Microhydro Project

Look here.

12 foot diameter penstock

Maybe these guys can help.

Thanks but The Thread is for the Northeast, I need something located in Houston or Austin and for residential not commercial.

There's probably a reason why there aren't any hydro companies in Texas.

Start calling civil engineers in your area.

Is there enough elevation change/rainfall in the Houston/Austin vicinity to support a local company specializing in micro-hydro turbine installation?

Not sure but I have a stream year around so for me it would be beneficial to install hydro.

elevation change? flow rate?

not sure, thats why I wanted a professional consultant.

You should be able to get an idea of the elevation change from things like a survey or plot for the land. Are the purchase documents accessible?

If not, there is probably a topology map of your area online. There will certainly be detailed information available through your local equivalent of city/county clerk or register/recorder of deeds.

What kind of Flow rate do you have??

As stated elsewhere in the post:

11 GPM

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You'll also be needing elevation change....which is minimal.

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How's that expensive hydro system you are pushing looking now?

It also depends upon the ownership of the watercourse. In the UK, the ownership and maintenance of natural rivers are the responsibility of the landowner on each bank up to the centre of the waterway under a Common Law provision called "riparian rights". This is not the case for a canal or a statutory navigation where the adjacent landowner's rights end where the river bank meets the waterway. Installing something on someone else's property can cause issues, and are best dealt with by appropriate legal advice.

The output from a waterwheel or turbine depends upon both the flowrate past the device and the head loss across it. Unless there is some significance in the magnitude of these, the amount of power available might be so low that no commercial operation would see a viable market for the equipment. So in reality, one may be wandering into the home-brew sector to create and operate the equipment.

Ummm, I have no neighbors nor do I plan on obstructing the water supply. My goal is to use the hydro in congunction with solar and power my home. I have no intention of selling power!

If you will not obstruct the flow of the creek, you will not generate power from it.

This is a simple fact.

Can you properly mark your ranch for us on Google?

http://www.hgenergy.com

Get in touch with Texas Energy Engineers Inc in Houston, TX.

Microhydro Energy System Manufacturers in the United States

Energy Report - Hydropower - Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts

Hydro Green Energy: New, low-impact, low-head hydropower at non ...

Civil Engineering Guidelines for Planning and Designing ...

An internet search got these in minutes. Some Houston, some Austin.

Thanks, this is the only useful reply thus far.

Since you apparently missed comments #7, #8, #10 and #12 (and maybe a couple I myself glossed over), take a moment to check out the pertinent, valuable information therein.

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.(edit: I knew I missed at least one. You should also check out comment #15...though I don't see how you could have missed it)

Micro-hydro turbine is unlikely to be feasible in your situation. You probably want a captive venturi spiral or a traditional water wheel. I'm in Houston and would be interested in this project. Ask for me at TX/RX Labs. www.txrxlabs.org I'm a member there, we have several engineers/mechanics here that would love to help you! Ask for Art W.

Ok great, thanks. I was thinking probably a submersible propeller because I don't have much elevation But I will def be in contact to discuss details and find out my best options.

'... I was thinking probably a submersible propeller because I don't have much elevation...'

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This is part of the information that has been requested since you originated the post.

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That little tidbit alone is enough that numerous people in here will be able to give you important information about your project that is likely to save you and others time and money...

...given your lack of receptiveness to pertinent info in previous posts, I'm going to let someone else fill you in, if they care to.

Sorry if I came across as non receptive, that wasn't my intention. I also wasn't purposely withholding pertinent info, I just didn't have it to give. Originally I was gonna do a turn key project and hire a company with more experience and knowledge to find out the details and complete the project. After the responses and helpful information shared I was inspired to get more involved and try to answer some of the questioned posed in earlier post. Yesterday, I tried to correctly estimate gpm by building a weir and use the 5 gallon bucket method. I came out with 11 gpm. In reference to the elevation I don't have exact info but what I can tell you is, I don't have any significant elevation. I was thinking about using the propeller because of the low head but I was also contemplating building a weir with a drop to create more head. I'm not certain about the weir because I don't want to dramatically affect the water flow, therefore the drop would be minimal. I was looking at the Power Spout low head generator and reading reviews on it but haven't decided on anything yet.

