Why don't you put the pump at the head of the well and use a foot valve?

I've never used submersible pumps since I left the farm 50 years ago, so I'll not be any help there.

Good luck.

That gets a bit more complicated once you pass the 28 foot mark. Think about it for a moment.

As TMTech comments, the wells are generally too deep for jet pumps- and over the years, I have had issue with the venturi on the jet pumps- they wear out faster than submersible pumps due to abrasive suspended solids in the water. Up until recently, I have had very, very good results with submersible pumps....

i've made the same mistake by using franklin pumps. i've been using meyer pumps for some time. they're dependable and have a great warrenty.

Thanks DurtieDuck- this is a brand with which I have not been familiar. They don't seem to have a Latin American distributor, but maybe I could work with someone out of Florida. It would be much better to have a local distributor, though, because people generally are not happy waiting a couple of weeks for water when a well stops working...

Grundfoss.

More cost, more reliable.

Grundfoss is a viable option, but I would rather find something that is locally available, as noted in elsewhere in the thread.

Have you tried a Global Spec search?)

bob c- Global spec search gives me a whole lot of pump manufacturers that use Franklin motors. I haven't figured out how to add a filter "not Franklin" to the search criteria. Same with Google- how do you tell Google you are not interested in 10 pages of Chinese products?

Thanks for the reply, and the information. I hope the people that have provided this forum for us will read it also, and provide a method.

ITT Goulds Pumps are an industry leader.....

http://www.gouldspumps.com/Home/

Capt- I was hoping to hear from you on this one. Do you know where Gould sources their motors? A lot of these pump companies just bolt their pumps onto Franklin motors, which used to be an acceptable practice. The two recent motor failures I have experienced, the Franklin motors were built in Mexico. One of the failures appears to have been caused by thermal overload, although the Franklin motors are supposedly internally thermally protected, and I install additional protective systems on the surface (current and voltage controllers). I am especially frustrated by the fact that my normal supplier will not honor the warranties.

Most of my wells are installed in remote locations, hard to get to, and, of course, one has no equipment on these remote sites to pull the pump, except a bunch of manual laborers who generally don't understand what it is we are trying to do. Needless to say, reliability is far more important than price, but I also have an issue with logistics- waiting three months for a pump to be delivered to Panama is generally not a viable option.

Hey cwarner, howzit going?

Goulds use to build their own motors, then they outsource them to I believe from General Electric. Since ITT bought them out back in '97 things changed drastically. Of course they changed their entire website recently, and it's useless at teets on a bull. I cannot find squat on that site regarding the submersible pump motors now! That wasn't the case a few years ago.

So, you're guess is as good as mine as to supplies their well pump motors.

You may want to call their tech support line and inquire about the motors. They are located in Seneca NY (near Rochester). Sorry, their website is so difficult navigate now (actually screw-up badly) to find anything....and what you do find is NOT useful for an engineer, let alone finding a damn telephone number for contacting the techs and engineers. JUST MADDENING!!!!

You may have to call directory assistance.....

Well, if this a trend with them since the ITT buyout, then it doesn't sound like they're at the top of their game like they use to be. Longing for the GOOD OLD DAYS!

Not understanding how the International Telegraph and Telephone Corporation would be interested in water pumps, I did a bit of research, and discovered that ITT hasn't been in telecommunications for many, many years...On top of that, they just split up, and their water pumps are now Xylem Brands, which includes Gould and Red Jacket (and a whole bunch of other specialty pump lines). The ITT, Xylem, Red Jacket and Gould web sites are all equally difficult to navigate, but I was able to find some pertinent literature downloads- although I haven't found anything so far indicating where they source their motors.

What I have found are local distributors for Gould and Red Jacket, which means I can go to their shops and hopefully get some information about which motors they are using...

ITT are more involved with Petrochemical than water pumps. Either way, don't get too concerned with any ITT corporate policies regarding motor sourcing. Unlike most other corporations that have stuck their oars into the pump market, ITT have always left the original company name intact, and have left the experts with market experience to do their own thing regarding component sourcing, marketing, etc. I am not now, nor ever have been, connected with ITT, but I think their approach is quite admirable.

