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Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/04/2008 11:19 AM

I drive an '02 Jeep Wrangler w/4.0L inline 6, 54,000mi. It takes 6 quarts of oil. Since I got it, I've used nothing but Mobil 1, with a quart of Slick 50. I change the oil twice a year, at about 4000 to 5000 miles. I drive about 9000 miles a year, about 500 of that is off-road (4 season). I've had absolutely no problems with this truck. I really keep it up, still looks new.

I've Goggled and wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

I still don't know what's the hype.

So, the question, Am I a chump for spending almost 4 times as much for my motor oil?

1 of 2 answers:

Bricktop = chump

Bricktop = not chump

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#1

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/04/2008 11:48 AM

My 89 Toyota SR5 Pickup has 125,000 miles on it and I started using Molil 1 at 85,000 miles. I only noticed a slight inrease in mileage. I still have the truck and would not hesitate to take it to California tomorrow and I live in Indiana.

BTW, I change oil every 10-15,000 miles since 1970 when I was driving 30,000 miles a year in a sales job. Had 7 vehichles that went over ioo,ooo miles with no problems and one I sold had the mileage turned back to 35,000 as reported by a potential buyer who thought it was a great looking and running station wagon.

I believe the oil change interval given by the oil companies is a money making deal not a necessary thing.

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 1:21 AM

Just be sure you get that "piccup" out of California before you have to smog test it.

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#2

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/04/2008 2:54 PM

I am not an oil scientist or even an engineer but simply a mechanic with about 35 years experience under my belt (my wife calls it a spare tire). From what I've seen over the years there are a number of observations that may or may not bear out as fact.

The type of oil you use has more to do with whether you live on the east or west coast. I'm not sure where the dividing line is but the eastern environment seems to be more acidic while the west is more alkali.

Eastern oils such as Penzoil and Quaker State seem to work better in the east whereas Havoline or Valvoline seem to work better in the west. It is my understanding that the former are parafin based while the latter are asphalt based. The synthetic oils then (depending on how much is synthetic) seem to be immune to the sludge buildup that occurs with standard oils.

When I worked in Tucson as an apprentice mechanic I had a customer that never changed his oil in the normal sense. Instead I was to change his filter and add 1 quart of oil except every third time when he required a quart of tranny fluid instead of the oil. His old Caddy had over 150,000 miles and never had the heads off. Any time I pulled the dipstick the oil looked clear and clean.

The oil change mileage frequency is a mean arrived at by statistics gathered by the car companies to help assure thier vehicles last through the waranty period and then fudged in thier favor.

A vehicle that is driven less frequently and/or shorter distances actually needs more frequent changes due to sludge and acid buildup in the crankcase. The oil needs to get hot enough to allow water and other compounds to vaporize and thence to be burned through the combustion process (PCV).

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#3

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/04/2008 11:08 PM

The answer is NO CHUMP.

I have a 2003 Jeep Rubicon with 49,000 miles. I use Royal Purple oil. In the desert out here we can trail in temps that vary from 25*f to 128*f with a lot of underhood heat and heavy loads on rocks and hills. Great oil is the cheapest insurance you can buy when you are 90 miles from the nearest dirt road.

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#4

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 12:13 AM

Synthetic motor oil, yes; Slick 50, NO!, HELL,NO!, and let's not forget NO 'EFFING WAY!!!!!!!

There are numerous documented engine failures from PTFE additive in the records of the FAA, and BMW stated that if you use any PTFE additive, you just voided the warranty, and the rebuild's on you!

Let's face it. If the FAA bans the PTFE additives from aircraft engine oil - and when a aircraft engine craps out, you AREN'T walking home! - that's all I need to hear!

There were SO MANY problems that DuPont will not sell Teflon as a additive to engine lubricants, so that should be a big red flag, too.

Use that crap at your own risk, but synthetic oil's a good thing, as long as your milage is low.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 1:44 AM

There is a huge difference between aircraft engine operation conditions and a jeep wrangler. Stay in context and your perspective may better reflect upon you.

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#14
In reply to #7

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:07 AM

I totally disagree with that comment, sorry!

