Login | Register
The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Previous in Forum: Dry Type Tafo   Next in Forum: Dynamometer Power Calculation
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







19 comments
Member

Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5

Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/03/2012 2:34 AM

We want to run a 60 Hz, 26.3 MW, 13.8 kV Frame V Turbine Generator on 50 Hz frequency.

Please help me whether we can do this or not.

What will be affect on rating of machine?

Will it change vibration profile?

What adjustments we will need to make in Speed governor?

How can we adjust Excitor and AVR setting?

Please give other details as well.

Also share practical experience if any.

Best Regards

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
4
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#1

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 3:47 AM

You will need a new generator and lots of other changes too. The other changes are exhaustive (gear box, generator controls, some turbine controls etc etc)

However, as you will need a new generator I guess that you will not want to proceed?

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Anonymous Poster #1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 5:09 AM

This shall be your second GA for your second post!

You might need to explain to OP why he needs a new generator tough, because that he might not have understood yet.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 5:55 AM

What is GA please?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: India
Posts: 1272
Good Answers: 33
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 7:02 AM

GA stands for good answer. It is to your credit. Congratulations Mark. Keep it up.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 7:11 AM

Muchas !

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
3
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#6
In reply to #2

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 7:28 AM

Further....

The voltage produced by a generator increases with the speed of the field/rotor. If you decrease the speed from 60Hz to 50Hz, or from 1800rpm to 1500rpm or whatever the relevant speeds are, then the voltage output of your generator will decrease accordingly.

You might think that you could increase the strength of the field by increasing the field current to get the voltage back up, but the rotor windings would not take this as it would be above the rating. I would guess that the generator controls might not be rated for such an increase in required field strength.

Less speed would mean that the airflow thru the stator would be less than rated and cooling etc would be an issue.

Also there are more complicated issues to do with waveforms in the stator windings which would mean that you need a new stator but I am not an expert in this area and you would need somebody else to advise you on this aspect.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind
Posts: 514
Good Answers: 11
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz frequency

10/03/2012 7:54 AM

Now I think you deserved another GA. Keep it coming!

And bye the way: Welcome to CR4!

__________________
Everything will be alright in the end. If it its not alright yet - it is not the end.
Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 821
Good Answers: 102
#8

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/03/2012 11:40 AM

This topic has been covered here before, see the following for more info, in particular responses 9, 13, 15 from someone who has actually faced this problem:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/76754

Contact the manufacturer, he is the only reliable source for this type of information, there are just too many variables and the risk of failure is very high if you do not have expert guidance.

__________________
Curious minds want to know, engineering minds get answers....
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#9

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/03/2012 6:31 PM

As regards the speed governor , the running speed of the turbine cannot be changed up or down as the compressor blades and the turbine blades are all designed and configured for the rated speed. You could be in compressor surge territory if you ran the turbine at 5/6 rated speed. So it just cannot be done.

The only way to change the speed output is to change the gearbox.

Maybe you could let us know a little more about your problem

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 821
Good Answers: 102
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/03/2012 10:02 PM

You are correct for slow speed industrial turbines, that's why I distinguished between the different types of prime movers. Assuming a gear change so that the turbine runs at its original design speed and the generator at 50Hz, the governor will still sense the same turbine shaft speed as before and control it properly, but any part of the governor that utilizes electrical input from the terminals of the generator needs to be modified.

The comments about the generator still stand though, since operation at lower than design speed can be accommodated if there are no critical frequency issues and it is properly derated.

The over-riding problem is that all the system auxiliaries that are driven by motors, pumps in particular, will run at the wrong speed, plus any control systems that have frequency sensitive power supplies and circuitry will need to be changed, replacing all that could easily make the project uneconomic.

__________________
Curious minds want to know, engineering minds get answers....
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Good Answers: 3
#12
In reply to #10

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 6:24 AM

I agree fully

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 13087
Good Answers: 127
#11

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 4:49 AM

I think that you have received good and correct infos here already. It cannot/should not be attempted.

We used to use "Rotary Converters" to convert voltage and frequency for quite large loads, one or more of these would allow you to change the parameters required, but allow your Turbine generator to continue to work as designed.....

