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Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 2:53 AM

Hi, I got a new lathe, (link shows loads of info and pics of the model)
Mrs Cat didn't want it plonked on the living room floor for some reason.
It's a superb machine but with some damage.
The back gears have teeth missing (don't we all?) but that doesn't worry me, as I don't want thread cutting at the mo'.
The bed and slides are gorgeous. It has a stunning 3 jaw chuck which is nice and tight (operates by a knurled ring and tightened with a C spanner).
It was an absolute pig to get off the spindle. Also a 4 jaw which I haven't played with.

The two chucks must be worth the £86 I paid for the lot.
One cunning feature is the 2 posts that are the spindle bearing/housings are actually removeable!
This is just as well as the spindle bearing at the chuck end is worn and has some galling. The back bearing is pristine.

I have several options for re-furb. As it's such a nice machine (19" bed, man liftable) I want to do a decent job.
I could send the spindle off to get it built up and ground a couple of thou over the original 3/4", and lap the housing.
Or if that's going to be too pricey, re finish the spindle surface and fit a split bush?
Do you guys have any thoughts, ideas of costs, cunning alternative ideas like packing the bearing out with squirrel hair?

Del
(exits chanting I've got a new toy, I've got a new toy)

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#1

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:06 AM

Well you might be able to just grind a key insert into the shaft and mount....cheap, fast....?

something like this

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#2

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:34 AM

£86? Ya coulda got a new top-o'-the-range job for 18 quid! You was done, mate .

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:45 AM

18 quid! yer balmy mate....link it...

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:51 AM

Del did !

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 6:11 AM

18£ 1952 = 158£ 2013

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#18
In reply to #4

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 5:22 AM

....and what year was that?

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#6

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 7:29 AM

OK, I'll take those miaowing proximity locators off the car. No ruddy good anyway - they only last once, and duct tape costs a fair bit when you have to replace it several times a day. .

ps - I am still waiting for my deluxe sculpture of 'archer in motion'. It's not too late to post it in time for my birthday. ER is too lazy to read every post, so she'll never know that my persistent requests have won it for me .

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#7

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 9:30 AM
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#8

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 10:46 AM

That is one fine looking machine. You now have a major decision. Does the machine make you happier than Mrs. Cat? If you rent Mrs. Cat, can you make enough to provide a proper home for Ms. Lathe? These are tough questions, I recommend you seek answers outside of an anonymous engineering website or the local pub. I also suggest that you refrain from imbibing adult beverages before making the decision.

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#9

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 11:25 AM

Since you don't have the tools to fix the worn parts, you need to find someone to build up the galled area of the spindle and ground it back to .750" dia. Then you need to have the 2 (posts) bored out and fitted with oil lite bronze bearings with an ID of .7505".

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#10

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 12:15 PM

First I would run the lathe and see if the galling actually hampers use. It probably came from the machine running dry. Look into oil cups, automatic oilers, they screw right in.

To avoid warping the shaft, consider grinding it down undersize and use an adjustable reamer to size new bushings. Line ream with a center in the tail of the reamer.

There are bushings for damaged shafts, too. This would save having to bore or ream the bearings.

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#11

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 4:34 PM

If you have the gears for threading, you will need a reversing motor. I don't see any method of thread indexing, or even a way to ease in the auto-feed for turning, I actually doubt it has that. It seems engaging and disengaging the worm drives is all you have. Ok for hobby work, I've done work on similar machines.

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#12

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:02 PM

Join the forum called Home Shop Machinist

Post your lathe make and model and your questions. There are some serious gurus on that forum and maybe someone will either have a spindle or can tell you where to get one and any other parts you need.

Enjoy!!!

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 5:13 PM

Cheers, will do.
Del

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#14

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/04/2013 10:48 PM

Components and manual is usually available on eBay at times.

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#15

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 1:03 AM

Dell - Don't know anything about your Lbs and quids but...

Do you have a good hard-chrome shop handy that takes on job work?

The spindle will need grinding below, chroming above, and grinding back to a target dimension.

As for the split housing, my neighbor there in Vancleave has the right idea with an oilite bushing.

Ken Hollingsworth

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#16
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 2:59 AM

Yup, I've E-mailed a place already http://www.spindleservices.co.uk/index.htm
... but it's bank holiday weekend and I have to be patient

Del

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#21
In reply to #15

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 8:02 AM

You could also turn/grind it to an undersize and fit it with a bearing with that smaller ID.