Such information as to the fact that Teflon is not allowed in aircraft engines for example, is a very strong pointer to the correct direction to take.......the testing has been done at a much higher level than ordinary cars. Plan for the worst scenario.

Engines are engines are engines.....as any Engineer knows. I scorn the use of any additives, I only use good quality synthetic oil......

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#19
In reply to #14

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:27 AM

GA for you as I totally agree.

If it isn't good enough for them, I don't want it either

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#55
In reply to #14

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:17 PM

Yes PTFE should not be used in aircraft engines for a variety of reasons centered around temps, materials and clearances/tolerances, etc.,an that PTFE vaporizes at about 350°F. Upper cylinder protection of this additive is a pipe dream though will not inhibit the engine oil from wetting the cylinder wall.

The newer engines from the retooled production lines need a 100%synthetic oil to perform properly and to benefit from the closer tolerances enabling longer service life.

As a rule I do not advise use of additives either...

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 7:41 AM

Absolutely correct. PTFE (teflon) burns @ 220' F and friction will carbonize the mass against the cylinder walls and bearing assemblies.

Other additive products utilize 'mineral' slip properties. These are extracted from the oil (and grease) refining process and adding them back into ones' oil defeats the purpose. Some sales techniques will be convincing when friction is applied and measured to specific hardened steels. This works for a short period of time but it will smooth out the cylinder walls on a molecular level making it impossible for the oil to stick.

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#13
In reply to #4

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:03 AM

Synthetic is always good.

I have used it in around 7 cars over 20 years, never had to replace an engine or part of and some engines went over 400,000 KMs and still ran better than new....

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#6

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 1:37 AM

Bricktop,

Not = chump but not as cost effective as possible. Because you don't use a most efficient filter you are wasting the potential of the pure synthetic properties.

My Dodge diesel with 310000 miles using pure synthetic + amsoil filtration, 9 qt and 15000 service interval; only change filter + add one qt.

Get a good oil filter, amsoil is about the best you'll find, change filter about every 6000-7000 miles and add amount synthetic to top off lubricant. With savings get an analysis of lubricant, you may be able to extent service intervals significantly; about 17000 -22000 miles for a complete crankcase lube replacement.

Slick fifty is great for crank shaft bearings and for gear boxes but doesn't fair well for upper cylinder protection. Suggest upgrade to product "pro tech" having the trademark "PTFE" it will provide upper cylinder protection; is in the slick fifty advanced product line.

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#8

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 2:47 AM

Dude! When I was a kid, my dad was a mechanic, and he made us do all our own repairs. In addition, we did valve jobs for extra cash. So, I have seen my share of heads!!!

Anyway, I purchased a used Corvette. Under the engine hood was a big sticker from the factory, "Use Mobil 1 only!" One day, I decided to add a little Mobil 1. So I unscrewed the filler cap on the valve cover (this is a big hole). Looking down into the filler hole, I could see the top of the head. Instead of seeing brown gunk covering the top of the head, I saw perfectly, clean metal!!! As I said I've done a lot of valve jobs and have never seen any head that clean.

As far as I'm concerned, it's liquid miracle in a bottle! When I purchased my 2003 Acura 3.2 CL Type S, the first thing I did was take it to a lube shop and have them convert it over to synthetic. I won't run anything else!

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#15
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:09 AM

My thoughts entirely. Good Post.

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#9

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 3:35 AM

I guess I'll put my two cents in as well..

I bought mama this brand New Model Lincoln LS in 1999, it was a 2000 year model, right after Ford bought Jaguar I guess, (somebody correct me on the year), and we loved that Lincoln LS/Jaguar S series so much, we are still driving it.. I have always used Mobil 1 since day one, and we never use a drop, or burn a drop.. Now some dummy at the Ford place puts in regular old ford oil.. Wonder if the thing will blow..

Damn I still have the original battery in this thing...

Still in Love with the LS even though Ford quit making it

Donald

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#48
In reply to #9

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 6:22 PM

Just drop the regular old ford oil and continue with your usual habits...