Goulds does use Franklin and has for some time. If you are experiencing frequent failure there is likely a cause outside of manufacturing. You may even want to talk to Franklin through their hotline (sorry haven't the number off hand). A handbook can be found here. Just an engineer gave a GA suggested a problem with power and line voltage. Franklin motor generally have a tolerance of plus or minus 10% line voltage beyond rating. I have ran a company that literally installed thousands over many years. Lightning is a problem in some areas. These pumps all have internal lightning arrestors but they may only function for one lightning strike and then fail on any subsequent strike. If you add an external lightning arrestor (arrester or surge protector) use a selection guide. Even these external ones will fail eventually if there are many lightning strikes.

I have installed pumps like Grundfos and many variable speed pumps. They all have good points as well as some problems. You are correct to want a local supplier so you can have ease of repairs.

Are you using three wire or two wire pumps? Three wire will give a higher start capability and offer ease of changing electrical capacitors or even control boxes. It was always my preference since the repair was much easier even if the wire was more expensive. Check the guide I referred, and check with Franklin. It may be a simple install problem like banging the bottom of the motor on the ground hard. I have no interest in Franklin but few complaints. I have sold my business 4 years ago, but not aware of any recent changes. They are reliable motors and have a good track record. Some of these motors have been in continuous use for 50 years.

I agree wholeheartedly. It was not my intention to suggest the 10 % was a norm but rather a max peak that the manufacturer recommended and then only briefly. I found some rural power grids were actually run at higher voltage when the transformer station was far away. I was suspicious they do this to compensate for losses on the line but they really deny they do it. However, I have measured very high voltages and pump failure in very short periods of time under these line conditions. The pump tech device installed should have tripped but did not. A pump tech 'plus" device would allow less tolerance but is not usually installed on small hp pumps of 1.5 hp or less. A thermal overload would be the first thing to go but the control box with capacitor start would also be subject to failure. The same thing happens with gen run pumps and one must monitor the frequency and the line voltage. CWarner indicated pumptecs were installed and that is normally enough protection for overload or underload conditions. CW may also want to monitor line voltage on his rural installs. You, JAE, have some "good" experience and thanks for your response. With respect.

Kevin-

I have had good performance from Franklin motors for years- it is only recently they have let me down, and the distributor won't honor the warranty...

These are 3-wire (actually 4 wire, because I run a ground all the way to the surface). 220 V, capacitor start (capacitor located in control box on the surface). In addition to the advertised internal thermal protection, I always install a Franklin "PumpTec", which supposedly protects against over current, no water, blocked discharge, and voltage variation. I know the PumpTec definitely shuts the pump down if voltage is out of spec, as expected. Lightning does not appear to be an issue in this case (although I can not rule it out completely- I have had lightning strikes at other locations that leave absolutely no evidence of the strike, except melted transformer coils (and a report of very loud thunder).

Ahahahahaha finally!

I found out that there is a ITT Goulds Pumps Distributor in Panama:

F. Icaza y Cia., S.A.
Avenida S. Bolívar - Transítsmica, Apartado 55-0877 - Paitilla
Panamá 1, Panama
Website: www.ficaza.com
Telephone: 011507-229-3377
FAX: 011507-229-3128

teresita_quijano@ficaza.com

Thanks, Capt- I found that also...

I really appreciate your help.

No problem C. I sure hope you can get some info out of the Goulds Pumps distributor down there!

With any luck they don't use Franklin Electric motors.

Good luck, and please let us know how you made out talking to them. I would like to know myself on a professional level, because you never know when a person will walk through the door saying he/she has a dead well pump!

Did you send the damaged motors to manufacturers for evaluation,how many years of warranty those motors carry?. What is the cooling method(water/oil) of motors,what kind of lubrication is provided to the bearings?. Did the overcurrent/over temperature relay operate,were the settings correct?.

These motors are standard, sealed motors designed for down-hole (submerged) operation, and advertised as having internal thermal overload protection. Franklin is rather ubiquitous in this market segment, and over the last 15 years or so, with something on the order of 30 well completions, this is the first ever I have had a motor failure- suddenly, I have two fail in short order. Suggesting that something has changed in their manufacturing process. They are completely welded shut, with internal lubrication. They were installed with additional "PumpTec" devices which prevent under-and over-voltage operation, and supposedly shut the pump down when current flow is out of spec. One of the motors (with frozen rotor) has been returned to the supplier for an autopsy, and the report I got was that it died as a result of over-heating (causing the rotor to expand and locking against the stator). Which means, whatever thermal protection or overload protection (provided with the motor) did not work, and the supplier would not honor the one year warranty (the pump had been in operation for about six months). Returning the motor to the manufacturer is not an option in this case, due to the logistics involved. Most of the wells I do are located in remote areas that are very difficult to access- in one case (not this one), a trip to the site requires a one hour flight (charter- no commercial service), a half hour by bus, a ride around a point in open ocean (usually in an open motor boat- i have been stuck on occasion waiting for the seas to lay down so the boat can make the crossing), then a two-hour horseback ride. I need reliable equipment, and it appears that Franklin is no longer delivering reliable equipment.

