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Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/19/2017 5:56 AM
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#1

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 8:46 AM

Could we make this compulsory reading for all Australian politicians?

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#2

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 10:12 AM

Just like the Brits to quit and give up, just when we Texans have solved coal for all future generations to enjoy!

Have none of you gentlemen heard of the Allam cycle turbines?

Closed Brayton Super-critical carbon dioxide with full capture and sequestration of the excess product CO2 (for the environmentally sensitive folks). We are not telling anyone what to do with the CO2, but they could grow tomatoes, use up some hydrogen and convert this to chemical feed-stocks, turn it back into liquid transportable fuel (using only the vast renewable energy reserves of Britain for this).

Last time I checked coal is not dead yet, and neither is Britain, although I have my doubts at times.

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#3

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 10:53 AM

In the US, there are coal-generating plants. I do not know currently, but in recent years they could not afford to run them. It's a lot cheaper to buy electricity off the grid from natural gas generated plants.

Also - and rather unfortunately with the slump in our employment - coal is being revitalized to reduce unemployment, so much so that, recently, the US began exporting coal.

Between coal and other renewable/green energy is a political football where we have to find that sweet spot we can move on to cleaner energies.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 11:56 AM

Phoenix - did you read my touting of the new Allam cycle - this is being built, and right before the big O left office, the EPA was holding up the permitting (sounds about right when progress is involved). I wonder if Pruitt is going to turn this puppy loose? He should, it could totally lower the cost of base load electricity (not just one unit, but many units) in Central and East Texas. That is a big deal, because the price of bought power impacts on refining costs at least to some extent (where some of the plants may not rely upon their own generation capacity to meet internal demand).

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#5
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 12:05 PM

no I didn't, it does sound interesting, so I looked into it... One thing I like to add, what people already know, is not all coal is alike.

The coal industry it seems would benefit with the development of Allam cycle turbines. Like the diary industry dairy farmers have Check-Off on their milk checks for marketing and R&D. Its pennies for each individual farmer, but the results add up when theirs power in numbers.

I like to read more of it when I get home, maybe we'll see more of it.

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#6
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 12:18 PM

There is also a version (the first machine built) that runs off pure compressed oxygen and natural gas, but in that version there are three products beyond the electric power generated:

(1) food grade pipeline quantities of CO2

(2) very pure water (not ultra-pure, but it is no step to get there with the know-how).

(3) smaller than typical amounts of waste heat to dissipate or utilize for district heating as a co-generation site - this owing to the very high cycle efficiency of the closed supercritical carbon dioxide Brayton cycle employed.

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#8
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 7:37 PM

There could soon be a new market for buggy whips (for a different purpose, of course) that could bring back many jobs, just like coal mining will do, as soon as you get rid of those pesky machines that have taken jobs away from our good ole boys.

The Ballad of John Henry - YouTube

The days of big coal and post WWII prosperity are over. And the big O didn't do it. Progress did.

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#9
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 8:14 PM

Coal,...It's a temporary fix to put bread on the table, until coal is replaced... that's all.

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#11
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 8:21 PM

It won't put much bread on human coal miner's tables. The bread will go the the mining machine manufacturer's and coal's management.

Robotics, driverless tech are taking over mining jobs | Computerworld

The practice of sending miners underground is over.

I wish we could "make it so" and all be able to put bread on our tables, and I don't mean those of us here. We're all better off than the poor devils in the rust belt and Appalachia for sure.

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#12
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 8:24 PM

It's temporary and it is bread, even if it isn't much... nothing wrong with automation, coal mining is something most won't do. But automation needs skilled labor to maintain it.

Because of our vast resources, we're 20 years behind Europe when it comes to green energy?,... development and implementation.

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 8:55 AM

That is just your opinion, along with some other stuff. There are facts that totally contradict what you are saying, but I don't have time to play whack a mole with you today.

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#24
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:27 AM

I think the water in Lubbock must have some dumb added to it.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:36 AM

I didn't know you were in Lubbock,.. should have stopped in and say Hey...

as I posted before,... it's only temporary...

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#27
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:39 AM

So, your water is similarly dosed?

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#30
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:43 AM

ground water yes and everything else... especially when the bedrock is at the surface and you have orchards... Fortunately, we pull ours from Lake Michigan... Right Next to the Two Rivers Nuclear plant.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 11:20 AM

So, you glow in the dark?

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#36
In reply to #31

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:15 PM

Nah, only when he gets into a heated discussion.

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#39
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 1:26 PM

How many times do I have to tell you...

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#40
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 1:36 PM

Go ahead, make my day? Feeling lucky?

I turned in the soup nazi to the labor board. Turns out Hitler was on the Labor Board.

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#38
In reply to #31

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 1:23 PM

feel free to bask in my light... my rates are reasonable....