I understand. I'm glad you responded.

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Here is the thing you need to know: Without significant change in elevation, at that flow rate, it is highly improbable that you will ever recover what you invest in a hydroelectric system there.

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There will certainly be people willing to sell you things. But don't take that as a sign that buying those things is a good investment.

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Having someone tell you that the idea you've been spending time on is a non-starter, can be disappointing. Often the knee jerk reaction is to discount or ignore the advice and proceed by only speaking with the people who say it can work (those will be the people who have something to sell you).

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Any alternative energy investment you might have made toward the hydroelectric system would be much better spent on generating power from wind or solar, or both.

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If you are in doubt about my assessment of the viability of your hydro project, I'm happy to go into more detail.

What would be significant elevation change? 5ft 10ft 25? I am doing solar and wind but because we have a creek year around I wanted to implement hydro too. It is a bit disappointing.

You really need to contact me. There are two systems that can be built that don't require any elevation at all. Reduction in flow rate however is going to be significant, as much as half or more, depending on the size and flow of your stream. That is if they will work at all. I cannot say without a site survey, or lots more valid data!

the www.txrxlabs.org link requires me to pay a membership fee is there another way to get in contact with you other thn that site?

You can private message me on here. Send me your email or phone.

My goal is to be totally off grid with storage and as far as battery knowledge.. Im sure it could be better. I do know that it needs to be a deep cycle lol.

So where you from? Africa? Since your so so Smart, How is it that a regular small generator from a bicycle can make pwr with little effort? so if you little drag and able to give a the system gear reduction to increase the number of turns it makes then you get efficent output, its called a Multi-plyer, ?? You might be Brain Smart yet your not Street smart, I have to do these things in Order to save money since I live on a Limited income and keeping my pwr. bill as low as possible is how I came up with my system, Also they have a Device in which you can have a fire and with a probe stuck into the fire will convert the Kinetic Energy to Electrical Pwr . and charge you laptops and phones and other devices and the larger the device the greater the output of pwr. look into ( BIO-LITE SYSTEM. ) MY Friend.

'....MY Friend.....'

We are not 'Friends'. We might barely qualify as acquaintances, using the loosest set of standards.

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Look if you have some objection to the calculations I posted, please state the objection specifically. I will be happy to address your concerns.

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If on the other hand you won't detail your specific objections, an instead continue to insist I am "Smart'', I'll just have to concede your point.

EXAMPLE: A one nozzle turbine with the Harris PM alternator on a 2 inch pipe with 75 foot head and flow of 18 gallons per minute shows on the chart to generate about 115 watts (9.5 amperes 12 volts). Likewise, 25 feet head and 50 gallons per minute would give the same power, but the increased flow would require 4 inch or larger pipe and a 4 nozzle turbine. Each nozzle passes a maximum 20 gpm.

See chart here:Micro-Hydro Power

Good luck, go solar.

I was looking at the power spout low head not the pelton

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I don't think you may find a company near your ranch to install on turnkey basis the Micro Turbine. I suggest you should provide all details like water flow, site details, expected out put etc. to consultants, may be in this forum. You may have to install the project on DIY basis. It may not be difficult as you can yourself do it. I had seen a video clip where in small village a farmer himself had installed simpler version.

It consisted of small drum for temporary storage of water, an inlet and outlet, pipe connection to simple turbine fabricated by him which was connected to an alternator and a small electric panel for supply distribution.