I don't yet have an analysis of the second failure (same supplier). Easier to get to, but still not a situation where I can wait a month or more for the manufacturer to decide whether they are going to honor the warranty. I need something that WORKS as advertised.

Some pump control panels include a thermistor-in winding-operated relay which will trip the pump if high temperature is detected.

A motor can burn due to many reasons.Do you have a dry-running protection if water level drops below pump intake level,do you check water levels,occasionally,before and after pumping. Did you send water analysis report to manufacturer to ascertain whether their motor/pump is suitable for that type of water and temperature?. Is there a mesh near the intake to filter out particles?.

pnaban-

1. The Franklin "PumpTec" protection system that I install on all my down-hole pumps shuts the pump down on low water (I know it works because I have had a couple of wells that can't keep up with the pumping rate).

2. Water analysis is done on every new well, and about once a year after installation- water quality can change significantly from month to month- but mostly brackish-to-fresh water. No, I don't send the reports tot the manufacturers, because I deal with distributors. I am not in a position to deal directly with manufacturers, quite frankly (distance, low volume, etc.). Based on manufacturers' literature, there is generally no compatibility problem with the water we are pumping.

3. Yes, the mesh at the pump intake is installed per manufacturer's instructions. The problem is not with the pump. It is the motor, which was sold as having internal thermal protection, that apparently did not do it's job.

Just some observations from the side.

We recently had some motors fail on very reliable brand submersible pumps and everntual diagnosis was that the protection deveices were not adaptable to operation with variable frequency.

In your remote location what is the relaibility of your power source??

We found that operating pumps at higher frequency and produced heating with current inside normal range. The motors were "steaming" when removed from the wells and still too hot to handle when back at the workshop an hour later.

It seems that many pump manufacturers have learned to "build down" to specification as a means to reduce cost. (In reality we were getting more than the nameplate nominated in the past.)

We have had to review pump operaitng situations for more that 220 sets of pumps as a result of this discovery. (Note that the same was verified on another manufacturer's items and thus is not isolated to one brand.)

Good point, Just an Engineer, about frequency, but not the case in this situation. The particular Island I am working on has a fairly good frequency control (60 +/- 0.5 Hz) every time I have measured it. Other locations, I see as much as 2-3 Hz variation, but don't have any problems with motors at those locations...

There are many reputed submersible pump mfrs. here in India. They have good performance records. But for you too far away.

Yours is not the only application that I have heard of having issues after a manufacture made a change in locations for assembly. I don't want to through stones at anyone country or company, but I think there is an issue with distances. Distances from the engineering; distances form the people who know how to make a product (been doing it for so many years); Distances from languages and understanding true meanings.

In other words, we don't do a very good job when deciding to send our manufacturing out to other areas. Cost savings are not the only issue to be looked at! One persons opinion speaking out on a site such as this or others. Can hurt more then any savings seen in moving offshore.

Just my observations.

Hope you can find a resolution for the issues your having with these motors.

if you are going the ITT route why not use a flygt pump that is usually the wastewater and submersible line that is popular. maintenance is easy because some pumps offer a unitized cartridge seal design. they are pricey but usually very reliable. and i think the motors are developed by them and very tested. im in the engineered sealing industry and we offer a line of their seals and i know they they are very popular. i know when our reps have reached out to latin american markets they come up here and there so they have to be available. ITT/ xylem is a huge global mega corporation i think they are most likely the largest and most accessable other then Grundfos. there are so many other pumps out there also. im pretty sure baldor, hayward, hyundai,GE, Siemens all make good motors. i dont deal much on that side just primarily the wet end of the pump but i know those are the most popular.

look into ebara, grundfos, Wilo, ABS, Liberty, smith & loveless, KSB,Fairbanks (pentair) also

A Flygt submersible wastewater pump may not be suitable for several reasons:

(1). The pump's size, ie largest diameter or width dimension, will most likely exceed the inside diameter of the well casing, unless it is an abnormally large well case which is rarely the case.

