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Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/07/2012 12:13 PM

I want to replace automatic garage door with insulated wall to convert the garage to a play area. I will build up a wooden floor with 2x6 frame plus insulation inside over the concrete garage floor.But what to do over the concrete floor at the entrance?How to make an insulated ( 2x4 wooden frame) wall over the concrete base which is close to ground level? I need to have atleast 6 inch square concrete beam over floor at entrance ( to join the beams on sides)and should bond with base too. It is not load bearing wall and no need to break the concrete to do a foundation. A sketch will help. It is an Independent house in NJ, USA ,with bedroom over garage. You can give some website references. For such small job I do not want to enage an Architect.

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#1

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 12:42 PM

It is not clear what you want. You want a sketch so you don't need to pay someone to produce a proper sketch?

Send a picture of the door area.

New Jersey must have building codes and ordinances to be followed.

Good luck.

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#2

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 1:01 PM

Just cement a row of bricks across the door way... you don't need a concrete beam (that's just to gain some height to stop water splashing up onto your timber)
Put a damp proof membrane over it, you can get stuff in a narrow roll (like roofing felt, or rubber) then put your bottom beam (sole plate?) onto that. It's not load bearing like you said.
Good old gravity will hold it there and the rest of the studwork can be screwed to the walls which will hold it all together
No need for over engineering IMHO. Anyhow, if it wants converting back to a garage at a later day you don't want to go mad, also if you do it as a 'permanent structure for human habitation' as opposed for sort of 'casual use' you should prob' meet all sorts of daft rules and regulations.
Del

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#3

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 1:15 PM

Since it is in NJ, they have very strict rules as to ordinances and even who can do the work. My Brother-in-law had a house in NJ and he made a walkway between the house and garage. He didn't get a permit and the authorities ordered him to have it removed and done by a licensed contractor.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 3:21 PM

Post deleted by building inspectors.
Del

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#16
In reply to #3

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 11:42 PM

You're kidding right?

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/08/2012 12:17 AM

No, #3 is exactly right. I live in the same state. Many townships have people going around trying to find work performed without permit. A neighbor built a shed in the back to house a tractor and plenty of tools. Poured concrete for floor. Mistake. City found it out. Fined and ordered to rip it down. Later he rebuilt, with no permanent (looking) foundation, no problem. I learned from similar cases. Nothing I do can be claimed to be a permanent one, hence no code violation.

The Radioamateur League worked on getting code for antennas valid for the whole country. Still, one has to appear front of the planning commitee. $600+ per appearance. The first time, they are clueless, the second time a lawyer is not present, the third time, they still say NO. And never mind the countrywide code. You are out of $1800 for a NO. All that, for wanting to pour a 1-3 m3 concrete for a 3-4 stories high lattice tower. Never mind that, the concrete is the safe solution. A temporary, cable guyed one is acceptable, because it does not have the concrete foundation.

To make it sure, that no good deed goes unpunished, all home improvements done with a city permit get their taxes raised right away. So, you do what you can, yourself.

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#4

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 1:35 PM

You need to contact the local building inspector, they will give you guidance....Here is a good plan for action(see link)....

http://www.ehow.com/how_5652495_enclose-garage.html

.

http://www.ehow.com/how_8054524_convert-garage-door-opening-wall.html

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 4:31 PM

Those E-how things are totally pathetic, not worth linking. E.G.
No mention of damp proof course at all. Aluminium sheet between wood and concrete, drilled straight through??? That'll keep the damp out? Water will splash straight up onto the timber, and probably come up through the concrete where it's been drilled.
I saw one of their 'How to make a bow' it was rubbish.
Del

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 4:42 PM

Agreed. E-how should google to find out how to do E-how!

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 4:56 PM

I agree.

Waste of bandwidth.

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#10
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Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 5:13 PM

I would almost dare to propose a "CR4-How", since the required knowledge, experience and understanding clearly reside here. But the words 'Pandora' and 'Box' send shivers down the proverbial spine. (btw. Isn't that where Shroedinger parked his famous cat (meaning the box, not the spine)?)

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 8:49 PM

I want to know how to recalibrate prover loop.

Why is the sky blue?

How the DC solinoid working?

what is the diffrence between electrical length and physical length?

We're already there.

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#25
In reply to #14

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/08/2012 10:14 AM

My uncle Jeb has 110,000 volt lines runnin thro' his farm , can we throw de wire over dem to run Ma's new lectric fence ?

do ya'll think i should wear rubber gloves like Ma use for washin the dishes or mebe i doan needum ?

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/08/2012 11:26 AM

Doan needum ifn ya'll wearing rubba boots.

Jist attch da lectric fence end thirst den toss the bailing wire over dem hummin' devils.

Keep yur hounds away. Y'alll don't wanna be losing a huntin' dawg now.

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#13
In reply to #6

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 8:19 PM

It's just a basic plan for doing the project as a whole....If you'll notice it says to submit a blueprint plan of the project to local government permitting office...If the plans don't meet local regulation, then the project would not be allowed...The second link does say to apply sheathing to the exterior wall and siding over that....Fastening treated studs to the floor does not involve drilling thru the slab, which is likely to be 6" to 8" thick....I'm not here to defend the E-how methods, as I find they fall short on many things as well...but in this case I think a good basic plan of attack is presented in a clear and comprehensible way....so there....

