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Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/02/2013 8:05 PM

Hi folks, I want to know the difference between pressure and flow. I mean the relation. I recently had an installation on gas system. I used regulators to reduce my pressures from a high pressure station to a low station. In commissioning, my set pressures were okay but my flow was very low and could not light my burners after 30 seconds. Low flow droping the pressures. I want to know the relation between pressure and flow, and are there regulators that are meant to regulate flow as well as pressures? What might have been the cause of my low flow? I had enough gas in the vessel. Thank you.

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#1

Re: relation between pressure and flow

01/02/2013 8:36 PM

High pressure, high flow.

What more do you need to know?

Gas laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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#2

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/02/2013 9:25 PM

Your regulator and/or line is too small....

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#3

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/02/2013 10:47 PM

Flow is proportional to the square root of pressure difference.

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#4

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/03/2013 12:19 PM

Regulators are sized for both pressure and flow rate.

A regulator can regulate to a given outlet pressure, but only have a limited capacity to supply a flow volume above its maximum design flow rate.

Whoever sized your regulator only paid attention to the pressure range, not to the flow rate capacity rating.

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#5

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/03/2013 4:16 PM

pressure = how hard something is being pushed, flow is a non specific technical term that means several things to different people

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#6

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 12:55 AM

There is no better description of the pressure/flow relationship, in my opinion, than the Bernoulli equation:

http://www.princeton.edu/~asmits/Bicycle_web/Bernoulli.html

It explains or helps to explain more of the everyday pressure/flow problems than any other single equation. Get to know and understand it and it will answer pressure/flow questions for the rest of your life.

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#7

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 2:41 AM

Here's a thought experiment; fill a glass with water from a syringe with a small bore needle attached. ( high pressure + low flow )

now try filling a glass of water from another glass filled with water. ( low pressure + high flow )

Try to work out what causes the difference.

Hint; don't get bogged down on ratio of flow to pressure, look at the remaining characteristic.

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#8

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 5:35 AM

To explain your problem I am going to use filling a bucket of water as an analogy. Imagine that you have a tap at the bottom of a hill (your burners) and a lake at the top of the hill (external gas supply) with a connecting pipe. When you turn on the tap the pressure is so high so the water shoots past the bucket and does not fill it. You can solve this problem by adding another tank at the base of the hill with a ball cock. Now the water flows down the hill into the tank and when it is full the flow stops. If you open an outlet valve on the tank to a pipe connected to your tap the head is lower so the pressure is lower. The water now flows into your bucket. (You have added a pressure regulator.) But your bucket is not filling fast enough so you put in a bigger outlet valve, pipe and tap between the tank and the bucket (equivalent to fitting a regulator with a larger flow rate). Your bucket now fills for 30 seconds at the required flow rate then slows to a dribble. (the situation you are observing) What has happened is that while you were filling from the volume in the tank you have adequate flow, but when the tank empties the tank is only delivering the amount of water that is flowing down the hill. It is passing through the tank so is at lower pressure, but the flow is determined by the size of the pipe between the lake and the tank. (This is the rate of the external gas supply available) Because it was flowing at the correct rate for 30 seconds you know that your regulator is sized OK and does not need increasing. What you need to do is talk to your gas supplier to see if they can upgrade the supply available. Alternatively if your gas use is intermittent, you could increase the size of the tank so that it does not empty over the time you are filling the bucket. This is equivalent to putting a gas accumulator prior to your regulator. There are lots of rules associated with storing gas so this option should only be contemplated if the cost of upgrading the gas supply is too high.

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#9

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 6:08 AM

LPG?

Check vapourization. If you need a flow which is higher than the vapourization in the vessel than the pressure will drop (vessel will get cold) and flow will drop to zero.

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#10

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 6:36 AM

I never thought I would say this but Pressure is like Voltage and Flow is like Current. The analogy isn't exact because Ohm's law doesn't apply. Ohm's other law - there's no place like Ohm.

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#11
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Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 7:01 AM

I buy the voltage part, not so sure about the current part

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#13
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Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 9:36 AM

What in your opinion is flow? I see this as motion of a something through a medium past a plane contained within a finite boundary condition (like a pipe or a wire).

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#14
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Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 9:48 AM

Verb(esp. of a liquid) Move along or out steadily and continuously in a current or stream: I just think this is a typical example of different terminology from one person to another. I'm not certain what he was using to measure his "flow"...probably just a semantical difference on my part
cheers

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 9:24 PM

Current is the flow of electrons in a conductor. One Ampere is the current produced by 6.023x10^23 electrons (one Coulomb) flowing past a fixed point in a conductor in one second.

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#16
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Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 9:34 PM

oh really?? I kinda thought "flow" could mean quantity of gas...water, sludge, milk whiskey, etc. I never knew "flow was limited to electrical theory. thanks forsteaightening me out

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#17
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Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 10:34 PM

Huh?

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/05/2013 5:58 AM

Fredski, Gene referred to Current in a context clearly electrical. Now, if we want to be pedantic (and as a part-time prof, I am frequently so accused!) both Current and Flow have meaning in reference to all kinds of fluids.

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#12

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/04/2013 8:07 AM

What is the pressure in your vessel where combustion is occurring? If the line pressure is not greater than the pressure in your vessel there will be low flow and your burners will flame out. The pressure on the line really doesn't matter, as long as you get enough flow to maintain combustion and at the same time not over pressurize the vessel.

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#19

Re: Relation Between Pressure and Flow

01/15/2013 2:46 PM

I would agree with Iris it appears the regulator is sized too small for the flow application.

When setting the pressure when the burner is off the flow is almost nothing and the regulator has closed. When the burner is lit it consumes all the gas in the pipe downstream of the regulator causing a flame out before the regulator has a chance to catch up with the increased flow demand.

Check the flow capabilities of the regulator you have, if it is large enough then try and get the burners to light with a slightly higher setting on the pressure regulator. The operating pressure can be significantly different then the static pressure. A problem you may then see is when you have a flame out the control valve trips closed and the regulator, will over shoot possibly causing a high gas pressure trip.

If things are sized right a good burner tech. should be able to help with the set up.

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altennant (1); Fredski (4); Gene Hayes (3); Geoffrey36 (2); Iris (1); James Stewart (1); jhhassociates (1); JIMRAT (1); lyn (1); Poison (1); SolarEagle (1); Tornado (1); v.babel (1)

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