Has New York City Recovered?

For thousands, it's not going well at all.................just not being reported.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8915713

Lesson learned?

It doesn't matter who is in office. Government response sucks.

Do your own preparations.

Yep. I've seen it referred to 'Katrina on the Hudson'.

"When the power restoration crews from Alabama Power.. it was discovered that they were non-union crews. They were sent home." Wow. Is this really true?

"The politicians up there are the biggest obstacle they face." This, I believe, is true.

Yes, it is true.

It was widely reported here in Florida. We were all shocked. It is hard to believe politics would intentionally slow a recovery from a major disaster.

Now we know...

Edit: Actually Snopes is declaring this to be false. Don't know why is was reported as such.

It was just one crew. They never made it passed Virginia. They chose to go or where recalled home. They were waiting over clarification of a document they where given saying that while they worked in New Jersey and New York they had to affiliate with the union. While waiting the area that they had been dispatch to got the help it need from other sources. As I understand it in a state of emergency the union has no voice.

"When the power restoration crews from Alabama Power were called to help after Sandy, they immediately dispatched. Upon arrival in New Jersey it was discovered that they were non-union crews. They were sent home"

This appears to be untrue, snopes.

Sort of................

"Communications with Seaside Heights was poor due to lack of cell phone service in the area," the statement said. "Upon arriving at a staging area in Virginia, crews were held in place pending clarification of documents received from IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) that implied a requirement of our employees to agree to union affiliation while working in the New York and New Jersey areas. It was and remains our understanding that agreeing to those requirements was a condition of being allowed to work in those areas.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57544237/ala-utilities-our-crews-not-turned-away-from-n.j/

This should not be a part of emergency response.

Now I'm just confused.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/02/ala-utility-florida-crewman-blame-electrical-union-for-interfering-with-hurricane-sandy-relief-video/

Don't worry. I lived thru it. 2 crews came up. At first they were stopped, as noted. Then it was reported on TV. In a day or 3 some in the uni realized the bad publicity, and the blocking disappeared. They were assigned to separated areas to work.

On a different note. Weather service predicted many powerful twisters (in this season?!?). They have said something about strong windshear at different heights. Well, I live 1 hour inland from the shore, that the linear winds were max. 50% of the ones predicted for the shores. But, I got a powerful twister touching down. In the backyard 12 evergreen trees were twisted out rootballs and all. 2 steps further no damage at all. Then it skipped over 2 homes. Beyond that, it touched down again, and on 2 acres knocked out 30-50 trees. Then it skipped into a park and golf course a long way before touching down again and again. All mostly in the same line.

In 30 years this is the second time, that I even saw twister damage.

And NO, New York is recovering, nowhere near recovered. Manhattan is well over 90%, other boroughs much less. And not all is decided, what supposed be recoverable, and what will be written off. The latest I have heard, tending toward 50% payouts. The other 50% will then be swallowed by the owners.

Snopes is often wrong, just my observation.

NOAA says we will get much more practice at cleaning up after storms like Sandy.

We may not get much better at it, due to government inertia, waste, lack of coordinated preparation by federal/state agencies, greed and fraud.

At the risk of inflaming all the flat-earthers and those ignorant enough to believe it ain't so, the level of the ocean is RISING.

How do you practice I like to know? When in reality, right down to basic resources are knocked out.

First is to have a contency plan to get the basic resources on line, including communications. That would require back systems, possible military systems such as the National Guard......

A big problem is FEMA itself....it's an un-Godly huge and lumbering bureaucracy that cannot respond in a timely manner....nothing significant has changed in FEMA since the debacle after Hurricane Katerina. There's over 12,000 homes destroyed by Sandy, yet the manufactured trailers that FEMA has in hand are sitting idle and not reaching the people that need them the most.....some 700 trailers alone are just sitting in a FEMA depot in Maryland as we type away.

Recovery on the Long Island and Jersey shores is slow.....Federal Disaster $$$ has yet to be released (as far as I know) to aid in the reconstruction efforts......

http://www.acronymfinder.com/FEMA.html

Oh, for crying out loud...

Do you need an acronym finder if we discuss M&M's? Here, I'll help ya out.

