High Water Consumption?

You likely have a punctured pipe. I'm guessing your plumbing runs under the slab and has been punctured by a rock?

This happened at my house. Mine was under the water heater, which is not inside the living area. The leak was caused by a migrating rock and thermal expansion and contraction may have aggravated this, because when the hot water wasn't running the pipe cooled off.

You may have a separated joint or pipe too.

WE never saw any water.

CALL A PLUMBER. I did.

Good luck.

Are you saying that you have the hot water pipes in the slab?

That sound like a waste of energy! Concrete conducts heat much better than air and has a high thermal mass.

I have a difficult time believing that it is allowed.

Regards.

Start looking for ways to run your water line in a more accessible manner...Like up the side of the house and through the attic, dropping down in a closet or behind the bathroom wall, maybe even a few drops....There is generally a 1ft wide space for the plumbing next to a bathroom...If you can find a set of original plans, that might help...I wouldn't waste any time scheduling the repair, they might shut your water off until it's fixed...

Welcome to CR4. Your investigation and confirmation of the flow with nothing turned on is the first step and verifies the leak.

It is highly possible for a leak to be "invisible" especially on sandy or well drained soil types. (We've found one leak that was over 2000 gallons per day underneath a building on sand that was unknown to the owner.)

You might be able to pinpoint the leak by "listening" with everything quiet around. A leak of that quantity will make a sound where it exits the pipe, but underneath a slab the sound can travel and appear to be some distace from the actual location.

Your plumber might have access to "correlators" that can be attached to the pipe and measure where the leak is. (We use these to detect leaks smaller than yours on pipes that are 24" diameter feeding whole towns and they are usually accurate to 1 foot in a pipe 300 feet between measuring points. You need to be right when you are digging a 30foot deep hole in a four lane expressway.)

If the pipe is coroded through, then it's likely that you have other marginal pipe and I'd suggest finding a complete alternate from the meter to an above ground connection inside the house.

You mention "drought" and that may have caused ground shrinkage that has pulled a pipe connection apart. Still difficult to repair if it's under a slab, and no guarantee that it's the only one.

Do you have a "green" patch in the yard, or some lawn that's unusually better than the rest of the street? Or is there water seeping into the street anywhere near? You might be lucky and have a break that's not under the house that's draining through the subsoil.

Good luck and keep us informed.

It sounds as though there is an opening in the pipe downstream of the meter.

If the leak hasn't reached the surface, then it doesn't matter, as it needs to be dealt with and fast, partly for the economics of water use and partly as the leak has the potential to erode the foundations of anything with which it comes into contact; it wouldn't be the first time that the corner of a building has fallen off because of an un-stopped leak, for instance. Do the utmost to locate the fault, even by trial hand-dig if possible, and get it fixed. Do it straight away.

From what you have described so far it appears that you have a leak, most likely under the floor slab, or if any of the water pipes pass through the foundation walls (to an outside hose spigot). It is entirely possible you wouldn't see an water if your house rests on sandy or granular soils, because the water with percolate down through the soil mass.

772 gpd water usage definitely indicates a leak. The Average Daily Flow (consumption) of water in the USA for residential customers typically can range from 100 gpd to 250 gpd, depending on the number of people present per dwelling and type of residential dwelling, so your consumption value is much much higher then typical usage. That is, unless the water meter is malfunctioning. That is a distinct possibility. It also appears that the main shutoff valve is leaking and needs replacement; there should be any increase in the meter reading when the shutoff valve is tightly closed.

Since your house is about 62 years old, it's entirely possible that your water pipes in contact with the soil (under the slab) may have corroded sufficiently to start leaking. Or the pipes may have burst last winter or early spring due to sub-freezing temps. This can happen (corrosion) with copper or steel pipe, especially if the soil is acidic. Ask the water dept. personnel if they experience high rates of pipe failure due to corrosive soils, especially on their water service laterals. Please keep in mind that most municipal water dept's. and privately-owned water companies are responsible for water service lateral repairs within the street right-of-way only. If the leak happens to occur on your property or in your house most likely you will have to pay for the pipe repairs.

What type of water pipe is present inside your house?

What type of water service lateral pipe type enters your house (from the foundation wall to the water meter)?

How old are the pipes? Were they from when the house was built?

Any idea when the water meter was install? There may be an installation tag wired to the meter which would indicate when it was installed or last inspected.