Many ways to skin a cat (sorry Dell).

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#34
In reply to #15

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 4:45 PM

Hard chroming is ok, as long as you don't get any on the chuck threads.

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#17

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 5:20 AM

Nice, great price, well done. ebay?

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 6:11 AM

Yeah, E-bay.
I'm getting it nicely cleaned up now. Got all the slides back on and adjusted. It's good and solid. The lead screw was filthy, but they are fun to clean up, just hold a toothbrush and rag soaked in your solvent of choice against it and wind vigorously.
Odd thing about this lathe is the lead screw is t'other way round to usual!
Been cleaning up the 4 jaw chuck too, don't think it's ever been used!
Del

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#20

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 7:47 AM

Wonderful old machine tool. After looking at your pic of the shaft with the worn bearing surface I would estimate .003" -.005" off the diameter would clean it up. Perhaps not to perfection, but leaving a few areas in relief which would actually help in oil dispersion. Then I would bore out the housing approx. .100" (.200" on dia.) and make a custom bushing. Material for the bushing could be simple steel like the original, but if you can find a piece of silicone bronze it would be an excellent upgrade. I have also used oillite bronze, but it's porosity, while excellent for lubrication, greatly decreases it's shock tolerance. So interrupted cuts you might make later could compress the oillite and you have a loose fit again. I have also used leaded steel. This is cheap and when kept oiled wears fine. I am assuming you will not be turning at speeds over 1500 rpm or so. If it does have higher speeds, then the silicone bronze, or any bronze alloy rated as a bearing material might be a better choice. If you are adept at machining, the bushing may be considerably thinner walled, leaving more of the original housing intact. But holding true roundness and inner to outer concentricity gets a bit trickier as you get thinner and thinner. Of course you could solve that problem by boring the housing, inserting the finished OD. bushing with a roughed in ID. and boring the bushing ID installed in the housing. You could get as thin as .03" walls on the repair bushing then, leaving a maximum amount or original housing intact. Do also note that as you turn the shaft to clean up the worn area, that you do not move the straight diameter to far down the shaft and lose too much of the tapered area which it appears is the mounting area for the pulley, making the pulley too loose or wobbly. Taking care to maintain true centerlines on your machined bores will allow you to keep tolerances close and improve the precision of all the work you do with this machine in the future.

I love refurbing old machines. I spent several years rebuilding Peerless Roll Leaf machines that were from the 1940's. And I spent a summer vacation some years ago in a dry cleaning plant that had even older equipment that hadn't been serviced for decades. When I finished, the owner couldn't believe how all his presses and other devices worked like new with production up 300% and his employees working easier. Old machines were made to be repairable and their designers, engineers and machinists were proud of their work. Keeping that stuff alive is very satisfying to me. I wish you all the luck in this refurb and would love to see the final results. I've been doing fine tooling work for 43 years and I still get excited at returning something from near scrap to it's former glory.

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:38 AM

Thanks OldTooly, very full and helpful post.

I'm rather new to this machining metal game but I'm hooked, it's a nice change from unsual wood based activities (bow making, google Delsbows to see some of my stuff).
I'll post some pics to show progress.
Del

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#38
In reply to #24

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 8:02 PM

for what its worth. training videos

I've been training up too... I bought one of these and hope to get one of these before the end of the year. (not much time to use it though)

Cheers,

Chris

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#39
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/06/2013 2:06 AM

Big boys toys.I just wish I had a bigger workshop (and budget).But I'm lucky, some guys don't have any sort of workshop.Off to do a bow making demo' and help with the have-a-go archery today, it's always fun.
Gotta admit wood working tools are a lot cheaper, and the material to play with grows on trees.I'm loving the lathe re-furb... dunno what I'll use it for. Prob get into crossbows again, it's gotta be handy for making trigger mechanisms and big fat points for the bolts (arrows).Have fun and play nicely with your new toy
Del

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#43
In reply to #38

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/06/2013 3:59 PM

I am envious to tears. A friend of mine has a shop loaded with these and more of these, and even some of those. I can't even get the wifey to turn loose (of my money) for a cheap Chinese lathe.

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#22

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 8:03 AM

Now you've gone and made me envious! Lucky you! Congrats!

