7 Industry Trends to Think About, New Technology Isn’t One of Them

I think automation is a major trend, and I would classify that as new and evolving technology...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emerging_technologies

Well, I suppose so. I saw the automation trend starting as a little kid when the bank that my Grandfather took me to had photocells that opened the door.

So, well, yeah, but not really seeing it as a new development. I mean, how many years ago was your last operator assisted phone call?

Milo

Aren't your points 1, 2 and 3 redundant because of CNC machines being programmable to function autonomously and doesn't that then mean you should be hiring programmers rather than machine operators?

I'm not in the machining business myself so feel free to refute what I'm assuming, but from what little I know and understand, isn't it true that once programmed, a machine can then deliver finished parts ad infinitum as long as unfinished parts are loaded onto it?

And can't that loading be done by robots?

And doesn't it then follow that the investment in autonomous machines and loading robots pays off by not requiring any skilled machinists but rather by hiring a single programmer who could program all your machines and then leave the machines and robots to make various parts ad infinitum?

I thought that was the state of the industry today and not just a pipe dream for the future.

Please tell me where I'm wrong if my understanding is incorrect.

5Axis Machine Cutting HELMET / DAISHIN SEIKI CORPORATION

Having been a CNC programmer (SmartCAM and MasterCAM) and then both a CNC Programmer and CNC operator (which did their own set-ups, tool setting and Maintenance). In a low part run job shop environment

Its a matter of specialty. No way could I be as efficient as a Full time Machine Operator. I only did it because the Yard was shutting down.

As a CNC Programmer, I could also do the responsibilities of the CNC Machine Operator. But the CNC Operator could not program using the software.

I do know the software came a long ways since then...

I was thinking more of a production process.

Something like say automobile engine manufacturers.

Isn't it cheaper, easier and more efficient for them to maintain consistent tolerances by having one programmer who programs their machines to make crankshafts, cylinder blocks and gearshafts, than have hundreds of machinists all making the stuff to different tolerances?

Isn't that exactly how the Japanese have got themselves to the top of the auto trade from nowhere just a few decades ago?

Thank you for the reference to Deming.

The following is a paragraph from Wikipedia about him and it implies to me that the Japanese adoption of his theories resulted in better quality parts .... hence their holding of the top postion in auto manufacturing now.

Deming's teachings and philosophy are clearly illustrated by examining the results they produced after they were adopted by Japanese industry, as the following example shows. Ford Motor Company was simultaneously manufacturing a car model with transmissions made in Japan and the United States. Soon after the car model was on the market^[when?], Ford customers were requesting the model with Japanese transmissions over the US-made transmissions, and they were willing to wait for the Japanese model. As both transmissions were made to the same specifications, Ford engineers could not understand the customer preference for the model with Japanese transmissions. Finally, Ford engineers decided to take apart the two different transmissions. The American-made car parts were all within specified tolerance levels. However, the Japanese car parts were virtually identical to each other, and much closer to the nominal values for the parts—e.g., if a part was supposed to be one foot long, plus or minus 1/8 of an inch—then the Japanese parts were all within 1/16 of an inch, less variation. This made the Japanese cars run more smoothly and customers experienced fewer problems.^[9]

It gets quite indepth, about the quality from Japan. The company I work for (Shipyard) set up a college courses in SPC where I was elected to take.

And as it was explained, Quality is where everyone takes part. On the assembly line for example, each employee was responsibly for quality, and each employ had the power to shut the assembly line down if quality went outside of quality specs.

We had also covered Motorola, the quality was so high, as I recall in the 80's, that rejection was none existent.

The Japanese also made mistakes.... When touring the U.S. steel making plants, they were horrified at the dirty conditions... When they returned to Japan, they were confident that they could produce quality 'cleaner' steel than the U.S. did... and they were right.

Problems didn't show up until the 70's, when all their cars exported to the United States rusted prematurely in the northern parts of the States. Turned out, the lower quality 'dirty' steel the U.S. made, was more durable against oxidation.

One of the biggest problems facing all industries today is the "university educated idiot", these are people who have a degree in something and think that it really matters in the real world. Most trades take longer to qualify than a degree to obtain, the theory is basically the same but a trade also requires real world hands-on experience in a variety of situations. Someone who refines their knowledge by further study after gaining a trade knows a lot more about the job and related jobs/trades than anyone with just book learning. They will in a machining environment know how to deal with different materials and material treatment. How to instantly recognise or 'feel' when things aren't right and make corrections. Computer programs are a very long way from the ability to do that. Nobody with book learning can or ever will be able to do that.

Maybe in a bulk manufacturing situation multiple machines can be programed to do the bulk of the work but for jobbing work and oddball stuff you just can't beat an experienced skilled human at the controls. Experience being the most important factor.

" Computer programs are a very long way from the ability to do that. "

Well what are CNC machines for then, and why are sold in such great numbers to all the auto manufacturers all over the world at such great cost?

Running the program is the easy part. Setting up the machine and tooling is the hardest and most time consuming part.

Could be. That all depends on how the programmer programmed the machine. I've been a CNC programmer for over 30 years and I've see a lot of miss-application of good machines. When I program a machine, I load the tool chain with all kinds of tools for all kinds of jobs I expect to do. The operator only changes tools when they dull or break. I've run up to 16 different parts on one machine with only the parts in the 150 tool locations in the machine.

then I go to the job shop down the road, where the old guy uses his CNC machine, like a manual machine. He completely strips the machine to brand new condition and re-sets it up for every job. Clearly he doesn't understand how to make money in his shop.

Tooling is minor, if you never pushed the limits of the capability of the machine. especially when you use off the shelf standard tooling,

First off, you have to know the machine, actual running the machine is the best way to familiarize yourself..