A big problem is FEMA itself....it's an un-Godly huge and lumbering bureaucracy that cannot respond in a timely manner....

did they not create a whole other government department called Department of Homeland Security to help facilitate departments like these to run more effectively?

When will Washington realize you cannot improve an inefficient agency by creating another inefficient agency.

And if it wasn't for the private sector industries such as Walmart and its logistical expertise to step in, Katrina would have been allot worse.

They just created The Department of Redundancy Department to oversee duplicate functions within the federal government.

It's headed by Michael D. "Heckuva Job Brownie" Brown, owing to his (half) vast experience with disasters.

Yes, when it comes to disasters, They are the experts!

The impending zombie apocalypse will be devastating.....I wonder if the Department of Redundancy Department has a contingency for this.......Nuke Everyone and flee, perhaps? Ridiculousness!!!!!!

FEMA is another agency that needs to be shut down.

The entire notion of local disasters being handled from Washington DC, is ludicrous.

It would also help if people started taking hurricanes seriously. They sit there like idiots, not even bothering to get a flashlight, and then want to sit and cry because nobody's there to help them.

FEMA is a problem, as all other Government agencies CAN be..My daughter went to New Orleans , on a 2 week spring break from College, to assist after Katrina--They tore out mold invested drywall, opened up flooded houses, provided and helped with setting up shelters etc. She told me that the citizens they were helping said that the biggest problem was the City of New Orleans, that never came to help them--If it had not been for FEMA, they would have nothing. Mayor Nagin, left 80 school buses to flood, underwater.. The city had, like the previous poster mentioned, a week of notice, and evacuation scenarios to put into place. Look at the NASA and National Weather Service warnings posted 4 days before Katrina hit (It is all available in time links on NOAA)-- ;;Local gangs and the local Government put up barricades that outsiders couldn't get past. Mayor Nagin fled to Dallas, and gangs in Houston and Dallas trucked into New Orleans, and took care of the rest--The Locals were afraid to leave their homes in front of Katrina, because they knew that looting would take everything that was left--They were right.. When Anarchy becomes prevalent in Society, maybe the thought of arming oneself becomes a option. Look at what was going on in Long Island--The Government had 4 days to store extra fuel and provide for the worst--Sorry for those who took such a hit, and cud's for those citizens that shored up early, bunkered down with supplies, and were able to help others..

New Orleans is a special place...............it's like the Chicago of the south. Many of the politicians and cops are on the take, and are in the business of enriching their own lives.

The local response was abysmal. FEMA took a lot of criticism, but I think that even they were taken off guard by the complete lack of preparation, and the horrible response by Nagin and the governor. The entire incident exposed the ineffectiveness of government on the local, state and national level. They take our money and talk a good game, but when the sh*t hits the fan, they scramble around like chickens.

My suggestion to anyone, would be to assume that there won't be any government help, and to prepare accordingly. If and when they happen to show up, it's a bonus.

In both cases, the government should have been getting in gear days in advance, and getting the poor and elderly to safety.

Agreed, the leaders of governmental departments should not be appointed for repaying political debts. But should be installed from merits of their competence.

The departments will not go away, but installing competent leaders will improve their effectiveness.

To those that are still recovering, my greatest sympathy and best wishes.

It was ironic that the week after Sandy struck, I was looking through some of my "old" books and picked up a National Geographic from 1938.

It had great details of a hurricane that struck in that year and was comparing it to the 1815 "storm".

The pictures borea remarkable resemblance to before/after shots that are now on the web.

An island with new waterways cut through, trams in the main street with water above window level, whole streets of trees (planted following 1815) that had been blown down and so on.

The article talked of the challenges faced by the communications people who had sent their crews South to assist the gulf states, only to find that it was their home area that was more severly affected.

Of greatest interest to me was a picture of a plywood plaque showing the flood/surge height in 1938 above the brass plaque from the 1815 event. I still wonder how this one measured up against those others.

From personal experience, there will be some for whom the storm will happen again (in their memories) every time there is a strong wind or storm surge.

I was a little pissed about the non-union crews being turned away in NJ, so I emailed Governor Cristy's office and was emailed that it was a rumor. My next question would have been, "Why wasn't it squashed?"

I did he same for NY, but got no response.

