineer (1); K_Fry (1); lyn (2); Mikerho (2); ozzb (3); phoenix911 (3); PWSlack (2); ragavan (2); ronseto (1); Usbport (1)

Previous in Forum: Two Stroke Engine   Next in Forum: Relation Between Turning Radius and Speed of Vehicle