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#7

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/07/2012 4:31 PM

If it's just a play area, leave the door in place, it will keep the weather off your new wall. And nobody will see you working. Put the supplies inside, and shut the door!

Remove whatever door hardware you find unnecessary or in the way. Spray foam any cracks and paint to match and hide the foam.

Build your interior wall out of treated lumber. You can sheathe the side to the door before you stand it up. Cover the windows or something so the wall doesn't show from the outside.

When the wall is up, insulate and do any wiring, and sheathe it, I would use more plywood, but maybe green sheetrock would be ok, it's water resistant.

Don't worry about the new wall being on the ground, it's treated wood. A few tapcons will keep it in place.

If anyone asks, it's temporary, necessary for homeland security. And Zombies.

"Don't ask, don't tell" is still valid in New Jersey, right?

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#27
In reply to #7

Re: Making wooden frame wall over concrete

07/08/2012 9:06 PM

I like your plan. I am wondering why you need a wooden floor at all. My garage floor never gets damp. I would think that a waterproof barrier, and indoor outdoor carpet would be OK. The wall could be made in sections, and bolted together for removal if necessary. I don't think it would become an issue in my area. My garage is fully finished, so have always thought of doing this, but need the storage space unless I add another garage. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Build-the-Perfect-Zombie-Survival-Kit/

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#11

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/07/2012 7:25 PM

If you change the exterior without a permit, you may well run afoul of these guys, the dreaded NJ DCA:

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/

Lower the door, caulk the joint(s) and cover inside with insulation and board. You didn't say how you propose to heat it.

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#12

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/07/2012 8:06 PM

New Jersey. Sorry about your luck.

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#15

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/07/2012 11:35 PM

There are kits you can use to make the garage doors airtight (mostly) and better insulated, and still functioning. A large, strong polyethylene sheet takes care of the rest. 2"" styrofoam under the plywood floor will give adequate insulation. Tongue and groove edge on the plywood sheet will make a floating floor. No need for 2x anything, except at the edges o9f the floor. Do the whole thing with fire safety in mind, as you are the responsible one.

In all likelihood, you will find, that the garage walls and ceiling are uninsulated. No matter, what kind of heat you are envisioning, that alone will make the space unnhabitable in deep winter. For high summer some kind of aircond. is needed. Either by tapping into the central one, or a $200 window one.

The beauty of all this is, that the alterations are not permanent. Less chance to get hassle. But, do not trust the city. A few years ago they got the brilliant idea to demand $15 permit to repair a simple faucet. And a few more. The citizens ignored it, but professionals could lose their license, if trying to escape it.

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#17

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/07/2012 11:46 PM

6x2?!!! Why?

Seems like you don't have much an affinity for size of things(unless I've missed something in your brief).

Maybe paying someone to design it will save you more in material than it would cost you.

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#19

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 2:23 AM

It seems to have gone un-noticed that the OP's location is India.
Not everyone lives in Jew Jersey.
Del
(I'm out... I should probably link to E-how to let you see how I will accomplish this)

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 3:09 AM

Genuine typo above... I meant New Jersey...
I only noticed too late to edit, I don't want anyone thinking I was trying to be offensive.
Del
(The J is next to the N)

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 7:12 AM

Del, you weren't that far off! LOL

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#31
In reply to #21

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/12/2012 4:09 AM

Hi Del,

Well spotted, I think the OP just needs to grease the right palm and things will be OK.

John

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#20

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 2:26 AM

a good vapor barrier and ventilation is a must. consult a "GOOD" contractor.

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#23

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 7:24 AM

Have you checked to see what might happen to your taxes when you convert from a garage to an additional room? You might want to leave the doors as someone suggested and just finish the walls and floor. There are materials available to cover cement floors that should be suitable for a play room.

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#24

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/08/2012 7:45 AM

We require some additional information regarding the existing conditions of this house:

1. How is the existing foundation wall, on either side of and under, the garage door constructed? Is it cast-in-place concrete or Concrete Masonry Units (CMU)? You should be matching the existing construction as much as possible.

2. Is there an existing foundation wall under the lip of the garage door slab? If not, there will be an insufficient existing concrete slab thickness to act as a foundation wall regardless if it's a load bearing wall or not. You must remember that even if the house is located in New Jersey you have to deal with "frost heave" issues during the Winter and early Spring months when you have insufficient foundation depth below grade. Remember, this is NOT India "Toto".......

3. How much of the new foundation (in the garage door location) is exposed above grade? Typically, in the Northeast USA states, a minimum of 18-inches vertical depth of exposed foundation wall is required between the ground surface to the underside of the new exterior wooden wall plates; this is needed to act as a "termite break". In NJ, this requirement may be even greater than what I have stated, and you will have to check with the local Code Enforcement Officer (CEO) having jurisdiction for a determination.