I have a Design that will make Electric and not using water/ you could use water if you had a Ample Supply . A River or a Free Flowing Arestian? My Unit would make Pwr. and you would be able to Store it up for Later use and also Place Pwr, back into the Grid, So your Pwr. Meter would run backwards and If it ran backwards more than you used, Well quess what? The Pwr, Company would be sending you Money for your Pwr. that you been re-supply the Grid with and at a High Rate/Cost back to your Pocket, Now don't get me wrong my Set Up is not Cheap, But I have using the Same unit I made in 1998 and I had to only replace 1 Voltage Regulator in all that Time. which ran around $129.00. So how much Pwr do you want and Need for Reserve Pwr. and How much are you Using?

I have Property in Alvarado,Tx. and its pretty darn dry in my Area, yet I'm able to still place Pwr. into the Grid while I'm living in Califorina, Visisting my Daughter and Grandkids, and I actual get a Check from the pwr. company. So thats how low maitance my system is. I only have 225 acres , and I have been in califorina for 4 yrs and only been back to check on the system 4 times since Install.

As soon as I get my Design cleared after review at the Patent Office, And Then I will be able to Place a Patent on my system, Until then I'm unable to Assist you with your Issue, E-mail-* I look towards hearing from you Sir. Thank You and Have a Blessed Day. Until tommorrow.

*CR4 ADMIN - email address removed

From the CR4 Rules: Do not post phone numbers or email addresses. The CR4 Admin will delete all phone numbers and email addresses posted in threads or comments. You can share this information via the CR4 internal messaging system.

http://nooutage.com/aquair-uw.htm

Look up Hydrocat floating micro generator on U Tube. I have built several of these and Geared them to the body of water we were using, at 11GPM you do have enough water.

"....at 11GPM you do have enough water..."

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'enough' for what, exactly?

The Hydrocat is based on one of my old designs and limited in its ability. You would only be able to run about 90 watts continuously at 11gph. My newer more efficient system while more complex is vastly more efficient and utilizes an energy storage principal that can make it possible to harvest several hundred watts for several hours after storing energy for about 2 to 3 times the use period. Again though, I have a system than can use the small amount of energy provided by your stream as the maintenance power that will produce several kilowatts of electricity as well as hot water for your use. As to selling back to the grid, that's probably just a dream at best! My system is not hydro power, but it does need an initiating and stabilizing force that can be derived from hydro or PV. In fact it depends on both solar and thermodynamic sources. I only have two systems in operation at present but would love to help you out strictly at cost for construction and installation. I'm not going to lie to you, this is not a perfect system. It has some issues we are trying to solve that mean it will need several hours a week to keep it running at full efficiency, but it's not hard or expensive to maintain.

For 11 gallons per hour to produce 90 watts, a vertical drop of more than 600 meters at a minimum would be required.

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Please reevaluate the claims you have made.

Archimedes said, "Give me a long enough lever a fulcrum point and a place to stand and I will single handed move the world!" The Egyptians moved stones so large that modern technology is unable to move them, yet they did this quickly and efficiently with only man and or animal power. If you can understand and agree with these statements then you "might" have a small chance of discovering how it's possible to realize 90 watts from 11gph of water flow. It's about both efficiency of method and extraction of a higher percentage of the potential energy from the moving water. Imagine that 11gph flow separated from its physical environment and constraints. Now remove your mental limitations on how that flow can be manipulated. Create the perfect set of conditions for converting the kinetic energy in the moving water to electricity. You'll find that you can potentially achieve around 110 watts, as long as that amount of water flows past an imaginary point. The system I've discovered depends on getting much closer to that "perfect" condition of conversion by removing several of the "traditional" western methodologies that waste more that 50% of the available power. The Egyptians by the way used the power of a river that provided about 10kgph to pump 9kgph of water up 30 feet in elevation at dozens of canal locations to provide irrigation! I possess "some" of these ancient technologies. They are not practical in most modern schemes because they don't produce tsunamis of energy, just steady slow accumulations.

If you are going to use standard units like a 'watt', then it is helpful to know and use the standard 'cookie cutter' definition of a watt.

