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Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 8:16 AM

Hi guys. What ethical standards either by law or regulation worldwide that a manufacturer should be required to release or include manuals and wiring diagrams for machines and electrical devices and equipment? Is there such provisions or is it a mandatory under any laws and standards?

Can I file a lawsuit on a manufacturer not giving me manuals or wiring diagrams of their product or not disclosing it while it is crucially needed to run their device.

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#1

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 8:47 AM

Unless you are paying for a manual, and not receiving it, you have no case....

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 8:55 AM

Quite.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 9:16 AM

Are you that stingy in 2018? PWslaaack?

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 12:08 PM

Generosity in GA clicks, where appropriate, will now pervade 2018.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 9:13 AM

Are you sure about it? Every new equipment should have one. I mean its not actually stated in the contract but a standard protocol should provide one wiring diagram, one users operational manual and one Trouble shooting and maintenance manual.

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#5
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 9:38 AM

Well yes most manufacturers want their customers to have a good experience with the products they sell, which in some cases would include those items you mention, but not in all cases...So it's at the discretion of the manufacturer....Some information may be proprietary, some machines may require factory training and certification, some machines are not meant to be repaired in the field...

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#7
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 10:50 AM

Isn't it a fraudulent statement "some machines are not meant to be repaired in the field." to some device it might be suitable. But, sometimes its just a mere solenoid? Some manufacturer say so, just to monopolise the market of such device. They say its a proprietary, what so special with a simple solenoid just a coil and core stuff. Aren't we engineers trained and schooled to judge and design such.

Who ever originated that proprietary " " thing is sure a scum. Clients will never have a choice considering other service providers on performance basis. Even if manufacturer suck at services they still stick forcing clients to get their services. That is an ideal thing of doing good business Aye?

Oh, its a robbery on broad day light for me.

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#26
In reply to #7

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/08/2018 1:19 AM

It might be unfair for the customer, but in fact, it makes it less risky for enterpreneurs to start companies and create jobs.

The reality with all the planned obsolescense is that customers should buy their products for the warranty time, which can be from a few months for consumer goods, to many years in the industry. Any issues customers could encounter after the warranty period are their own problem.

However, as always, rules are not properly applied. Aparently, if an equipment under warranty breaks due to design issues, many manufacturers work on excuses why the warranty does not apply, making the manufacturer pay for any repair from the beginning.

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#30
In reply to #26

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/16/2018 1:25 AM

Yah, warranty has long been expired in this case. The brand or the company is just playing monopoly stuff.

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#31
In reply to #7

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/16/2018 10:50 AM

Have you run into proprietary screw threads yet?

I recently had someone ask if I could get a 1/4-26NS machine screw and I once worked for an outfit that used 13/16-11NS threads for a clamp screw. Taps were about $350 apiece.

It isn't just electronics.

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#13
In reply to #3

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 12:09 PM

One wouldn't expect that as a user for, say, an ATM cash dispenser, though?

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#15
In reply to #3

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 4:38 PM

Some companies provide hard copy manuals, others require them to be purchased (reduction of paper utilization), and most allow free download of manual from the company website. Did you try that?

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#21
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 9:15 AM

Company where I had worked, one of there product lines was manufacturing Ultrafiltration units base on what they saw in the plants... they sold about three when I was hired, they never had any manual.... and really didn’t understood how they worked... I actually started to design them.... along with writing a manual... the duscussions I had with the owners of the company is that they did not want to give any secrets away... I asked them what secrets?... they couldn't answer that. And I finished writing the manual.

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#28
In reply to #1

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory provisions of Manuals and wiring Diagrams

01/08/2018 9:16 AM

I would tend to agree with you,,, on the other hand, I make a point of not buying any piece of equipment that does not come with a manual(s), both operating and maintenance.

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#6

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 9:53 AM

Hindsight isn't a good way to do business.

Someone didn't do their homework.

Manufacturer's websites have the information.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 10:53 AM

Is it not required on some quality standards like ISO, CE, etc. ?

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#9
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 11:53 AM

Where have you looked for the answer to your question, besides here?

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#11
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 12:01 PM

Yes, probably Lyn. I know some of you here have an experience on this stuff. While some are into manufacturing and assembly of electrical devices. It's a relief to know the legal basis for this issue if there are any existed.

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#10
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 11:58 AM

What is required is a statement in the purchase specification that states "All instruction, operation, calibration, and maintenance manuals shall be included/shipped with each assembly..."; i.e., you are responsible for getting what you paid for.

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#18
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 5:09 AM

That is not correct. In order to get CE certification, without which it is illegal to sell into the European Union, the manufacturer must produce a Technical Construction File (TCF) that has all the information the OP requires and more. In the EU not releasing all or part of the TCF when a customer requires information to maintain or operate the equipment would attract a hefty fine.

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#27
In reply to #18

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/08/2018 1:24 AM

This has been done only in the recent years. Equipment from the beginnig of this century does not have them.