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#34
In reply to #24

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:09 PM

You have water over there in Arizona?

I never drink the stuff here, it tastes like....well...water.

Play nice with the other children OK?

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#19
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 8:56 AM

wrong! Coal is not ever going to be replaced. It is too valuable in too many processes, essentially irreplaceable. Allam cycle use of coal (gasified or not) will expand in the coming decades, and it will be 100% clean tech.

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#23
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:15 AM

If prosperity is over, can we now look forward to future poverty ?

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#33
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:08 PM

You have to learn to eat out around the dogs in the mangers, and leave them to bark.

Future will either be better, or it will not be at all?

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#7

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 6:08 PM

6 Mt per month at peak...haha What's that like 3 wind turbines equivalent....haha give me a break....

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#10
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 8:16 PM

I'm not understanding....

6Mt? Are you missing some zeros?

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 9:07 PM

Britain coal use..

...as you can see from the graph they are currently using less than 1Mt of coal per month....

..."India

As the world’s third largest emitter of greenhouse gases, India pledged as part of the Paris Agreement to reduce its carbon emission intensity (carbon emissions per unit of GDP) by 33 to 35 percent from 2005 levels by 2030.[viii] Also, by 2030, India intends to generate 40 percent of its electricity from non-fossil fuels, including nuclear power and renewable energy. Despite its intent to increase its non-fossil generation to 40 percent, coal is primarily used today and will continue to be used in the future. India has plans to build nearly 370 coal-fired power plants.[ix] Between 2006 and 2016, 139 gigawatts of coal-fired capacity was brought on-line.[x] The planned construction of an additional 178 gigawatts would make it nearly impossible for India to meet its climate promises. By developing all of the planned coal-fired capacity, India would increase its coal generating capacity by 123 percent.[xi]

China

According to Bloomberg, China’s coal-fired generation capacity may increase by as much as 19 percent over the next five years. While the country has canceled some coal-fired capacity due to lack of demand growth, China still plans to increase its coal-fired power plants to almost 1,100 gigawatts, which is three times the coal-fired capacity of the United States...."

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/china-india-will-continue-increase-oil-coal-consumption-paris-agreement-notwithstanding/

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 11:38 PM

For the record nearly 10 billion with a "B" tons of coal are consumed each year worldwide...so if we estimate Britain's use at 15 million tons per year, you can see it's just a drop in the bucket(0.15%).....and in fact continued expansion in just China alone will be many times that...many many times that...many many many times that....Britain has been scaling back coal use for 26 years, now they're going to use the wood chips instead of coal...? I don't see that as very much cleaner burning than coal....Then you have the trash incinerators...

..."Since 2010, the country has more than doubled its capacity for burning residual waste - that is, waste that has not been recycled - up from 6.3 to 13.5 million tons of capacity. An additional 7.9 million tons of capacity has already been contracted to be built in the coming years."...

http://www.dw.com/en/britains-lust-for-burning-trash-sends-recycling-goals-up-in-smoke/a-40094211

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incinerators_in_the_United_Kingdom

The particulate pollution in the UK is a growing problem....

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/15/european-commission-issues-final-warning-to-uk-over-air-pollution-breaches

..."Each year, inhaling particulates causes around 29,000 deaths in the UK, which, on recent evidence, may rise to around 40,000 deaths when also considering nitrogen dioxide exposure

This report, it turns out, combined 29,000 ‘attributable deaths’ from PM2.5 (particulates less than 2.5 micrometers) estimated in a report by the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollution (COMEAP) in 2009, and 23,500 attributable deaths from NO2 (nitrogen dioxide, for which diesel engines are particularly blamed) from a report from the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in 2015. Naively adding these two numbers comes to 29,000 + 23,500 = 52,500. Not 40,000.

But COMEAP said in 2015 that “adding the results, would give an overestimate of the combined effects of the two pollutants”, as studies show that the combined effect is not that much greater than either alone. Since COMEAP are still carrying out their analysis of the degree of overlap, the RCP report had to make a judgement call and simply declared “this report adopts a combined estimate of around 40,000 deaths annually”, possibly because 40,000 is a nice round figure that lies roughly half way between 29,000 and 52,500. (We note that DEFRA assumed the overlap was up to a third of the NO2 deaths, and so quoted a combined range of 44,750–52,500.)"...

https://wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk/news/does-air-pollution-kill-40000-people-each-year-uk

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#17
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 7:07 AM

yes, its not really much of a accomplishment to eliminate coal...we generate at this one facility about 10,000 ton of charcoal, which is nothing,... until our outlet (Coal Burning Generating plant) stops burning coal for a while because they can buy it cheaper off the grid.

And just like that, you have a value added product turns into a liability....

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#21
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 9:01 AM

It is really, really saying something when a coal burner shuts down to buy cheaper electric power from the grid. There used to be nothing cheaper ever than burning "dirt".

