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Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/07/2015 9:09 PM
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#1

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/07/2015 9:36 PM

Russian shuttle

compare

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#2
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/07/2015 9:56 PM

Interesting about the simularities, people thought that the Russians stole plans. But in reality, the finish design was design and tested separately by both the united states and the USSR but both came to the same conclusion for the final design.

I personally experienced that this can happen, but not on such a grand scale.

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#3
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/07/2015 10:37 PM

"Nov. 4, 1997 - When U.S. space shuttles started linking up with Russia's Mir space station in 1995, both sides owed a small debt to the old Soviet secret police, the KGB. According to documents obtained by NBC News, it was the KGB that successfully stole the U.S. shuttle design in the '70s and '80s.

That theft permitted the Soviet Union to build its own carbon copy of the U.S. system, called the Buran, thus unintentionally laying the groundwork for the compatibility between the U.S. and Russian systems..."

nbcnews/how-soviets-stole-space-shuttle/

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#5
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 7:06 AM

I stand corrected...

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#20
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/16/2015 12:46 PM

a reference to nbc?

Read this from Gerhard Himmelman, closer to first hand

Buran was the more advanced system. However, we should not confuse capabilities and features with technological advancement.
Buran had greater capabilities than the American shuttle. It could:

  • lift a heavier cargo
  • transport more people
  • attain higher orbits

However, by itself, capability says little or nothing about advancement. The B-52 bomber has a longer range, higher top speed, and can carry a bigger load than the B-2 stealth bomber built nearly forty years later, but there's no question that the B-2 is more advanced.
Buran had noteworthy features that the American shuttle did not:

  • It was a fully re-usable system (as the American shuttle was intended to be before budget cuts compromised the decision)
  • The core booster (Energia) could also be used to launch payloads other than Buran (a design strategy considered by NASA but rejected early in the program).
  • It could be processed and transported horizontally, leading to faster processing and rollout.
  • It was equipped with turbojets to make powered, better controlled landings (also originally a feature of the American shuttle, but rejected early on).

However, these are design decisions and trade-offs that have little or nothing to do with advancement. If NASA had chosen to prioritise these features, there was no technical reason that these would not have been possible for the American shuttle.
So to address the actual question, Buran was more technologically advanced in these areas:

  • Autonomous landing system (probably not feasible for NASA with 1976 technology, it was eventually added to the American shuttle in 2006 in time for STS-121, but never actually used. During development, the American system was called the Autonomous Orbiter Rapid Prototype (AORP), later the Remote Control Orbiter (RCO) system)
  • More efficient thermal protection system, leading to lower re-entry temperatures.
  • Significantly more advanced main engines. Soviet engineers had much greater experience with large, liquid-fuelled engines than American firms in the mid 1970s, by which time the US had focused on solid rockets for almost all new engine designs. In 1999, NASA and Rocketdyne (the manufacturer of the American shuttle's main engines-SSMEs) studied Buran's RD-0120 main engines to improve their own. By incorporating the RD-0120 nozzle design into the SSME, NASA and Rocketdyne believed they would have had an engine that was simpler, cheaper to produce and operate, more robust, and faster and easier to manufacture. However, with the cost of these changes estimated at over $130 million and the end of the shuttle's lifespan not too distant, the changes were never made. The RD-0120 turbopump design was outside the experience of US engineering even then.

Finally, to address Jan's point, we must not confuse the collapse of an economic and political system with a lack of technological advancement by that system while it was still functional. The Buran program ran out of money and stopped. This says nothing about the validity of the design or its comparative merits, any more than the early cancellation of the Apollo program says anything about Apollo's technology.
Buran performed flawlessly on its one-and-only trip into space. While there would no doubt have been teething troubles bringing the system to its full operational capability (just as there were with the American shuttle), there is absolutely no reason to think that the system itself was "never viable". And of course, even if that were the case, it would say little or nothing about technological advancement, which was the subject of this question.

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#21
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/16/2015 1:37 PM

I had understood, that it was only the outside configuration that each (the US and USSR) had design it separately, and that was the reason the outside geometry came out looking very similar due to each coming to the same conclusions, (aerodynamically speaking).