Keep in mind that many many older water meters have been found to be very inaccurate per an AWWA study conducted several years ago.....many of them over read the water consumption, hence customers were typically overcharges, sometimes considerably. If the Water Dept. finds that the meter is okay, politely ask them to perform a flow test to confirm it's accuracy.

Please let us know how you made out with the Water Dept. visit.

I fear you may have to hire a licensed plumber. If you do, get at least 3 estimates. also, have someone with a good plumbing knowledge present with you so you do not get taken. Do not trust everything someone says about leaks and extensive repairs that add up to big bucks. IMO, plumbers and other Contractors love to scam people, especially single women, because they lack the necessary knowledge about plumbing work. When all else fails, verify verify verify!

===signed,

CaptMoosie, Ph.D, PE (New York State)

Civil, Structural, Environmental & Forensic Engineer

The meter will only record the volume that passes through it to locations downstream; if there is a leak upstream, it is the utility company's problem (UK practice), not the householder's, as it wouldn't have registered on the meter and no charge could be made. If the utility company investigates and the problem is found downstream of the stop-cock and meter, a charge will be made for the call-out.

The tests so far suggest the leak is the householder-side of the meter.

In the UK, drawings of the house would form part of the Planning Aplication and Building Regulations procedure the last time it was built/modified, so a copy would be lodged with the local authority's Planning Office. In practice, these drawings only show the "general arrangement" of the route, and won't be a huge amount of use on detail like this. Trial digging and a bit of "nonce" are the usual tools to find leaking pipes.

Do report back when the leak has been found.

Typo on my part Kathleen. Sorry about that!

If the shutoff valve is closed entirely (and not leaking water by), then you should NOT see an increase of any type on your meter.

The water meter is located at the exterior in front of your house? Is it mounted to the side of the house? Is the main shutoff located there as well? If so, that is particularly odd, as both would be prone to freezing.

With a house that old, I doubt it very much if any blueprint exists of it, unless you're in a large city.....then it may be located in the City Engineer's or Building Dept. archives.

If the source of the leak is beneath something practically immovable, such as a concrete slab or part of the building foundations, consider re-running the pipe along another route and abandoning the leaking section.

Make sure that all work is carried out to the latest local standards using type-approved materials and practices; engage a Registered Plumber to carry out the work, and ensure that a paper-trail exists so that, in the event of a recurrence that causes non-excess damage against the policy, the insurance company has a trail it can pursue to recover the insured costs to it in accordance with the policy.

Just a thought. Does your furnace have a humidifier attachment. Some of the old ones used a woven material in a drum that set in a sump of water and turned. The sump had a level valve. It could be bad or just stuck. The sump usually had a over flow line into the sanitary waste water. This may be why you see no water and are hearing it in the furnace vents.

Unusual to run the furnace vents under the slab of a home.

The meter is in the front yard, flush with the grass, has a blue cover on it labeled WATER, I think that is pretty standard. So the pipes must be under the grass into the house, as the main shut off is in my house. Then several pipes seperate from the main and go to other parts of the house.

The furnace does have a humidifier attachement that I have always left in the off position. It is just a 2 foot by 1 foot box that is attached to the side of the furnace. Good point that vents wouldn't be under the home, I think that is correct. So not sure why I would hear the echo in the vent only. Maybe it is something bad with the A/C or furnace? I did notice their is a water pipe into the A/C, but I hear no noise near the A/C. I will have my inspectors check that out! Thanks

Water pipe to AC maybe the condensate drain.

When you get your pipes upgraded, make sure a check is installed, near the meter. It's code, anyway.

Water meters usually only read one way.

If the city water pressure is fluctuating, pressure can take water through your meter into your hot water tank and your lines, even though you are not using water. When the pressure drops, this water goes back into the city system if there is no check. The meter doesn't read this return.

Over time, a lot of water can 'bounce' in and out of your house.

I had that problem in a hot water line under a slab. I was able to feel the heat radiating through the concrete, pinpointing the location of the leak. After digging up the slab and finding the leak, the damage was to extensive to repair withoug digging up more slab, so I patched the hole and ran new pipes through the attic tieing in at the various plumbing fixtures. The problem was, whan the house was built, the workers threw old galvanized nails into the site that ended up under the slab. These nails were in contact with the copper pipe and galvanic corrosion ate through the pipe.