There may be a more modern version (Electronics?) around that I have not heard of.....check carefully.

__________________
A man who can make a fool of himself in three languages strikes me as a three-time-bigger fool than a man who is confined to one! John le Carré/David John Moore Cornwell - The Tailor of Panama.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 557
Good Answers: 52
#13

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 9:07 AM

If the unit is designed strictly for 60 Hz the above posts are correct. The critical parameters are all too far off to be adjusted to 50 Hz operation.

However, GE designed many combustion turbine generators (including frame 5) with dual frequency (50/60 Hz) capability. We currently use a 32 MW LM5000 for peaking in the US 60 Hz grid, but it was purchased used from Asia and was originally connected to a 50 Hz system. The turbine, generator, controls, AVR, etc. were all designed to operate well (but not ideal) at both frequencies. If you have a dual frequency unit it should be stated in the specifications listed in the front of the operating manuals. It may also be on the unit nameplate.

__________________
Experience: The knowledge you gain just AFTER you needed it.
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3
#14

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 10:50 AM

Dear I am Shantanu Manik ( DEE , Jr Engg at a 20 MW CPP . I think you can do this.. But the machine rating will be erected .. Atfirst to keep constant flux density in the core u should reduce the voltage with the frequency (because the flux density is directly proportional to the V/Hz). As machine rated Voltage (V1) = 13.8KV Frequency (F1)= 60Hz so V/Hz= 13.8/60 Now if u want to run it in 50 Hz frequency - Then voltage will be V2 = 13.8/60 X 50=11.5 KV. Now As the rated Voltage of the machine is reduced so it can't give the rated o/p power(P1=26.3MW) to keep constant the current. If u want to run it in 50 Hz &11.5 KV rating . Then the rated power (P2) will be=26.3X11.5/13.8=21.92MW [where I1=I2]. So now the machine rating will be as follows - KV = 11.5 Hz = 50 MW = 21.92 Now you have to program your AVR as per the above rating. If you want to know more details please give me the name plate details of Exciter , turbine , alternator , gearbox (if any) etc...

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Commentator

Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 85
Good Answers: 2
#15

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 12:32 PM

Why?

Beside all the great answers you've been given, i still ask why the hell would you want to do it?

Try this for an idea, sell the one you got and buy another one "fit for purpose".

I think the cost of a new one would be far more economical than trying to adapt/re-engineer the one you have.

And before I go.... 60Hz to 50 Hz!! Have you bought/been given this generator in the USA and are trying to use it the UK or another country that uses 50Hz??

what's the story!!

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 197
Good Answers: 5
#16

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/04/2012 7:40 PM

Run the generator as per design.

Insert a properly sized VFD between the generator output and the load(s) so you have control of the frequency and the voltage magnitude as well as the placement of the torque curve.

It is much simpler, significantly lower cost, and extremely safer.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 821
Good Answers: 102
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/05/2012 12:37 AM

Interesting thought, perhaps you can provide an estimated cost for a 30 MW, 13.8KV VFD capable of providing approximately 1,250 Amps continuously and 6,250 short circuit Amps for short periods.

__________________
Curious minds want to know, engineering minds get answers....
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 24°19'25"E 59°17'35"N
Posts: 336
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/05/2012 12:49 PM

i ask a stuped question -- what if the thermo-hydraylic lift is used to lift a water for a water turbine -- like the excavators bucet -- one end has a support reaction -- stuff like that -- ? the vapour pressure doesnot pay off the heat generating it ...

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: 24°19'25"E 59°17'35"N
Posts: 336
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Running of 60 Hz TG at 50 Hz Frequency

10/05/2012 1:08 PM

this is even better one (i must stop eating these buff-cheescakes B4 i turn totally nuts) What if you put a stepper stepwise lockable fanns coated propeller infront of the actual wind turbine

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 19 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (1); ci139 (2); IdeaSmith (1); Joshi (1); MarkTheSecond (6); pwr2thepeople (1); RAMConsult (3); SHOCKISCAN (1); srmanik (1); thccontrols (1)

Previous in Forum: Dry Type Tafo   Next in Forum: Dynamometer Power Calculation