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#23

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:15 AM

Would there be any reason to over think this as a good time to possibly upgrade to a live bearing for a more precise machine. When I acquired my Uni-mat SL-1 It had a bad set of head bearings. We spent a little bit of time with a bearing manufactures master catalogue and found a set of sealed class 11 bearings and have never had a problem since, with accuracy or overheat of the bearings from too long of run-time. I also acquired a Taig lathe with a lot of tooling it was a learning curve from old world of the Uni-mat to the new gen of the Taig lathe. But always a learning situation to be explored (we never stop learning till we stop breathing) Duke

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#26
In reply to #23

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:42 AM

Ah, (assuming I'm understanding you correctly) there's still the prob of pushing a ball race along the shaft, as it will be sloppy on the worn portion, and it can't be pushed on from the other end.

So either way I've got to build up the worn area or have a split bearing which will go over the un-worn portion.
The housing is also prob' not big enough to be machined out for a ball race.

Thanks for the input tho'
Del

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#28
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:57 AM

You might look at a bushing on either end and use the center for an oil reservoir. but after looking back at the pictures is the housing split to take out play or to hold tolerance with the shaft. If so you might go with a long bushing and cut out part of the bushing on the back side for an oil reservoir to keep the shaft oiled and cool. To prevent premature wear or damage from non lubrication, to save it from the happy machine shop in the sky. Duke

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 2:38 PM

Just a thought, could you replace BOTH bearings with a type that can take axial and radial loads?

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#32
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 2:40 PM

You can get flanged bushes...
Del

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#35
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 4:49 PM

Del look at your shaft it already has the thrust flange built in you just need to smooth the surface so you don't get any chatter with a load on it I usually use a thin oilite washer that I have heated the cutting oil out of and dropped it into synthetic Teflon oil like Tri-flow or Break-free to absorb the lubricants into the porous structure of the oilite washer I have had very little wear on the load bearing surface of the washer. I have used this method on several machines and not had any problems to date but anything is possible. The washer would not need to be very thick at all 10-15 thousands should do it.Duke Who say's I need the pointed little hat to get out of school.

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#33
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 4:34 PM

YES not easy to find a needle bearing the size to fit but possible. the side thrust would be held by the housing and the flange on the shaft. Duke

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#30
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 2:35 PM

GA

I would like to think that under the same circumstances, I would follow your suggestions, no more oiling for a start!!!

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#25

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:39 AM

A good look at this shaft and head Assembly looks just like some of my old key machines that I just dearly love for the way that I can do thing with my older machines that just can't be done with all the new fangled machines that cost thousands. I prefer my old machines that I acquired for $10.00 - $50.00 then repair them to like new or better condition. One of the up grades that I try is to bore or ream out the head and install a silicone bronze or oilite bushing then ream them to match the shaft size if it is not damaged beyond usage. some times we turn down the shaft a few thousands and then ream the bearings to match. Some of these machines are nearly 100 years old a few still had hand cranks in place of belt drives for electric motors. Some times there is enough material to install a live bearing instead of a bushing, These machines I can run at a lot higher speed with a more aggressive cutter and speed the process up a lot. It saves a lot of time when I can do it but not all of the time can you increase the speed and still keep the precision necessary for cutting keys. Sometimes you just have to take your time and do it the old fashioned way. Duke

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#27
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 10:45 AM

Cheers, that's the sort of approach I may take. My prob is I don't have much in the way of matal working machines, but I have a bag of favours I can call in.
I'm a bit worried about boring out the housing.
I've E-maild a spindle re-furb company and asked what it will cost and if they can do the housing to suit. Fingers crossed.
Del

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#29
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 11:47 AM

Hay Del there would be no reason to bore the head more than a few thousands to clean up the insides you can then install the silicone or oilite bearings as a slide in bearing of a few thousands thickness install the bushing with a finished outside dimension then boar/ream the bushing to finished size inside not a lot of work just takes a little time. you can also turn the shaft just enough to clean up the surface and compensate with the finished inside bore to install the shaft simple and effective and easier to repair in the future if necessary. Duke

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#36

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 6:43 PM

+I'd go with Mike K, polish the shaft, but don't worry about getting all the gall marks off, just the high spots, then do the same with the bore. Put it back together, oil it up and run it slow as you gradually take up the clearance and fit it back in. The scars in the shaft won't hurt a thing.

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#37
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/05/2013 7:38 PM

Looking at the pics, it seems the headstocks are adjustable. I don't see bearings at all, this is a very simple machine. It's built to have the clearance taken up as the shaft and bores wear. Installing oil cups or automatic oilers should help reduce future wear. Run it slowly as you take up on the screws, feeling for heat. Once it starts to labor or heat up, back off the adjustment just enough to keep it free and cool.