Corroborative anecdote, but not under a slab. I have a 43 year old Townhouse in Northern Virginia (USA). A plumber, when building the house, nailed a pipe strap to a fireblock in an upstairs wall. The nail nicked the pipe, but only enough to dent it. It took 40+ years to develop a SMALL leak (dripping sound in the wall, particularly when the adjacent pipe, carrying hot water, was running, or had just been shut off. Probably changed each time due to parasitic thermal expansion.

Galvanic corrosion can be VERY slow and insidious.

Come to think of it, the earlier notes about migratory chunks under the slab can also be testified to. My neighbor, two doors up, just last week experienced floor drain flooding in her house. Inspection found that the main line to the street (Yes, sewage. Ugly.) about 5 feet out from her front wall (So, on her property. Happily, she, and we, were part of an earlier program to establish a trust to cover just such problems) had been separated by a migratory rock, about 3 feet in diameter, that was buried in her yard, about 12 feet down, right on top of a jink in the pipe that had been designed to go AROUND the rock. We don't know what moved, but we know the result.

But I think I'd look first at the possibility that your humidifier is leaking into the vents, and out through some very lowlying junction, just because of the noise IN the vent. I can't see a leak under the slab causing that, without listening personally to the sound. The tone of the leak will give a lot away, as, if it is actually flowing IN the vent, the sound will carry more high-frequency overtones than if it is flowing UNDER the slab, and the sound is merely being conducted through the slab.

But the inspectors and plumbers should be able to find that.

It does sound like a leak. One of the drawbacks of a slab. However, if you have a softener or filter that requires back washing on occasion you should check these units. You can even put them in bypass if that is possible. It is easy to check for problems and at least would be repairable. Good luck.

Hi Kathleen,

Welcome to CR4. I have to agree you have a leak. If you knew Del or Kris, you could have one of them crawl through your vent. You could try a camera or mirror on a stick. Likely you will need to run a new main line above the slab. Good luck.

-S

Flow meters not meant work indefinitely. The gears inside must have chipped off or some dirt has clogged something. The water company should replace it or if possible arrange to get a new meter installed in parallel to put up your case.

you mean new meter in series I am sure.

No new meter in series wont prove old meter wrong reading. In parallel as by pass. close valve inlet outlet of old meter and operate via new meter. check reading 4 days and take out average/day. This will then prove if old meter has gone cocky and needs replacement. Say sub-meter . by pass to this then call the Company to check and confirm.

We currently own 4 rentals and the house we live in. I do the repair/maintenance work myself and I'm very familiar with plumbing (three of the rentals were built from 1959-61). Luckily for us, the pipes in the slab have been good. Our houses are here in California and when they built the house, they laid the pipes (thick wall copper), then poured the slab (pipes embedded in the slab). If the pipes go, I will have to cut the slab (not something I'm looking forward to) to repair the pipe, or lay new pipe.

I think you should verify where the leak is, before doing anything. You may get lucky and be able to repair the pipe. If the pipe is galvanized, I recommend starting from scratch and laying new pipe. Your choices will be copper (thin or thick wall) or PEX. PEX is a plastic pipe with press fit fittings. Since PEX does not require soldering, you may want to consider it. You'll need to run the pipes through the attic and down the wall, which means cutting holes in your drywall, so you can access the pipes. If you cut the drywall at the stud (right in the middle of the stud), you can screw it back in and tape and mud the repair. You'll also need to get to the shower, tub, toilet and faucet lines. This is the challenging part, because you'll need to remove the toilets, sink vanities and find a way to access the shower and tub valves (sometimes they are back to back, which is a blessing).

You can run PEX yourself, which will save quite a bit of labor costs. If you're good with a torch, you can try to run copper (only need a propane torch). My recommendation is to run thick wall copper, since it will last a lot longer and the price difference isn't substantial (the labor cost to re-do it later is pricey).

I hope this helps. Let us know where the leak is and what you did to fix it.

Greg

I'm intrigued by this "air return vent" at the bottom of the external wall.

What is it actually ventilating?

The house was supposed to have a crawl space but none could be found...could it be that your slab is actually suspended above a void and the vent is the subfloor vent and you can hear water pouring into the crawl space from that leak?

Had a similar problem in one of my rental properties. The copper pipes are laid in the concrete slab. In theory they should have a wrap round them but often missing. As the pipe goes hot/cold it moves slightly and rubs through the abrasive concrete. After a while the pipe goes porous.

We found the cheapest way round it was to abandon the copper in the slab and repipe on the surface. With the new pipes installed we boxed them in with wood. Once painted you don't don't know they are there.