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#29
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:39 AM

blame fracking.... I have to add, the newer coal generating plants are more efficient...

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#20
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 8:58 AM

The chart shows production in millions of short tons, wanna rephrase that?

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#14

Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 9:53 PM

you can thank American facking for all the nat gas as well as for your particulate reductions

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#16
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/19/2017 11:50 PM
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#22
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 9:02 AM

Not everyone gets to live in sunny Florida, so have some mercy on the rest of folks that live where appendages can freeze and fall off during a blue norther.

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#25
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:31 AM

The best part about Florida is the sunny beaches, the hotties that walk on them and the free cup of orange/grapefruit juice they give you at the welcome center.

On the other hand,

The worst part about Florida is the abundance of four legged reptilian creatures that will walk into your house and eat you, the almost every other snake is deadly poisonous and most of the State is barely 100 feet above sea level so when the big hurricane arrives darn near every year, more than 50% of everything gets wiped out.

Other than that, it's a great place to live.

p.s. I forgot to mention the palmetto bugs, spiders as big as your hand and flying bugs the size of small birds.

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#28
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 10:39 AM

I thought it was bad in Wisconsin,... when your golfing and you almost walk into a Alligator Snapping turtle, with its head sticking up looking at you and yapper open...

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#32
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:01 PM

Ah we used to catch alligators for fun when I was kid....they're hardly vicious animals....used to catch snakes too, but we knew enough to stay away from diamondbacks and cottonmouths....You don't see snakes anymore, other than garden snakes, you have to go out in the everglades, civilization has all but wiped them out....The main problem with Florida used to be mosquitos and flooding, but they have beaten them back to just an occasional minor annoyance now ....

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#37
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:24 PM

Oh and sunburn, sunburn used to be a problem, but now with sunblock, well that's only an issue if you are drunk on Spring Break....haha

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#35
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/20/2017 12:12 PM

We don't have any of that in Texas. We do have plenty sunsa beeches though.

Let me back up for a second, hold the phone, cotton spider on the ceiling, alligator in the kiddie pool, rattlesnake in the bedroom, cotton-mouth in the toilet, copper head in the driveway, and a coral in my cousin's pine tree, oh yeah, did I mention we have snakes? We also have barn rats that can be mistaken for pack animals.

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#43
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/21/2017 8:10 AM

Are you crazy?

The worst part about Florida is the spring breakers that invade once a year along with 50% of the northerners that relocated here to retire (the other 50% are nice).

Another wonderful thing about Florida is that you don't have to bundle up in winter other than maybe for a few days or a few weeks at the most in Jan. or Feb. (at least not here in the Tampa area...even less so further south like Miami or Naples and maybe more so near the northern border like Jacksonville or Gainesville).

I've lived in FL my entire life (minus a 3 years) and have yet to be attacked by a gator or snake or spider. And I didn't spend my childhood in the city, we were in rural Florida and I did my best to emulate Daniel Boone (from the TV show) by spending most of my free time running around in the woods.

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#44
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Re: Britain is about to end its 250-year use of coal for power generation

09/21/2017 8:15 AM

The worst part about Florida is the spring breakers that invade once a year along with 50% of the northerners that relocated here to retire

I like to speak for all of us northerners who stay put... 'thank you'...

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#41

Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/20/2017 5:55 PM

Colorado had a nuclear power plant open in 1979 in Platteville. It was never able to function at full capacity because of safety concerns. It closed down after only 10 years of service. That was sad. After that a coal-fired plant was built in northern Colorado. According to this site, 60% of Colorado's electricity in 2015 came from coal, with natural gas providing the most energy. Wind and solar are increasing, but coal will not go away anytime soon.

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#42

Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/20/2017 8:13 PM
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#45
In reply to #42

Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 10:08 AM

Cheer up again:

electric bus enduro record over 1000 miles

Looks like all problems have been solved. Brits will be listening to a lot more ZZTop's "Been waitin' for the bus all day".

I think this test was conducted on the light end of the payload scale.

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#46
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 10:29 AM

I never need an excuse to listen to ZZ, I do regularly.

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#47
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 12:05 PM

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#48
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 12:16 PM

Excellent, most excellent!!

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#49
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 12:21 PM

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#50
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 12:29 PM

We still have more than a few of those in Texas.

The smart ones left the bars early in the evening, and still survive to write home about it the next day. Late night stays in bars here seem to correlate with incidence of being the victim of one crime or another.

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#51
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 1:24 PM
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#52
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 1:38 PM

All nice selections, gentlemen. I think they inherited some of the cool from Willie Nelson, but the Blues they got from listening to BB King and his Lucille.

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#53
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Re: Britain is About to End its 250-Year Use of Coal for Power Generation

09/21/2017 3:25 PM
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