4. The State of New Jersey is one of the most difficult states to obtain a Building Permit of any type in the US. You will have to go before a Township Planning Board (and possibly the Zoning Board of Appeals-----ZBA) with paid permit application as well as accurate construction plans that must be approved by the CEO first after his/her review. Your project approval and final determination is at their collective whim, with your only recourse being the ZBA and possibly the Civil Courts.

5. IF you are planning to convert the basement into "habitable space", then you are going to be fighting an uphill, and quite possibly a loosing, battle with the ZEO, the Planning Board, and the ZBA because there are a whole host of fire and building code issues that you must conform to....chiefly amongst them will be that you must provide a minimum of 2 ingress and egress points to and from the basement living quarters in the event of a fire or a gas leak or a furnace malfunction, etc. If you provide anything less than this requirement you are in essence signing away the lives of those people living in the basement.....it will be a death trap and you will be held liable in both the Civil and Criminal Courts of Law. Also, many basements have insufficient floor-to-ceiling height that can be deemed habitable.

I know about these code issues because I am a Registered Professional Engineer and have been practicing engineering for nearly 35 years.

I am also a member of our Village Planning Board, so I am familiar with said code enforcement issues and our state Fire and Building Code requirements, which are quite similar in many aspects to those in New Jersey.

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#28
In reply to #24

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/09/2012 12:31 AM

Thanks for all the information provided. The permit has already been applied and it is legal way. The authorities wanted a sketch for the changes in garage opening only. (Not necessarily from Architect for this small job) I was told,no one was interested. I happen to be at NJ from India and my relation requested me for a sketch, as I am an engineer. Not knowing what way to proceed, I thought of taking help from learned and experienced friends from CR4. Floor may be we do 4x2 as some one sugested and may be we show in sketch a brickwork upto 8inch level with termite protection and then do the wall with insulation, with a window to cover the opening.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/09/2012 1:20 AM

Sounds right.

In Oz there is "The light Timber Framing Code" which is not available free on the internet (which totally blows) but is available at the public libraray/college library.

You can find excerpts on the internet but not the whole deal.

The actual code has lot's of pictures to take example from to make your task easier.

Have a Google. Your local jurisdiction will have a similar publication I'm sure, check your local library.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Making Wooden Frame Wall Over Concrete

07/09/2012 7:24 AM

You need a permit and that permit must be hung or placed where everyone can see before beginning work.

Sometimes you can get help from the building code inspection office on how to submit the necessary paperwork to get an approved permit. They may be busy, but if you can get one of the inspectors for a few free minutes he can show you what to do. Generally, those inspectors have worked as carpenters or contract builders and have a huge amount of experience.

Another tact is to go to Home Depot and wander into the lumber department. Look for an older man wearing an orange apron and ask him what materials you need to do this and explain that the city building code inspection office needs a drawing of the project and you are unsure what to submit. Again, most of the older men working in the lumber department were home contractors that are semi-retired and have a wealth of experience. Since they make money selling you materials those guys have a vested interest in helping you out.

New Jersey is a bit of a nanny state and and they can be both peculiar and particular in their demands. People also tend to be less friendly than other parts of the the US, so you need to put on your charm hat and hope to find someone willing to take some time with you.

As a general rule of thumb, your wall should be built using 2 by 4s with the vertical studs 16" center to center. You will need to lay down what is called a plate (another 2 by 4 laid horizontally) and a header at the top and bottom of the wall. You may actually be better off using 2 by 6s instead of 2 by 4s if extra insulation is required. More expensive, but the wall will provide less heat loss and save money in fuel costs. That's up to the home owner.

The bottom plate will sit on the concrete. There is a black tar-like material that should be laid under the 2 by 4 as a moisture barrier. I the stuff I have seen is almost 1/2" thick and it is as wide as the lumber. New Jersey probably has an approved material for their code. Check with the lumber supply store for the correct material.

The plate can be attached to the floor with either concrete nails or concrete screws. Screws may be easier. Treated lumber may be required for that bottom plate. Check code.

The top header is nailed up using conventional steel nails.

The vertical studs should be cut about 1/8" longer than the measured distance and banged into place, then toe-nailed as per code one at a time. You may be required to place two studs side-by-side at either end of the garage door opening. Check code.

On the exterior you can nail 4' by 8' oriented strand board (or whatever is required by code) over the 2 by 4s. Then staple sheets of Tyvex as a weather barrier. Then you can apply the outside siding as desired.

Inside the wall should be stuffed with fiberglass insulation with the paper side facing inside. Finish with 4' by 8' 1/2" drywall. keep the drywall at least 1/2" off of the concrete floor!

City code may have a number of other requirements (or variations from what I just told you), so be prepared to go through a couple of iterations to get your plan approved. You can get copies of the code and try to read it first.

Inspectors will probably need to inspect your work at specific stages of the project before you can proceed to the next phase so that they can be sure of compliance.

In the end your head will spin with all the details you must do. Just look how much writing I had to do just to give you a basic outline of the task. Welcome to the USA and anal New Jersey.

Incidentally, not every state and their people are like that.

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