Can Anti-Parallel or Back to Back Connection of SCR Save kWh?

Sounds very scam-like. Can you post a link?

Refer to link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBcAPgCf7ig&feature=related

Your comment please.

Soft starter for the home? To control current surges for all the devices. A lot of bills have peak usage charge. The maximum watts drawn in anytime of the bill period for some time frame like 15 seconds. The utility company uses it figure stand by power. And you pay for the ability to have the power available. It's one of the surcharges. Lowering it would save cost.

Might possibly save a bit on the bill (where that kind of billing is used). That's a long shot from saving kWh.

Do you know any Power Saver on the market or Power Saver schematic diagram which REALLY save energy?

I can confirm that the Demand windows in my country is 30 minutes.

jraef; very good answer! perry

The word MINIMIZATOR is a dead giveaway. Right up there in "turbo encabulator" territory.

If you unbalance the SCR firing, you draw DC current that is not measured by the meter and can even act as a brake for the meter's rotor.

This DC current is fine for you strip heater and incandescent lights.

It is not good for the induction motors and definitively bad for the utility distribution transformer.

Totally illegal with big liabilities...

Will the SCR firing unbalance if one of the NTC thermistors is changed to 200 ohms for example?

I think that they are gate protections from overvoltage. Not likely to be a temperature control point.

The most effective way I have found to save energy in my home is to get after my wife about not having the doors and windows open while the heat or air conditioning (or both a the same time.) is on or driving to town and spending $10 on gas to buy a $1 item then come home or leaving the TV and sound system and every light on in the house 24 hours a day.

Yep I am married to a 36 year old 4 year old.

I believe that you are 100% correct. There is no break in the top line; there is no break in the second line. Although many components are connected to that second line, in all cases, it is BOTH ENDS of those components. They will all be at the same potential and thus have no current flow. GA from me.

It's not that trivial. How about this arrangement?

If the input was a 230Vac sine wave, would the voltage waveform at the output side be the same (given that a load was connected)?

[Note: I am in no way supporting the claim that the circuit can save power]

My dumb answer is no. The out put voltage will be reduced by an amount equal to the diode junction voltage drop. There will be some waveform distortion at the time of diode switching crossover.

I beg to differ with your response.... It may be true that the circuit is not doing any real energy savings but no matter how insignificant the energy that can be salvaged, it is something!

I think the circuit will behave as follows!

1. Any load that gets connected at the right end of the circuit, will make the circuit complete and therefore current will flow..

2. Depending on the type of load plugged, if mostly resistive in nature like a heaters or incandescent bulbs, there will be no reaction since the voltage and current remained in phase.

3. If the load becomes mostly inductive as in motors, it will change the overall circuit's behavior, since some phase difference, harmonics will be introduced due to the inductive nature of the load..

4. At this point, whatever phase difference presented in the circuit will cause an equivalent unbalanced in the current passing on the neutral wire which is now considered as a wasted energy since it will ultimately be sinked into the ground or earth potential without those thyristors in place!

5. But with the thyristors in placed, it will react and behave differently to whatever unbalance current it senses along that neutral wire. It will divert whatever current difference sensed before it got dump to the earth ground and used that salvaged energy to drive the small fan in the schematic!

I maybe wrong in my thinking so pls. correct me!

Are we all seeing the same circuit diagram, and has there been any editing or change in it? I did NOT see T₁ when I studied it yesterday, or I would not have said that there's no break in the second line. Don't see how, but maybe I just missed it. I also cannot see any neutral wire now, nor did I then, and whatever it says at the left end of both lines is too blurred to decipher, so . . . maybe one of them is supposed to be neutral? Or are we supposed to ASSUME that there is one, though not in evidence, or to consider neutral = ground side? Old houses around here were wired with ONLY two conductors to each point, with no direct ground; a few areas of my house are STILL that way, because I'd need to tear out part of a wall to change it. Original wiring done in 1927, if penciled notes next to the four 15-amp fuses are correct. Hence, I don't normally assume that there will be power ["hot"], ground, and neutral all present unless explicitly shown to be so. My bias; your results may differ.