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#7
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 7:11 AM

Far too much similarity to reach the same conclusions. Russians have stolen US/European secrets for decades. The copying of Concorde by the Russians was well documented by the French. An employee at Sud-Ouest Aviation was caught red handed with the drawings. "Sergei Fabiew went undetected for 15 years and supplied the soviets with thousands of sensitive documents." There's plenty more of that, if you are interested. They even had the audacity to rush it into service before it was ready just to beat the West. And it was a complete flop. Buran seems to have taken the same path.

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#10
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 9:26 AM

I think we call that Karma.

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#18
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/10/2015 3:33 PM

The spying even went more crasy than a 007 film could be scripted: The french secret services figuered it out and discovered who it was. They reorganised the teams so that this man came in a side track on the design, and let them work on principles that have proven before to be a dead end. They didn't had a clue they were busted. Due this the soviets never achieved to make their Concorde airworthy.

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#19
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/12/2015 1:27 PM

Yes, I remember that. The Soviets were fed with false information for years. Karma!

I also remember a certain rotten, traitorous newspaper (The Manchester Guardian) stating around 1971, that the Tu-144 was "more advanced" than Concorde because it was powered by turbofans rather than turbojets. Written by a technically illiterate "journalist" that was unaware that turbofans had to use continuous afterburning to sustain Mach 2, with consequent excessive fuel consumption, reducing it's range to about 1/3 of Concorde's.

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#4

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/07/2015 10:46 PM

I've seen the Air and Space Museums both in Washington DC and Seattle; this is every bit as intriguing.

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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But Whats Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 7:07 AM

That's says a lot, I enjoyed the Museum in D.C.

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#8

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 8:52 AM

Its a shame to see that much effort, time, design and materials go to waste.

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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 9:12 AM

imitation is the best form of flattery

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#11
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 11:41 AM

Sincerest.

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#13
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 10:47 PM

If it was a movie with Bruce Willis, he would have had one of them running and on a makeshift launch pad hours after finding them.

On the serious side - absolutely amazing!

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#12

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/08/2015 10:42 PM

I bet that if I knew Russian, I'd dig up one of their news articles to state that the US copied.

My thoughts are that the US is more likely to steal and claim as theirs eg N. Tesla.

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#15
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/09/2015 7:00 AM

everyone stole from Tesla or he gave it away.

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#14

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/09/2015 12:48 AM

AMAZING!!!!

probably Elon might find this interesting to complete.

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#16

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/09/2015 8:43 AM

What is even if not more impressive as the building "contents" is the engineering that went into the actual building itself and all the specialty equipment used to make the shuttles. Unless the actual shuttle overall design was complete or very close to it, imagine intricacies of all the platforms and ancillary equipment to ensure they were at the correct elevation or adjustable, and by how much!!

Ordinary people may think that a building is just a building, but those of us who have been involved in their design and construction, know differently.

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#17
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

12/09/2015 12:29 PM

I see three museums:

  • The space craft (plural)
  • Cranes and lifting hardware -- spreaders, etc.
  • Work platforms

Great stuff! Too bad there is no market to justify maintenance.

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#22

Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

01/27/2016 1:57 AM

I had the privilege of working with a Russian immigrant who worked on the Buran project.

I only found this out shortly before my retirement, when I asked him where he learned so much about cryogenics, and their effects on different materials of construction.

I hope that his e-mail address hasn't changed, so I can send him a copy of the article linked to by Usbort and the comments noted by dvmdsc.

I wish that I had been aware of this information while we were co-workers, lunch times would have been much more interesting and educational.

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#23
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

01/27/2016 7:48 AM

Funny about these Russian immigrants....

I designed process equipment for the dairy industry, At a large dairy organization with plants across the United States, I work with a Project engineer who was Russian. After work a group of us went out, (He loved his martini's) and he was talking that he immigrated to the States in the late 70's early 80's.

He was a Weapons Engineer, worked on Russian ICMB's but he couldn't get work in his field here because of security, so he became an engineer at a Cheese plant.

I told him, I can see the connection.

(Btw, I went home early that night, and at 2:30 in the morning I got a call to pick him up at the cop shop. There a story line behind that, but I would bore you)

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#24
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Re: Man Noticed This Abandoned Hangar But What's Inside Caught Him By Surprise

01/28/2016 1:13 AM

My former co-worker responded to my e-mail and informed me that although he had been to the Cosmodrone on numerous occasions the hangar was off-limits to all but certain personnel.

Despite the dirt and bird droppings, he enjoyed seeing the pictures.

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