Right wing propaganda at the time of the elections. Our church sent two volunteer crews there from here. One do do line repair and one to remove trees non union. This was way before the rumor came out. No issues at all they where treated as heros by both the locals and government. FEMA is there for recovery only not for rescue or prevention there seems to be some confusion on the definition of rules here.

Yep. Nothing but a smear campaign.

As the utility company representative from Decatur said, the unions didn't send anyone home. They set fourth employment terms that were so ridiculous, that the company couldn't sign them. So the guys were called back.

Why would anyone think that having unions dictating the terms of emergency response, would be a bad thing? We're only talking about people that are freezing, and have no power and water. Making sure that the unions get there financial cut from any work performed, should be priority #1 in any disaster situation.

Because what your saying didn't happen. APS and SRP both from AZ both none union both sent crews without issues. Again a rumor started by a right wing organization union and government haters.

General Manager Ray Hardin appeared on Fox Business Channel Friday morning saying, "We were presented documents from IBEW that required our folks to affiliate with the unions and that was something we could not agree to."

Decatur Utilities later released a statement expanding on that, "Upon arriving at a staging area in Virginia, crews were held in place pending clarification of documents received from IBEW that implied a requirement of our employees to agree to union affiliation while working in the New York and New Jersey areas. It was and remains our understanding that agreeing to those requirements was a condition of being allowed to work in those areas."

Something happened. Why would union contracts be sent to Alabama to be signed?

Looks to me like the union walked it back, due to the bad publicity.

Fox news good source. Like I said ring wing propaganda before the election. I guess Alabama was the only one that had issues because one one else did.

I'm sure it's all hogwash. I don't know too much about unions. Just the destruction at the Wisconsin capital and the recent beatings and destruction in Michigan. Good bunch overall, just don't mess with their money.

I am from Mumbai India. I had impression that such lethargy exists only in developing nations, but now I am surprised it also exists in developed nations too.

I don't know if it's lethargy, or the assumption that everyone is in this big, wonderful government safety net, in which nothing bad can ever happen.............and if it does, government will have it fixed in a couple of days.

Kind of like grownups that believe in Santa Claus.

I hear a lot of blame placed on the governments involved.

What about the people?

I talked to a friend that's been up there from 45 days. People have been coming out of the wood work asking for FEMA relief aid. The majority have no claim. He said he had to have one gentleman escorted from the building. The man made 350 thousand a year, was a millionaire and hadn't even approached his insurance company for damages. The man demanded his relief money. My friend said most the people that apply for aid do not need it. Some of them just looking for hand out and have no damages at all. Many have insurance that they don't want use. Which slows down the money getting to those that do so they can rebuild.

Nothing wrong with 'The People', You have to realize that 'The People' as you call it, are the taxpayers who are paying these departments to facilitate in these situations.

Problem is it's money pissed into the wind, and its 'The People' who actually have to come to the aid. i.e., 'The People' are paying for it twice. one to support an ineffective government machine, and the other, by volenteerin/donated to organizations to actually if not get it done, at least bring it under control.

So what you say is any of "The People" that holds their hand out to FEMA should be paid. Talk about pissing money to the wind. The media would like that government giving money away to people that didn't deserve it. Wouldn't doubt that someone from the media stood in line for free hand out just get the story. These free loaders slow the process down when there is a lot more of them then just applicants.

Here I thought it was a government of The People! So We The People have aways come to their aid. So whether We are effective or not. We have no one to blame but ourselves. We voted them into office. It's only because We have created this ineffective government these organizations arise.

What I commented on in the my first post comes from a friend that is a volunteer on the ground there. It's just one of the problems been faced.

There is no doubt in my mind that FEMA is ineffective. There is not much our government does that is.

So what you say is any of "The People" that holds their hand out to FEMA should be paid.

No.... never said that. I am against entitlements then inhibits people from helping themselves when they have the resource where they can.

It's in your words 'The people" that pay for FEMA through our taxes to begin with.

FEMA that can be a huge monster that takes time to react and is suppose to be the facilitator in an Emergency. And waiting for the Emergency response from FEMA, it is again. Instead of waiting for FEMA, what happens is benefits and fundraising is held by 'The People' to get basic supplies and releif to the affected areas. while FEMA tries to get their crap together. And the Political Correctness term for getting their crap together is, "We are accessing the situation'.