(2). The depth of the well may be very deep, and hence the Total Dynamic Head of the system may be in excess of most wastewater submersible pumps capabilities. Oh sure you can overcome this by providing a larger motor and impeller, but the electrical demand and cost will increase dramatically as well. Submersible well pumps are much more efficient because they feature several in-series impellers.

(3). In most instances wastewater submersible pumps are much heavier than a vertical submersible well pumps when comparing equivalent discharge rates. From a maintenance standpoint hauling-up or lowering a wastewater submersible pump would be a logistic nightmare.

Good Morning,

try DISFFLO PUMP/GERBER PUMP. Discflo is out of Florida but Bert Gerber is their Rep. in South Florida. Or a Pump from MWI in Deerfield Beach, FL.

I clean Crude Oil Tanks up to 750,000 bls and placed an order with Bert Gerber in April this year unfortunately time was an isue and the delivery time would not work for me so I purchase a CT 004 Prime Rite from MWI over the Sub Pump that they have....retrospect, the sub pump would have been better served for our application however it was to heavy to enter a confined space with 3' of sludge.

I plan to purchase a Discfo Pump form Bert in the next couple of months....I saw theri product and its a great pump(s).

Best wishes.

Elvis

I wonder if the capacitor used for starting is perhaps causing an excessive resonant current in light running?

Interesting concept, but one would think, since the motor manufacturer selected and provided the capacitor, that this would have been anticipated. I don't believe the motor was running under light load, however- measured volume at measured head was smack in the middle of the pump curve...

For those interested, the second motor was not actually a failure. It turns out that, due to a significantly dry rainy season, the level in the well had dropped significantly, which was discovered when we pulled the pump for inspection. Although the pump was still well below the water level, when we first installed it, we did a "field calibration" of the PumpTec protector. As the level in the well dropped, it ultimately reached the point where the PumpTec detected "unusual" current for this installation, and would shut the pump down. Re-calibrating the PumpTec at the new water level resolved the issue for the time being (but the owner is none too happy about the lower water level in the well!). In this second case, it appears that all of the protective systems worked as designed, and protected the motor...

Thanks for the update CW. Is it possible that there is still enough water to be pumped from the well? With the water level dropping the pumptec would sense an amp drop and trip to shut off motor. Would a bigger pump end with more impellers be a solution without changing motor? I am not sure if the load with the new impellers would not trip the pumptec anyway. It would pump less water with more impellers but it will deliver a higher head. If a bigger volume is required a new pump should be selected. Just musing.

As an aside, I recently talked to the people running the company I once owned and they are experiencing the same issues after a dry summer. They also note that in many wells where upper zone water has dried up, water quality has taken a nose dive. Much higher conductivities, sulfur, iron, hardness. Good for the treatment industry though. Perhaps large storage is an answer to some issues.

Fortunately, this last well still has enough water to pump, but I did not have the time to evaluate the current recharge rate- ran for about 3 hours without losing suction. In this case, trying to suck more water out faster would just run the well dry faster. Better limit production. We are having a dry year in that area- I expect after a good wet year, it should go back to normal- but there is never any guarantee for that...

Yes, water quality degrades significantly when the water level gets too low- and, this being an Island, during the dry season, we can see sea water ingress into the aquifer. For this particular installation, the well water is processed via RO. Last year, I had to add additional pretreatment between the well and the RO system because iron content in the water increased significantly, and was really shortening the life of the membranes. This particular Island has been over-developed, and there is no control over how many wells are drilled- which is deadly for a small aquifer. I only service older wells here- I refuse to get involved with new completions on the Island.

I had another case, about 5-6 years ago, on the mainland, where suddenly the water level was not recovering with the rainy season- we had several years of level readings, and tracked the seasonal rise and fall. We had no idea what caused the decline in the recharge of the aquifer, until we did a fly-over of the area, and discovered someone had installed a hydroelectric facility about 5 km from our site. The damming of the reservoir on the surface wound up having a significant impact on the shallow water aquifer we were tapping- to the extent that we had to finally abandon two wells and restrict production so as to try to squeeze a few more years useful life out of the aquifer.