Otherwise, as you have demonstrated, it becomes apparent you have no idea watt you are talking about.

Well I do know a cookie cutter Engineer and that is what I was referencing ,no this demonstrates you have no clue or idea

Dunning-Kruger effect. Undoubtedly.

A watt is equal to a kg*m²/sec³ .

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Given the density of water and the acceleration of gravity, getting 90 watts out of 12 gallons per hour would require pressure head equivalent to over 600m/1800ft....assuming perfect efficiency. There simply is nothing to wring out efficiency wise.

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Look at your numbers again.

Your not listening. Head pressure is barely a factor when using this ancient system. I've also explained that my method "accumulates," both kinetic and potential energies. I don't know a thing about jcanadas offer, but it doesn't seem to be legit because he's not offering anything except "this works" with no kind of explanation how or why it would work in the face of all the engineering data that say otherwise. My system works by creating an accumulation of the flow. Sort of a dam and lake scenario except without the dam and lake. How long will it take for the 11gph to travel the 600m that base calculations show are needed to develop the power discussed? Depends on the size of the stream and the change in elevation! If we just drop a barrel with 11gals of water in it off a 600m cliff? t = sqrt(600/9.8), 9.8m/s/s being the approximate acceleration of gravity, it will take about 8 seconds. That's all the time needed accumulate. So, it will take 8 hours to reach balance when relying solely on traditional harvesting methods to achieve 90w. 16 hours accumulation will allow around 12 hours of continuous operation. If stored efficiently this would provide a 25w light source for as many hours as it would typically be used every day with no interruption in power. Not much. But as I've stated I'm not limited to "traditional" harvesting methods!

Oh, I'm listening, and I'm beginning to wonder why.

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Look, it makes no difference if you drop 11 gallons at a time... though even without wind resistance freefall from 600 meters will take over 11 seconds.... the point is since you specified 11 GPH, after the 11+ second freefall, you would have to wait an hour till you could drop your next 11 gallons.

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Moreover,, there is a huge difference between the energy available from a 600 meter drop and a drop of only a few feet, even if the flow rates are identical.

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You speak about ancient technology. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you are unwilling to divulge your method, then I suggest you refrain from attempting to argue the viability of your method. There is no reason to take it on faith that you have found a way to violate well established laws of physics.

In short, "wouldn't you like to know," how I'm doing this? I'm not violating any laws of physics, or thermodynamics more correctly. The fact is my system simply takes advantage of the laws of thermodynamics in a way that's novel to modern engineering. I go on to state quite clearly that this still is not any significant amount of energy, just 30pct more than your knowledge allows for. The question now is why you are still attempting to bait me. Could it be that you recognize that even this small improvement is potentially worth multi-millions of dollars in the world market? The facts are that there are 14.28 * 10^12m/kg of energy available every SECOND in that passing stream of water, 14.28 * 10^6 btu/h of thermal energy alone. It just needs to be converted into a usable consistent flow of electricity. The energy due to gravitation and displacement are negligible! As far as revealing my methods. A guy from Florida taught my dad this stuff and he taught me. This has been kept among a small group for generations. I have no intention of "giving" any of it away on a public forum!

Me baiting you?

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You claim you are not violating any laws of physics, and with that specifically, I agree, since the good ones are inviolable. But a problem arises when you insist your claims, of extraordinary energy production above and beyond a hypothetical 100% efficient system, should be taken seriously.

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You have an extraordinary super efficient system that utilizes physics/thermo in a novel better way that you don't want to license, explain the process, or otherwise share with the world? Fine. But, I will suggest you shut your pie hole.

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It is absolutely worthless to make claims about a system which you cannot/will not explain. To insist people believe or even consider the ideas you won't explain is downright daft. In this context, unwillingness to disclose is indistinguishable from inability to explain.

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I'm going to provide a very brief recap, in hopes that it will encourage you to keep your secrets more secret in the future.....