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#10

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 3:38 AM

I use Mobil 1 in my Harley. The first thing I noticed was that the oil temperature stays much lower, about 10 to 20 deg C on a maximum of about 100 deg C in hot summer.

The means I measure this with is an oil dipstick equipped with digital thermometer which is not all that accurate but suffices to prove the difference.

With regards to slick50 I can only say that when I still lived in Breda, Netherlands, I used to spend a lot of time with a locally well known motorcycle racer called Jack Walvoort who also ran the local Honda main dealer motorcycle shop. He tested this stuff in his race Honda and as the engine had to come apart after each season anyway, they thought it would not be that big a deal. They were wrong, after the first race they had untold problems with erratic running and noises. They swapped engine for the rest of the season and completely dismantled the offensive object. They found a creamy white semi-sticky sludge that pulled little wires between the gears when turned around. It would not set on any of the surfaces and just mixed in with the oil making some suspension. The oil did not feel like before when rubbed between your fingers but more a gel like cream.

Needless to say that after that they never used the stuff and refused to sell it in his shop. After I saw that I am also not a great fan anymore.

Mobil 1 is ace

Slick 50 a NONO

Bricktop is not a chump.

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#16
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:11 AM

Good Post.

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#17
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:14 AM

I believe that this could be demonstrating the properties of Synthetic in a new way for me.

As the synthetic oil lubricates better, there is therefore less metal to metal friction, which of course generates less heat!!!

WOW!! Very interesting that the difference is so marked!!!

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#18
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 8:26 AM

Yes at first I thought I was seeing spooks but it was true. Before synthetic the engine oil could reach 110 to 115 Deg C on a hot day and when coasting around in a parade or heavy city traffic. No it rarely reaches 100 Deg C. Last summer when it was rather warm around here, finally global warming shows up and proves the scientists wrong, I got 105 Deg C out of it but that made me look at it twice as I did not expect it anymore.

Very handy a thermometer on your dip stick

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:05 AM

I agree, what did you use as a sensor (oil and temperature sensitive it cannot be!!)and how did you run the cable up it? Photos would be really great.

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:31 AM

It is a bought item which is self contained with a battery and screen in the cap.

Thermocouple runs down the stick into the oil, I reckon it is just some thermister type or thermocouple, not sure.

Battery is a 20 mm flat cell like those in organisers.

A friend had bought it from Harley Davidson and paid loads of money for it as they are too expensive. He then changed gear box and could not use it anymore so I got it for a friendly price.

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#28
In reply to #24

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:14 AM

Nice unit.

I had hoped you had made something yourself that we might copy, now it looks like i will have to do it on my own!!!

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#42
In reply to #28

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 2:24 PM

I am sure there is not much to it when looked at. The screen would take some circuitry but that would be all.

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#51
In reply to #10

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 6:43 PM

Slick fifty has it's place but that place is not in high temperature extremes as the product specifications warn.

I have successfully used the products for twenty years.

We tested the Pro Tech 10 in VW powered desert racers and the lead mechanic was amazed. He had just finished a new engine build, poured hot oil through the galleries. Rechecked the torque values put good oil and ran engine about 30 minutes, drop oil and check again. Then we put in the Pro 10, the idle rpm increased 700 rpm in about 20 minutes with the original mixture settings and never fell back again.

The lead mechanic wanted the product in everything after first race disassemble & check wear, then after second race, after third race he put the engine in his chase car.

Different strokes...

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#74
In reply to #10

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/06/2008 6:20 AM

G A 2 U

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#11

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 5:15 AM

Bricktop NOT chump!!!

Old ENGINEer speaking.

Cheers

S.

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#21

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:09 AM

I have a friend that gave me his old S10 pickup. It had about 180,000 on it. He had used Mobil 1 since new. The truck now has 294,000 on it. He had replaced the timing chain before I got it. It has had no other repairs to the engine yet. And the 2.8 engine is not as reliable as the 4.3 engine. I live in south Florida, and the temp is always hot. The area visible inside the valve cover at the oil fill hole is just as stated before, clean. No sludge. I have switched from 5w30 to 15w50. I buy NAPA's own brand of oil, which I believe is manufactured by Valvoline. I chink it is cheap insurance. Good choice on your part.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:20 AM

You wrote:-

I think it is cheap insurance.