This is in a country with 120-400 inches of rain per year...Lack of proper water management is creating a significant future crisis, but the government doesn't see any profit in worrying about the future...

So lots of water but poor management. My background is physical geography and water resource engineering so the topic is somewhat up my alley. When I mentioned storage as perhaps an answer I was thinking of a management system. I remember getting a rural subdivision approved based on the pumping of water from wells to large storage tanks of about 2000 gallon capacity. Once the water had filled the reservoir, we would then re-pump it into the domestic pressure systems. The wells (no well put out more than 1 gpm) were actually pumped 24/7 and included periods of low demand. Each well system was equipped with a pumptec (set for 30 minutes of off time once tripped) controlling the well and a reverse float in the reservoir controlling the level in the reservoir. The reverse float was electrically connected to the well pump and would turn off or on as the levels demanded. The subdivision supported nearly 500 homes and with the reservoirs none interfered with each other during peak water demands. Still works after nearly 20 years. Very minimal problems over a long period.

Thinking of your island, if you could somehow convince the people in power enact some sort of management of the groundwater, reservoirs may help the overall situation. It may even be possible to pump from shallower depths and leave the deep high conductivity water behind. With the amount of rainfall indicated, it seems that the collecting of enough fresh water is possible. Larger storage to offset the dry periods may also be required. I think you can have good quality water in abundance and support many operations. These systems cost money but they also save money by lowering treatment costs and long term preservation of the groundwater. Drawing salt water into a fresh water aquifer is a good way to ruin any future development. IMO.

kevinm-

My personal approach is to try to convince people on the Island that they are better off catching and storing rain water rather than trying to rely on wells. The issue is that most of those with the money are totally oblivious to water issues, and think in terms of green grass all year round being more important than drinking water for the masses. They have swimming pools, jacuzzis, water fountains, etc.- and when the grass goes brown, they fly off to one of their other resorts and to h*** with the poor folk who have to have water shipped in from the mainland. The local water "authority" has finally stopped most of these people from randomly sinking private wells on the island, but that's like locking the barn door after the horses have been stolen. also, they generally do not have sufficient funds and other resources to maintain the infrastructure properly.

Where I am successful with my campaign, we are generally looking at a 30,000 to 50,000 storage cistern (which can actually fill in less than two weeks, when the rain comes), split into two basins. To keep the water fresh, I circulate it between the two basins and inject ozone. Now, I have an occasional issue where the resident caretaker will sell the stored water to other residents when the owner is away...

A very tricky situation- and more like the Wild West than what you civilized folk are used to...

I know this is an older...... posting.

Regardless I wanted to share my 38 yrs experience in handling electric submersible pumps and motors from 1/3 hp to 2500 HP. If your having a high number of failures in one localized area, such as rural districts. Chances are very good it is a Power supply problem more than Motor Manufactures issue. I recommend installing on each system, at the power supply Before the pump control panel / Box, a T.V.S.S, ( Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor) and a Sim com Pump / Motor Saver.

I have do this in many problem areas through the years from Home water wells to Offshore Drilling and Production Oil Rigs with great success.

Just something to think about.

Good Luck

BGuillot

Thanks, BGuillot. The pumps are installed with surge suppressors (provided by Franklin) that also provide sag protection and over-current protection (according to their claims). Additionally, I have several of the same pumps (although much older) installed on the same grid segment. Older pumps don't fail. Newer pumps fail.

I have found that on the Franklin single phase systems their surge suppressors only cover one phase leaving the other unprotected. The same is true on their older three phase systems "Subtrol" they only cover two phases.

Clean up the incoming power with a TVSS will help greatly. To find out if the power is the problem you can request the utility company to install a monitoring chart recorder for a set period of time. This will show if you have good current.

And yes the older franklin motors were built better, I suspect more copper in the windings. But lets face it the 4" submersible motor market is cut throat. Margins around 5 to 8% for manufactures. That market depends on high turn overs.

The only other suggestion I have is to "De-rate a Larger Motor". Move up to the next size motor on the same pump end. Such as a 3/4Hp Motor on a 1/2 HP Pump end. The motor will only pull the "pump's" rated hp load regardless. This is the cheap fix IF the power is clean.

To answer your original question of other motor manufactures, you will have to look at Imported ones such as; Grundfos (Made in the USA now) is your only other viable answer. All the other imported manufactures I have not had good success with.

Good Luck

Bruce