So the Point I was getting across is, We as taxxpayers pay for FEMA to facilatate during a deaster to bring releif and regain control, yet what actual happens is benefits and fundraising is held by the private sector (i.e. "The People") to actual do this. i.e. we are paying for it twice, one to FEMA to be proactive through our taxes, and the other through fundraising after the diseaster strikes to get relief to where its needed while FEMA is accessing the situation.

We may have voted for them in office, but that does not mean our work is over. Who we voted in has to do their job.

your last statement of :

'There is no doubt in my mind that FEMA is ineffective. There is not much our government does that is.'

I am in total agreement of.

Hate to say it, but this is repeat of some of the actions taken by people after 9-11...There was so much chaos, that billions of dollars went out in repetitive payments, or fraudulent ones. Same thing with flooding of many of our large rivers, where the snowmelt is excessively heavy .. Same people get Govt. handouts and go back and rebuild in the same places. Brings to question, as we are having here in So. Cal., with numerous wildfires, that put local and Federal firefighters and relief workers in serious peril---Can we or should "we", be able to tell someone that they are outside of a "reasonable resource area", and should not expect any help outside of what they can personally provide? That includes Government relief, and 3% , never pay back loans... If someone builds on a spit of sand, that is 10' of seawater away from total destruction, should the farmer in Iowa have to pick up his tab? Most, if not all, of that seafronmt property is owned by very wealthy individuals, by looking at real estate prices for such. .Just a question--Maybe for another thread..

Actual ozzb I misread your post here. 'Those People' are a POS IMO.

This storm was a disaster, just like many others we have had and will continue to have in the future. Recovery is slow, and very painful for those who are living in the zone.

What a disgusting read of posts. Many of them focused on a false rumor. Even after proven false, it is still a strong topic. Many of them blaming government agencies for not responding. Many of them blaming government for being too slow, or purposely impeding the flow of aid. Some of them blaming utilities. Some accusing NYorkers's of fraud. (I think the word "most" aid applicants didn't need the aid was used) Some supporting abolishment of FEMA. (I guess they are suggesting that disaster relief needs to be either perfect or non existent.) What a bunch of babies, and a perfect display of right political views. This thread wreaks of indignation, which would be 180 degrees off if it happens in your neighborhood.

So, how's it going in Staten Island? very slowly, with private insurance estimated to cover about 25% of the incurred costs to private claims, and the Federal government funding about 30% of municipal (Burroughs and NYC) claims. That leaves a massive hole for non-profits to fill for those who can't fund their own recovery, or simply leave. I say it each day. God help us.

Your wrong PFR, the biggest room the government has is room for improvement.

That that will not happen, when you except what the government offers in return for your hard earned tax dollars.

Sure there are those who will sit back and accept things as they are. Thats is too bad.

While others will not except underperformance and challenge the status quo for improvement. And that challenge will be towards government, public untilities, Fire/police protection. An example, do you feel its fair to pay your monthly untilities for only 2 week of service?

You see it's all a matter of perspective.

If you want to call people for challenging a sub-par system a bunch a babies, then all I can say is just stay out of the way while we try to improve the system.

That is the biggest load of BS I have read on here in a while.

I live in Florida and we have had many, many Sandy events, and many super-Sandy events. NY/NJ has only very occasional events, and they are unprepared for them due to this relative infrequency.

The Federal Government has never been the answer for Florida. Our local recovery systems are in place, we conscientiously prepare, and we take care of ourselves.

You may wish to read some of the live interviews from the residents of NY/NJ. They are not at all impressed with their local government response.

Your implication that those here who question their government are babies and politically right is a little narrow and unfortunate.

I have another view. I think they are concerned, patriotic American's, and I agree with you on one point...they are right.

This is my thinking exactly. I never suggested eliminating disaster preparedness.

Who better to handle it, than the local and state authorities where disasters are prone to happen?

We don't need a massive Washington bureaucracy to allot money to states according to risk. Thanks Jimmy. Another gift that keeps on taking.