You are SOOOO RIGHT!! Nice comment.

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#23

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:29 AM

I have raced cars competitvely for over 20 years.

Every race series I have been in from semi-pro to

club racing, 99% of the cars used MOBIL 1.

There is a reason we all use it in the racing community.

IT WORKS. Nuff said.

As for additives, never used any of the commerically available

additives in 20 years of racing/35 years of driving

and have never blown an engine.

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#25
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:53 AM

I built Porsche race engines (amongst others) and Mobil was our first choice. Lucas Oil has additives that prevent high heat bubbling associated with these types of performance engines. In some cases we would add castor oil to 'lock' in the vapours associated with heat buildup and gassification in the oil.

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#26
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Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 9:59 AM

With all that you have seen in the racing field, do you think that Mobil 1 is a better product, or a better marketed product? And does contingency money play a significant part in the usage? Honest question. I have been happy with the NAPA product, but that is just my use. Thanks for your opinion.

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:49 AM

bobc:

Valid question. Contigency money comes nowhere paying for a race season. Thus individual racers and some teams will use what works. As to what works, see my post above.

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#27

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 10:35 AM

I Have run many km's on many vehicles, have not used any synthetic oils to date.

Not going to knock them, but of my latest 4 vehicles, 3 Chrysler Intrepids 1 3.3L @ 280,000 km's - 1 3.5L @ 245,000 km's - 1 2.7L @ 280,000 km's, and presantly running a Chevy S10 4x4 with 310,000 km's and counting.

All vehicles run in winter/summer climate north of Montreal. Cold starts in winter are hard on a motor.

No engine failures on these vehicules, no synthetic oils used. Maybe I have just been lucky.

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:24 AM

Dave,

I'm guessing that you're pretty fanatical about changing oil and filter regularly.

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#104
In reply to #29

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/11/2008 5:56 PM

No not really, about every 7000 to 10,000 Km's

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#54
In reply to #27

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 10:22 PM

Super,

Cold starts are hard on an engine but not for very long (it warms up quickly). People leaving in warmer climates have more engine trouble than the one living north. But the body of their cars last longer without the winter salty slosh. We have old engines in corroded car bodies, they have good looking car bodies but must replace the engine regularly. Just look at the posts, the south people are amazed to get 100K miles on an engine. I have never repaired an engine until I had to scrap my old cars above 250K Km because the bodies were full of holes. It looks like that it is the same for you.

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#56
In reply to #27

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:25 PM

It is the method to your madness

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#30

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 11:30 AM

A good test for anyone to make for himself, find an old relatively clean frying pan, or just get a sheet of aluminium and bend it up at the sides a bit to stop any possible overflowing.

Place a few drops of normal non synthetic mineral oil on it, and a few inches away, the same amount of full (not partial) synthetic motor oil, any brand.

Put some good heat under the aluminium, by putting it on the cooker for example, heat it up well, watch what happens to both samples, now tell me which one is the best for hot situations particularly turbos!!!!

Once seen, this test convinces anyone who has a hard working motor!!!

The same test made between synthetics, will also give a fair idea of the best quality synthetic to buy. This test I have personally NOT done as I did not want to buy so much oil for just a few drops for the testing (Scots blood!), both the ones I have used came out optically the same....

Some people simply do not want to use synthetic for some inner personal reasons that do not make any real sense... but synthetic, if used correctly, allows you to put up to 4-5 x more mileage per service on it with no problems, thereby saving money and reducing the amount of old oil being put back into the environment.....but only if your new car guarantee allows it.

Some US model cars are NOT allowed to use this oil.......in Europe, there are few modern cars that are fitted with Turbos, that are allowed to use anything else other than synthetic and remember car manufacturers want all the good points on their side......!! Its also called putting your money where your mouth is....