-The OP and the continuing subject in this thread are about the possibilities for producing electricity from a certain volumetric flow rate of water over a certain elevation change.

-After I provided a simple, valid way to estimate the most power that could be produced from a given flow and pressure head.

-You claimed not only that 11 Gallons per Hour....without mention of pressure head... could be expected to allow generating 90 watts, but that you had a way to beat that many times over.

-When pressed, you claimed 'ancient' technology and made references to Archimedes and ancient Egypt. Your most recent comment has further traced this ancient Archimedian, Egyptian technology to some guy in Florida who taught your dad, oh yeah, and you too.

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You can rest easy, I have no desire for your 'knowledge', mostly because I am unconvinced the value extends beyond comedy and perhaps a case study in psychology or sociology.

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Just a couple points you may find helpful if you decide to review what you are suggesting with more rigor.....

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- All that 'thermal energy alone' you wax poetic about isn't available in and of itself. Heat engines require a difference in temperature, for example, and as such, the total thermal energy is not possible to harvest. It would be great if it were, especially here in Florida....generating electricity out of the hot air with the only waste being cold air, would a real winner, but as far as I know no one has that figured out yet....and I'd give pretty good odds and wager substantial amounts that you don't either. It would still be a bet I would love to lose.

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- If you are going to suggest that the source of energy you are tapping provides 30% more energy than your estimate based on your guess concerning my knowledge would lead you to believe would allow.....you shouldn't follow that immediately with belittling the energy due to 'gravity'....ah, and 'displacement' as negligible. After all, negligible plus 30% is going to remain pretty close to negligible.

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-I don't think you need to fear '.."giving" any of it away on a public forum...'. To get rid of it, you would need some sort of enticement, some sort of value proposition. People aren't going to take it away for free.

"..."shut your pie hole," and "You can rest easy, I have no desire for your 'knowledge', mostly because I am unconvinced the value extends beyond comedy and perhaps a case study in psychology or sociology." are personal attacks...."

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You are misreading my comments. To begin with, understand that I am not angry, at all. That is definitely something you are reading into the comment. Maybe you are projecting?

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The "shut your pie hole" quote you used is out of context. It wasn't a command, but a suggestion, using less than stern wording. Come on, 'pie hole' is funny.... If you decided to be insulted, I suspect it was for being called out on an idea that you are either unwilling or unable to explain, but expect to be received with respect.

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The second quote is also not a personal attack. It is an assurance that your suggestion that I was out to steal you system is unwarranted because I am not convinced the idea is worth anything.

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I am not attacking you. I am calling out the unsubstantiated claims. You just happen to be the author of those claims.

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The recently popular idea that 'all ideas and beliefs should be given respect' is a bad idea unworthy of respect. If you feel personally attacked for your unsupported claims being called into question, you are too vested in having your ideas validated to get much benefit from an Engineering community.

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I do find one thing in your most recent comment intriguing and hopefully you since it doesn't involve disclosing secrets of your system, you will be willing to provide some specific details. You wrote;

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'...I suspect you are not because of some of your glaring errors here....'

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I invite insightful criticism, or even just pointing out things like typos. Even when it puts my stomach in knots realizing I was too cocky, I appreciate those who point out my errors as it is an opportunity to improve.

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So do your damnedest. Humiliate me by pointing out my glaring errors. Display my inadequacies for the whole world to see and look upon me with scorn and ridicule.

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Well?

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You didn't lock up that list of 'glaring errors' in the shed with your super efficient super secret super efficient machine, did you?

c'mon dog, share that bone. all of us here don't need to steal your ideas to make a fortune. we will give it away to third world farmers who live 300 Km from the nearest grid tho. CR-4 is a Fair & Balanced Source for assessment and criticism, no need to be shy and sercretive.