We investigated one leak just find another one as well. Don't chase the copper it will be expensive. Cutting the slab is madness.

I agree 100%, don't try to fix a break in the slab. It will be both costly and frustrating. I like your idea about re-piping on the surface and covering with a wood box. Clever and much less hassle.

Back to basics. I've never seen a water meter record usage without water flowing through it. Chances of that happening are slim to none. I suggest you have a professional locate the leak. If you have other shutoff valves, you may be able to isolate the leak to one part of the plumbing. In either case, find the leak and then get quotations for repair and/or come back to this web site for more specific suggestions.

Use acoustics on the pipe and the slab to tell you if it is running there, all escaping water generates sound, a single rod to your ear, or a microphone from a camera or a set of phone buds will do it and the noise level will help you locate it to within a smaller area .. Hope this helps

Wal - it is the return air vent for air conditioning/heat. It is at the base of the wall, where the wall meets the floor. When I take the grate off there is about a foot of space below my floor and the outdoor ground. Now that you mention it, that is interesting that it goes down that far, maybe there is some sort of crawlspace, I will look into it, thanks!

Merc- Could you please explain further. I should run the camer microphone against the floor to pin point the location?

It is about time to renew the all steel tubing.... better do it with plastic interchangeable system, than metal pipes -see the SP System

(invented by Germans) -decades ago...

Hey Kathleen. Here is a url that shows the equipment used to find leaks. Some plumber or leak detection service is probably in your neighborhood. Please remember that this is just an example. If you Google leak detection services you will probably find someone to locate your leak. Then you can pay someone to fix it. The person that traces the leak will be able to tell you who can fix the problem.

http://www.lambertlocations.com.au/leak-detection

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A hand without an arm is a useless tool.

If the water department is well equipped they will have the proper electronic equipment or hydrophones to locate the leak.

Even if they don't have such equipment, they can do it the old fashion way of using a large screwdriver, with the pointy end placed on the pipe, and the end of the handle placed against the ear. When I was a City Engineer I had an old water dept. foreman show me this trick....it actually works! The use of the screwdriver picks up the acoustical signature of the sound running water makes and amplifies it, but it must be metal-to-metal contact for it to work; placing the screwdriver end to concrete sort of deadens the acoustic pickup abilities.

The water authority techs here carry one of these passive devices with them that does what the screw driver (or coat hanger) trick does a little better. Also passive...

Sometimes it helps to know where the pipes are first. I use divining rods for this.

This technique was taught to me when I was very young by my father . It works. I don't know why but it does.

Yes, I have seen divining rods in action as well......and they DO work a majority of the time in the hands of an old pro. Beats me why, but they do work, regardless of what must Civil Engineers say about them!

I had an ex that was a plumbing apprentice and he was so excited when they taught them about those rods, just thought they were the coolest thing, but I think from listening we can get a pretty good idea where the leak is. The water department came and said the leak is on my side (as I expected) and he put a 4 ft. rod around the house where the leak is and there was no water, so it must just be going straight down in the dirt.

On a better note, I had Plumber 1 come and he thinks that he can cut into the concrete/brick around the outside spigot and hopefully work on the pipe under the house from there. This will be wonderful if this works and if that is the correct location, although I suspect it is. Plumber 2 is coming later today, so I will let all know what he says.

It is like I said, hire someone with a listening device and the leak will be found. Now that wasn't a job for an engineer, was it. Complex problems often have simple answers.

Wooo hooo! Plumber 2 cut in through the side of the house, around the outdoor spigot. The leak was about 3 ft. from the outside of the house, under the slab, so they were able to replace the pipe from the outside and took about an hour, then patched the hole back up. Sounds like the drought probably contracted my slab and broke the pipe and that all the water was going straight into the ground and that is why I never saw water. Much easier fix than all of us though! Thanks for everyone's suggestions and help!

That's great to hear.

That's how they repaired mine, too. That was 10 years ago.

Everybody, keep their fingers crossed for both of us.

Cheers.

Sweet!!

You gotta get lucky sometimes.

Bingo!

Thank you Kathleen for letting us know where the leak was and that it is finally repaired! It's very welcome news that it didn't involve ripping up the concrete slab! I sure hope it didn't cost you an arm & a leg....

Now, you can sit down and relax for a well deserved spell!

there's a new method of re-lining pipe down to 1/2'. it involves blowing a resin saturated fiberglass? tube though the water line.

you might be able to find the source of the leak with a mechanics stethoscope.