What's time consuming isn't the tooling. It's the jigs and fixturing that's time consuming, and that includes making them.

Most of our contracts were with the Navy. Specialized tooling, jigs and and fixtures with one-offs.

Our equipment manufacturer even used us for factory tours (if it didn't impinge on security with naval contracts). You may ask, "What did we get out of that?"... access to machine parameters that we can then use in our G-Code programs. whether hand written macros, or CAM software post-processors.

Experiential learning in a craft is far different than Book learning or University learning.

When an experienced craftsman goes back to university for furthering education, fast en your seat belts, because they will absolutely destroy a book learning only professor with their third or fourth "WHY?" or "HOW?"

Milo

lol... back in the 90's, I took a class for the CAM software I was using at the time (SmartCAM, now defunct I believe)... the instructor never had practical any experience except classroom training.

He started the first project out wrong... wrong.... how did I know... I actually MADE the same mistake when at work I took my program out on the shop floor to the machine to run.

I corrected him,... at first he didn't realize what I was talking about until I demonstrated it in a demonstration simulation. Graphically on the screen it look like there wasn't any problems.... But when you looked at and read through block by block the actual 'G' code it generated, it was doing all kinds of funky chit and was crashing.... Basically the problem was when there was (3) involute surfaces converging to a point.

He told me, at my level this class would not help me. and he advised me to drop the class.... Still don't know if he was insulted or just looking after my best interested... ...I feel I insulted him.

The instructor could have used me as a resource which supports your argument.

Experiential learning in a craft is far different than Book learning or University learning.

When an experienced craftsman goes back to university for furthering education, fast en your seat belts, because they will absolutely destroy a book learning only professor with their third or fourth "WHY?" or "HOW?"

The school later did contact me for an instructor position to teach CNC Programming using CAM software.... unfortunately I had to declined for (2) reasons

1.) I already had a job doing 45-50 hours a week on top of doing consulting at 10-15 hours a week.

2.) they could not come close for compensation.

At least that what I tell people...

But I have to say,... If there was a 36 hour day instead of a 24 hour day... I probably would have took it for one reason... I really enjoyed doing the work.

The schools really want to pay you in prestige rather than cash for your craft knowledge.

I do feel that I am donating to the craft with my teaching and mentoring- it is more than just about the dollars- and the time consumed.

But it "ought" to pay a wee bit more, You would think.

Thanks for the conversation.

Milo

I take a night class Proto-type lab (It's basically Machine Shop) at the local Technical college. I've Signing up for it 4 times a year,... and they hold it about have as many because of lack of students or it interferes with the college program courses are filled and is needed.

I talked to the instructor about this very same issue,... he's nice guy and he really runs a tight ship, yet very accommodating to everyone's needs... have to give him credit for his extreme patience.

The pay is not close to where it should be for his position, but he's basically doing it because he likes it and the interaction with the people taking it... Each has some pretty interesting projects, and it doesn't interfere with his day job.

Yes,... that's why its called a skilled trade.

And a seasoned operator understands the slight nuances (temperament or personality) of each of the machines they are operating and makes the adjustments and compensate to those nuances.

And these 'good' machinists... look at the machine tools they are operating as an extension of themselves.

Tool wear, edge buildup and chips can all be programmed out, so where is the problem, I still haven't heard anything that prevents the theory meeting reality.

Ad infinitum- if only that were so.

Then how are so many autonomous CNC machines sold to so many smart auto and aviation manufacturers all over the world if they can't actually make parts ad infinitum?

Making parts ad infinitum is precisely their selling point isn't it - otherwise what is the point of all that extra expense?

We're not talking autonomous cars here, where there are masses of unforeseen and constantly variable possibilities, we're talking about a tightly controlled environment where everything can be foreseen and factored in.

And if you find out by practice that there was something you didn't factor in, then adjust the program till it's 100% perfect.

Surely this isn't rocket science in 2017 is it?

I’m not for or against, but there are issues that occur that displays the pro or cons of a didicated skilled machinist. And of course it’s for the low run job shop.

I’ve operated machines where the machine would develop a resonance vibration using a certain type of tool when run at the recommended rpm and/or travel, only by changing the rpm and/or speed does the vibration drops away.

while an identical machine, does not.

only a operate whose is experienced that executes the correction adjustments.

You haven't convinced me.

That vibration's source you mentioned could be found and rectified if someone decided or wanted to do it, and tuning it out is just a temporary fix which will have to be addressed sooner or later, whatever it is.

And is it so absurd to think a programmer could also be a highly skilled machinist?

If I were responsible for Toyota's or Boeing's hiring's that's who I'd be looking to hire and I'd lay money to say that's who actually gets hired at those places to set up their machines to run ad infinitum.

That's fine,... as my first sentence tried to convey... Each company has its own unique process that is developed around not only their resources but their own internal culture with in the company.

To put it as an analogy,... Its like when you buy your CNC software... it actually comes generic (like the post processors ^{it may have different posts for the different controllers such as FANUC, Mitsubishi ect..., but its still generic}) and the company then customizes it to meet their own needs.

Well, it is not about I'm right and you're wrong.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that the programmer could also be skilled machinist. but typically people with valuable skills gravitate to work that reflects their "highest and best use." Its both their preference, and often economically reinforced.

Your comment "...if someone found it" is precisely my point, this sort of thing happens in real time every day on every machine. change a batch of material, and often adjustments to the process need to be made. The output is not determined by the CNC, but by many factors in the process. The CNC just minimizes the variation and maximizes the precision. Think of the CNC as an instrument. In the hands of an expert it will make beautiful ... parts. The operator is key to the process performance.

Thanks for the engaging conversation.

Milo

Thank you for sharing good information..