Feds are trying to push a $60 Billion dollar "relief" package through, for Sandy..--Full of Pork for the last election supporters, and Unions, also, I am sure--Keep an eye open as it moves through the decision making process..Report back....

You know, his statement is not without irony.

He calls us babies. A baby is a person who relies on someone else for 100% of their support.

He then states that the people of NY/NJ need someone to "fund their own recovery".

Sounds like expected reliance to me.

When will Americans no longer need someone else to "fund their recovery" ? I think that as long as much of our population expects someone else to "fund our recovery" we are lost.

But I'm more afraid that I am in a shrinking minority.

It's no the government being lazy. It's a reactive vs proactive culture because being pro-active costs money.

I worked in a semiconductor lab and it was deamed that it would be a good idea to install hydrogen detectors. So when a 1500 PSI burst of hydrogen was released through a line rated for vacuum, where were the hydrogen detectors? They were safely stored in a box.

I think it was deamed by management that it was too expensive to shut down to install the detectors.

The lab shut down as it was supposed to because of the safety system I designed. It actually shut down due to a ventilation alarm. The root cause was a defective excess flow valve, a safety device.

We went through a Job Hazard analysis and determined what had to be fixed. Procedural changes such as cylinder changes before normal working hours with SCBA's and a couple of extra bodies and an in; out sign-out sheet to be able to account for people. Fire drills/alarms also checked for everybody on the list.

Purge cyliners were dedicated for certain gasses and in the same cabinet. The excess flow vales were removed and replaced with orifices and ALL piping must withstand cylinder pressure, even the vacuum lines for vacuuming out the regulator.

The ventilation monitors were destroyed and had to be upgraded. The old ones never had a readout. The readout really turned out to be invaluable because it tells you when the belt needs to be replaced or the sensor needs to be cleaned.

It was also decided to add some protection for the operator, so that it would be impossible to open the load lock and reactor at the same time. The system was designed, built and the hooks added, but where did it end up? Sitting on a shelf somewhere.

Again, too much disruption to install.

Management also decided that a 20,000 kilo-gauss magnet didn't need to have it's water alarm fixed. The alarm just rang a nasty bell if the magnet power supply was on an their was no water. Ok, but not the best. It was not fixed because "1) Someone is always there when it's being used and 2) It's not being used regularly and 3) It cost money and time to fix.

No one does what's right.

I'm not going to bust PFR's chops too hard. I'd probably be trying to protect my cushy government racket too.

The problem is...............no one will bail out our entire country. The world bank is not going to hand us $1.5 trillion a year to maintain the status quo.

I'm not looking to pick fights. It would be a shame to see the single greatest experiment in human freedom fail though. I don't think a lot of people realize that it can happen. The Romans didn't.

We are spending $60K per household, per year, on each poor household, in our war on poverty..................and they never leave poverty. It's true. At some point, (very soon), this stuff has got to stop.

Florida receives huge Federal disaster relief funds, fourth in rank nationally, behind Texas, California and Oklahoma, proving the point (in your case) that ignorance is bliss. The Federal Government is the primary agent for disaster relief in Florida. Good for you for preparing to utilize this massive fund.

Any disaster relief is going to the Counties and State for infrastructure repair, not the people.

I have lived here for 24 years and have seen many hurricanes. I do not know a soul who ever received a penny from the Federal Government, only supplies from relief agencies (Red Cross, etc.)

On another note, are you related to God? Just asking because I noticed you are in three states at the same time, sort of semi-omnipresent.

Funny my cousin owns a shrimping company that runs out of Pensacola Fl and Mobile Al and receives quite a bite from the Feds and states for both his company and home. I guess you have to know what your doing and actually have Fed flood insurance in order to receive flood aid.

That all goes to the County and City governments to clean up the trees and signs that get destroyed. I know of no one individual who ever got help from FEMA or any other branch of the Federal Government after any hurricane to hit Florida since Donna and I've sat here through all of them. Some people in Punta Gorda got FEMA trailers after Hurricane Charlie but had to move out of them because they were so new the formaldehyde fumes were too strong to sleep in them.

All the government employees are on-call before and after the storm, racking up huge overtime. Power companies take care of the lines down once the streets are cleared enough for the trucks to get through.