I've always wondered if STP oil treatment would be good for something like this, that stuff sure is slippery.

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#40

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/06/2013 8:20 AM

Hi all,

FIRST, congrats, Del, on a great new toy

SECOND, I found this short video that really amazed me ... not exactly what Del found, but still amazing. Not how I would want to do it, but if the power ever goes off, this guy will be in strong demand.

Kind regards ...

http://www.wimp.com/footpowered/

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#41

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/06/2013 2:52 PM

It looks as though you may have the "follow on" blog to Krises "bath breaking Blog".

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#42
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/06/2013 3:42 PM

Yeah, but none of you tightwads has given it any stars
Del
(Bwahhhh, bwahhhhhh)

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#44

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 5:04 AM

Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but yeah. Lathes are sooooooo 1973. The individual who sold it probably wanted a 3-D printer instead.

Anyway. How would one whizz-up a bow using one of those?

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 5:29 AM

Crossbow trigger mechanism rolling nut and pivots innit?
Machining chunks of antler, nice material.
I was doing a bow making demo at the bank holiday festival at our club.
Guy asked me if the polished waterbuffalo horn nocks on my bows were plastic.

I made a shootable bow 50# at 26" draw during the day, whist letting endless kids have a go with a spokeshave.
Del

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#46
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 7:43 AM

Good kitty you left the kiddies with all their fur to play another day. Duke

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#47
In reply to #44

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 7:53 AM

Heaven help us...

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 7:59 AM

Is it me or do some of these posts take on a life of their own. Duke, Now I have to go to work so I can play another day.

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#49
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Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 9:06 AM

Yes, they do take on a life - often way beyond what the original question was about. It's not to everyone's taste, but discussions can/do evolve and some totally unrelated stuff of interest can come up.

I'm playing nice on De's thread, and have no desire to see it go too far off the topic (as with the tongue-in-cheek Bath thread). It has some seriously interesting input. Sorry to hear the curse of working hours is upon you, but do come back when you can - I'll shaddup. This discussion is still very much on the topic, and it needs time for people 'in the know' to make input (some hapless souls only visit once a month). I'm only following this one because it's a topic I know little about. My mouth is zipped (for the time being) .

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#50
In reply to #44

Re: Del's New Lathe

05/07/2013 2:04 PM

Lathes are so handy for making other tools, modifying simple parts in a precise manner. You can turn an armature on an old motor, make bushings, drill out a nut to make a spacer, convert a square drive bit to fit a power drill, etc.

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#51

Re: Del's New Lathe:- Update

05/08/2013 6:20 AM

I contacted a company who refubish spindles and had a chat to the director, he was great and said he'd try to do it at a sensible price as I was a private individual.
It's nice to make contact with people who go the extra mile for the little guy.
All too rare in todays world. I'll post pics when it's done.

By contrast, we wanted a supplier to make a part using standard part A with the spring from standard part B, reasonable volumes at 25k per year... not interested!

I've found that it's nice to be nice, and I'm too old to be grumpy (all the time )
Favours often come back several fold, (ok we all meet the odd grinch who throws it back in your face).
Del

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Del's New Lathe:- Update

05/08/2013 7:57 AM

Probably the wise choice since you mentioned you had limited skills and experience in metal. True it was not that tough a job but even a small amount of error in size or position can ruin the precision of the finished product.

Nice to see you found some help from what seems a decent person. I ran into a similar deal back in 1990 when I was restoring a Mellotron M-400. Being English I'll bet you know what that is since it was invented by the Bradley Brothers back in the early 60's in England using WWII surplus parts from the sewing industry and some newer customized electrics. I was having a fit trying to find or understand the parts to the thing. But the biggest help came from David Keane who had founded a company called the Mellotron Archives and was determined not to let these odd but wonderful old instruments fade away. And he was enormous help with the original tapes and some great history, and I was able to help him with a set of detailed blue prints of all the parts, including the "British Associated" screw threads. You Brits have a knack for some unusual innovations to be sure. I ended up with a perfectly restored Tron and he was able to find a builder who would build brand new machines exactly like the old one. Later he made some great improvements to the old design and we both made out very well with virtually no money ever changing hands. Nice when things work out that way.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Del's New Lathe:- Update

05/08/2013 11:56 AM

Wow - a real live Mellotron! Big up, Tooly.

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