The circuit as shown in post #4, posted by JohnDG, is a magnified version of the circuit described by the OP. I hope /believe that we are on the same page, looking on the same schematic as the subject our comments!

I'm sure you are very much aware, that with regard to the 120 V power distribution in our houses, nothing has really changed much in the house wirings since Edison's time. Except for the "recent" addition of a 3rd wire called / labeled as 'ground', which was done for safety reasons only..applicable on newer constructions or when remodeling..

Residential 120 V systems can be either a 2-conductor (old house) or 3 conductor system (in newer constructions). The power carrying conductor has always been considered as 'hot', while the second conductor is called 'neutral', which always serves as the circuit's the return path back to power source.

Vsar. You wrote: "nothing has really changed much in the house wirings since Edison's time"

You certainly meant Tesla. Edison was a proponent of DC current distribution that failed miserably ... (It may come back once the technology is ready).

By the way, current going to the neutral conductor and eventually the ground is not wasted. It is a necessary path to complete the circuit. I suggest that you revise the circuit theory before trying to teach others.

You claimed that the inductive loads produce harmonics. Not usually true. It is mostly the semiconductors and other active devices that produce harmonics. In this case, the thyristors when they are not firing fully.

Under full firing, the load voltage will be very similar to the AC line as correctly posted by Joshi and incorrectly argues against by you. The ~1V drop in the SCRs is almost negligible.

You said that "any energy saving is good". That is not generally true if achieved at the expense of reliability, increased losses at the load, and payback period that extend beyond the useful life of the circuit.

I believe that in most case, this circuit fails the above criterion.

I hope that I am not offending you with this response. Have a nice evening!

Mr. Marcot,

Please re-read my original response as posted @#26, up to its last word.. Please take the whole thoughts, not just some words from it! Also while reading, bear in mind English is not my native tongue!

Regarding Tesla or Edison, sorry it has been so many years since...nowadays my brain only works part time...

This forum actually helps me remember, reminding me of some technical stuff I used to or did during my younger productive days!!

Thank you!

May be when the circuit is closed with the load. The potential difference across the thyristors is the source of power. I think we should design one and do some tests.

" I think we should design one and do some tests."

Go right ahead! Pray, who are these WE, you are counting?

Unfortunately, I could not find the thyristors and 120 ohms NTC THERMISTORS on the local market. I have even searched on Ebay but in vain.

The only and guaranteed way, to bring down your bill $$$ is to switch off, what you don't need, at any given time.

What is the use of 2 x 60 w. Bulbs, how it saves energy.

I think the bulbs are for limiting the current before supplying the brushless fan -12VDC 0.1A

Perhaps it is a device to set up circulating harmonics that interfere with the meter causing it to run slow. It might save money but not power.

I also think that this circuit will generate harmonics and will slow electromechanic type kWh meter. Power will not be saved but on the other hand kWh registration will be affected.

This ranks right up there with "Unattainium"....

<sniff, sniff>

Dog?

<sniff, sniff>

Cat?

<sniff, sniff>

Bull?

What this circuit does is to introduce a delay turn-on at the beginning of every half cycle. If you look at the waveform, it will not be complete AC cycle , but 'chopped' at beginning of the AC cycle.

1. The RMS voltage of this chopped waveform is reduced , more delay will cause more reduction. Any load connected to this supply will draw less power. THis is the trick many salesmen use to give immediate comparison, switching in and out this circuit.

2. The two SCR , due to imbalance in triggering , will generate unequal delay turn on, this will generate DC and high harmonics in the supply line. Any electrical load which make use of AC magnetisation, e.g., induction motor, transformer, fluorescent lamp ballast will experience overheating due to DC and high harmonics component in the supply. More imbalance, more overheating. A severe imbalance will even cause current spike in load current due to magnetic component core saturation.

3. It will be delicate to ensure both the positive and negative half cycle are tuned to have equal delay turn on. Power supply company has very stringent requirement on this unbalance ( I think it is less than 1%)

An interesting point raised by Marcot, if the DC generated by the imbalance of positive and negative cycle will cause brake on the meter rotor motor, then there is a possibility that the energy meter may have errorneus (lower ) measurement ! Anyone know what is the working principle of traditional analog energy meter ?