The rest of us pack our pantries full of food and water in April, have 20 gallons of gas for all our personal generators (I know very few people who don't own one) so we can plug in the fridge and the TV and sharpen our personal chainsaws. We usually have to clear the streets enough for the County guys to get their trucks through to unload their big loaders.

The Building Department does help out by giving us a 30 day moratorium on building permits after a big storm but that is because it takes 30 to get a permit normally.

Do you have Fed flood insurance? Must people don't that's why they aren't receiving much in rebuilding there homes and businesses. My aunt lives at Sandy Hook has fed flood insurance and has received her first installment after the appraiser came through. So maybe the problem isn't the fact the money and services aren't there it's the fact people are just to dim witted to figure out you need insurance to get your property fixed.

nope, none as I designed a wood framed hurricane proof house in 1980 on 8' high concrete pilings, batwing gables and crossed shear walls going through the middle, and although I have wandered a bit I kept it all these years.

I built the house completely by myself after work and on weekends while living in my travel trailer in the back yard. Beer (Michelob) was involved as a motivator to work the latter half of the 14 hours days required to finish the house in a year. Elevation of the property is 13' NGVD. I will never sell this place.

I've never had wind or flood insurance of any kind (nor a mortgage) nor any wind or water damage of any kind even though the large drainage canal behind my property connects to the back bay only a mile away. The list of storms is extensive and impressive with Andrew, Charlie, Frances, and Wilma being direct hits. Most others that came near had only Tropical Force winds.

I left all the trees on the 1/2 acre property except where the driveway and house sit. These help divert the winds up to triple digit wind speeds but after that the winds find a horizontal path even through the thickest thicket.

It also has alcove porches front and back (north and south facing) so I usually always sit out on the leeward porch with the door open during the worst part of the storms to allow for wind pressure compensation when the gusting gets active. I've watched wind speeds double in a matter of seconds.

Horizontal rains driven by 100+ mph winds are impressive to watch. Nature in action, and especially the movement of trees that otherwise are as stable as granite, is amazing to witness.

All walls are stick framed, 16" O.C. with SYP 2x4, rafters are 2x8 SYP (no trusses). Wall sheathing is double layer of 1/8" Thermo-Ply beneath 5/8" T-111 SYP plywood siding. Interior shear walls also have 1/8" Thermo-ply beneath the drywall on one side. Both layers are nailed 4" O.C. around the perimeter of each sheat and 6" O.C. in the middle. The Thermo-Ply was hand nailed with 1 1/2" roofing nails, T-111 with 8d galvanized commons, all framing with 16d galvanized commons. No glue anywhere. Roof sheathing is 1/2" pine CDX with the same nailing pattern. Architectural asphalt roof shingles are hand nailed and mastic used around the perimeter, 4/12 pitch.

There is no movement in the structure of the house, even in gusts over 120 mph, and very little in the way of hurricane strapping, unlike the newer frame homes built to 150 where every 2x6 exterior stud is strapped from truss to footer.

I desinged and built a similarly constructed house in NC 3 years ago for a friend (by myself for my 60th birthday to see if I still had one more left in me, lol) but opted to simply glue all the sheathing to the walls, floor and roof with the same nails and nailing pattern. It was on the side of a valley so the shear wall down the center was parallel to the line of the valley. It doesn't move either.

And here we have it. There is absolutely no justification for this crap!!!

All while telling us that taxes have to be raised. These people make me want to puke.

http://morichesdaily.com/2012/12/obama-sandy-aid-bill-stuffed-holiday-pork-unrelated-storm-damage/

Thanks for reporting back--I saw the same news--That storm must have had a real strong Westerly track to make it all the way to Alaska...

It was massive. Bigger than anyone could tell. It caused millions in damage to GITMO, and DHS needs a new fleet of cars. What a whopper of a storm.

Wished it would have reached So. Cal. I could use a new boat, cars, and a major workshop re-do---

What gets me so mad with this abuse and waste, isn't even the money itself.

I don't see it as money. I see it as units of work.

It may not mean anything to the people in Washington, but for the people that have to wake up every morning and go earn it, it means a hell of a lot. When they raise our taxes, each one of us that is working, has to commit more time at work to earn the money to give them.