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#19
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Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 5:10 AM

If a manufacturer supplies something like an oven, a burner or a furnace in the EU, Australia or New Zealand it will be required to be made to a legally binding standard. In the EU it would be EN746-2 and in Australia and New Zealand it would be their own equivalent. The provision of complete as built wiring schematics, P&I Diagrams, operators manual, trouble shooting/fault finding guide and a Declaration of incorporation are all required to be provided as part of the contract even if they are not mentioned in the contract. If say an industrial fish fryer is supplied to a frozen food manufacture and he puts a fish preparation station before it with an en-rober & a crumb bath and then puts a cooler & packing line after it the whole production line has to have a declaration of incorporation. To produce the declaration the owner/operator has to have in his possession the complete manual, wiring schematics, P&I diagrams etc to produce the Technical File required before the declaration can be made and CE badge affixed to the plant.

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#14

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 4:11 PM

The standard governing this type of situation is widely known as caveat emptor.

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#16

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/05/2018 10:49 PM

Gut monarch : as an example :

Bonaire Durango model 4500E, 5900E, owners manual. Page 20. Section 2. Sub paragraph f :

The product must be installed by a qualified person ( ME ) in the manner prescribed by local and statutory regulations and to the manufacturers specifications.

Sub paragraph h :

Warranty will not be provided where, in Climate Technologies Pty Ltd opinion :

(Section iv )

An unauthorized person ( You ) has attempted to repair the appliance.

Bonaire does not provide drawings, schematics or otherwise. I have spoken with factory representatives in person and by email.

From what I gathered from my crude understanding of that Aussie gibberish, if you don't know, then you shouldn't touch.

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#17

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 3:26 AM

Each company decides for itself what to provide and which items are deemed user replaceable.

I’ve had a pump which was would not start when bought, but the supplier wanted it back as received and not touched. They sent out replacement straight away so delivery driver picked up the return.

At the other end I’ve worked on an ROV which was DOA, and the phone support talked me through troubleshooting the problem, even though my training on rebuild was not scheduled for another month.

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#20

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 7:19 AM

This is a complicated issue. There is no one right answer. It depends a lot on who the intended customer/target is. Regardless of proprietary/patented items, in the Navy, NOTHING was used without a full tech-manual with all info/specs. There is no way anyone can feel/be confident out at sea in the middle of nowhere without the possibility of fixing unexpected problems. Also, it depends on the pre-purchase agreement between the seller/buyer. If there is none, the default position should be fail-safe; meaning that any lack of info/disclosure should not result in any serious consequences to property/life. Sometime that's limited to only operational info. But, sometimes it has to include the ability to know what to do in case of failure of standard operating procedures.

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#22

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 10:05 AM

It's a "buyer beware" thing. I've learned (the hard way) to research the product for replacement parts availability, manuals, etc. before I purchase.

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#23

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 10:44 AM

In today's world, there is no connection between "ethical standards" and "mandatory provisions" of manuals and schematics.

Prior knowledge of deliverables contracted for is required.

When I worked for an OEM making semi-custom wet process equipment that could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, all deliverables and warranty periods were clearly defined, including the manuals.

I ran the engineering department and it was one of our jobs to approve manuals that went out with each machine. Customer service then kept all equipment manuals on file for the life of the equipment. If someone needed a new copy of the manual, they paid for it.

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#24

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 1:00 PM

There's an additional side to this discussion: Intentional errors and/or omissions that the manufacture has made in manuals, wiring diagrams, etc.

They most definitely do exist, but go try and prove it!

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#25

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/06/2018 9:47 PM

I once owned a stereo receiver that I wanted to modify. It did not come with a wiring diagram, so I called the company and requested one. They told me the public would not be capable of reading a wiring diagram. I told them I was an electronic technician and quite capable of reading a schematic. They conceded and sent me the schematic. I then used it to successfully modify the device. Companies don't have an obligation to furnish schematics or any documentation for consumer goods. Some companies have propriatary circuitry that they don't want their competitors to know, but that can be protected by enclosing such information within a "black box".

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#29

Re: Ethical Standards on Mandatory Provisions of Manuals and Wiring Diagrams

01/08/2018 11:23 AM

Diagrams and published materials can fall into two categories, copyrighted material or proprietary information. Neither is required to be given to you because you bought the product.

The manufacturer IS required to give you whatever is necessary to safely use the product in the US to meet the federal consumer product safety standards. That could be as little as a youtube video or a scrap of paper in unintelligible Engrish and ranging up to a 356 page booklet with five lines of operating instructions and 355.9 pages of cautions and warnings. In the EU and some other areas there is an additional standard of "fitness for use". If the product doesn't do the job, you have a basis for claim in those localities.

The easiest solution is, if you are a person with impaired ethical standards, to injure, maim or kill someone with the equipment while following the current operating instructions and sue the pants off the manufacturer (The "We need another Timmie" approach). Otherwise, ask for what you want and if they say no, then return the equipment or give it bad Yelp reviews.

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