At 11 GPM yes he has enough to contribute to a system, I never said it would run his whole system, this is never a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket. I have built a number of systems that on paper the math and calculation's didn't work but in the field they have been working for years. Start by building a small low cost unit out of scrap lying around and then work from there, use this as a baseline to improve from.

"...I have built a number of systems that on paper the math and calculation's didn't work but in the field they have been working for years...."

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If the math and calculations on paper do not work, what would lead you to build it anyway? That certainly suggests you don't put a lot of faith in your abilities on paper.

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Setting aside the improbability of not being able to get calculations to work, yet lucking into a functioning system, multiple times, no less, I'm not sure I have confidence in the ROI calculation from someone who wasn't able to get the physical calculations to work.

Well you guys keep thinking like that, and I will keep making things work. I have done a lot of work as well that calculates out and dose work. The process I'm Talking about is stretching ones abilities and moving forward with engineering principals as guidelines, Documenting what works and what doesn't, and building on it. History is full of people who have done just that. Look at the fact's he has 11gpm this is constant movement that can be harnessed. 100 years ago a farmer that couldn't read or write would have made this work. Gentleman we need to start making things work, and pushing past the paper. Who knows a little trial and error sometimes leads to discovery even if it didn't calculate out.

A car alternator mounted directly to a 12" Pelton wheel, 50' of 1 1/2" water pipe with a 4' sand well point laid horizontially in the creek bed and 10 feet of head will give you 75 amps of 12 volt power.

Let's consider some numbers.

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50' of 1 1/2" PVC at 30 GPM will lose around 2.8 ft of head to friction. That leaves us 7.2 ft of head and 30 GPM.

7.2 ft ~ 2.2 m

30 GPM ~ 2 kg/sec

9.8 m/sec² ~ 10 m/sec²

Alternators ~ 50% efficient

Pelton Wheel ~ let's make it easy and say 100%

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2.2 m * 2 kg/sec * 10 m/sec² * .5 * 1 = 22 watts

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75 amps * 12 volts = 900 watts

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Uh oh....

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BUT....

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....if you were using 10 ft of head to shove 60 GPM down 1 1/2 inch nominal schedule 40 pvc and had another 10 ft of head just to run the 100% efficient pelton and it was connected to an amazing alternator that converts with a 75% efficiency.....

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... in that ideal scenario, it would still be an order of magnitude short, at just 90 watts.

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7.5 amps at 12 volts sounds much more realistic, though still on the high side.

the Pelton wheel, having a 6' radius and cupped fins with a slit in them to release the trapped water quickly works at greater than 100% efficiency because of the impact of the water combined with theconcentrating desing of the cups. the pipe is black flexible irrigation poly placed on the hillside with a long spiral left in it which allows the water to overcome the internal friction of the pipe (I forget the name of the principle involved there). the alternator puts out full amperage above only 250 rpm's which the pelton wheel powered by the necked-down jet nozzle sized for maximum rpm's under load which easily exceed the minimum for the alternator. i'd say 7.5 amps is too modest an assessment since you haven't added in the 'gearing' affect of the Pelton wheel's radius.

"...the Pelton wheel, ... works at greater than 100% efficiency because of the impact of the water combined with theconcentrating desing of the cups...."

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"...the pipe is ...placed ...with a long spiral left in it which allows the water to overcome the internal friction.... "

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"...i'd say 7.5 amps is too modest an assessment since you haven't added in the 'gearing' affect of the Pelton wheel's radius...."

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In my neck of the woods, we do this kind of thing on a special day in spring, we call 'April Fool's Day'. What do you call this day where you are from? Is it just June 19th or does the fun continue for multiple days?

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...you are joking, right? I think it is time to implement a few more punctuation marks.... at a minimum, one that indicates leg-pulling, and another that indicates sarcasm.

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Think if you coupled a high efficiency pump to the >100% efficient pelton wheel and had the output of the pump drive the pelton wheel..... you would have created the water bomb.

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BTW the typical car alternator has very poor efficiency if turning at only 250 RPM.