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#105
In reply to #30

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/11/2008 6:19 PM

Andy, I believe your test may be interresting, however engines normally run around 160F. Oil in the sump isn't far off under normal conditions. Start heavy pulling or racing and you will get close to the 200F point then you get close to problems.

I havn't heard of any new car manufacturers disallowing the use of synthetic oil. Who does?

Dave

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#107
In reply to #105

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 9:09 AM

Then you have little experience of Turbos, most of which are air cooled and can get to a dull read heat quite easily.....try a drive in a Turbo car at night and then open the hood, the Turbo is that dangerous looking "Red Thing!".....

The heat is usually channeled away by the oil, but once the motor is stopped, this heat can "burn" the oil in the bearings. But synthetic just evaporates, taking heat as well and leaves no residue.

Whereas normal mineral oil turns into carbon that blocks oil flow the next time and eventually cause the Turbo bearings to seize up....

Any motor that overheats can get into a similar position, I was sold 80 Octane Agriculture petrol for Super by the Mafia in Italy many years ago, if it was not for the early synthetic oil, I am sure that I would have needed a new motor.....the motor ran a further 200,000 kms with us and was sold in a fully running condition.....with about 400,000 kms on the clock.....

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#110
In reply to #107

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 10:03 AM

As expected you have brought up another good point. Who here is not more than a rubber hose or fan belt away from an overheating engine? What damage will be done to that oil when that belt breaks on an expressway? How about when that hose ruptures between exits at 65 MPH? The value of that synthetic oil goes way up when these things happen. Cheap insurance.

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#113
In reply to #110

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 3:23 PM

Well put Bob, I gave you a GA for that.

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#126
In reply to #107

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 9:52 AM

I know with trucks tractors etc. we have always been told to let the engine idle for at least a full minute to cool down the Turbo.

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#32

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 12:54 PM

Your best answers so far are the people telling you to scrub the slick 50. Engine oil designers make quality oils by assembling chemically compatible addititives. Slick 50 may have non-compatible additives and destroy your whole oil package.

However, no one has mentioned api ratings and viscosities, only brand names. See the following website http://www.apicj-4.org/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf for a summary of API ratings. Long before synthetics were readily available, I determined my engines would use the best oil available. The S ratings are for gasoline engines, and are to be remembered by association with the word SERVICE and the C ratings are for diesel engines and the association is to be COMMERCIAL. Thus when I was farming I had to get the highest rated C oil for my Diesel tractor. In those days any 15/40 oil carried the highest C (CD)rating along with the highest S (SF) rating. In other words it had the most complete additive package for diesel & gasoline engines. I determined that what was good for the gander, was also good for my geese, hence 15/40 for all my engines. However, the pour point on 15/40 is only good to -25deg C (-13 deg F). So in the winter I had to switch to lower viscosities. Sorry, at the 51st Parallel 10/W30 doesn't cut it. I bought the early (very expensive) semi synthetics to get a 0/30 for low pour points. With all due respect to Andy's demo, heat isn't an issue for most people, but cold temperatures are. The most engine damage experienced in this country is due to cold startups with too thick an oil. That high screeched "eeeeee" you hear when starting at -40 is metal on metal, and this is where low viscosity synthetics shine. (It takes 5 to 15 seconds for many oils to get to your valve train at these temperatures, and cranking molasses is like trying to make it run uphill in January. Hard on your starter, electrical system, let alone the possibility of not starting.)

But, you no longer have to go to Mobil 1 to get quality synthetics. As long as the API label says SM/CJ-4,you have certification that you are buying the best engine oil available. My Ford F150 calls for Synthetic 5/20 but makes no mention of an API rating. I found Mobil 1 only to be available at bulk dealers, and exhorbitantly priced. I buy a hardware brand appropriately labeled (Same API rating as the Mobil 1) at $17.00 for a 4.4 liter jug when on sale. Makes my engine happy & me too.

And a few of you may remember the ml, mm, ms and series 1, 2 & 3 designations, but that's another story.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 1:02 PM

Excellent post. Excellent thoughts.

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#40
In reply to #32

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/05/2008 2:10 PM

You are right, I forgot to mention cold and the fact that good synthetics (with the correct viscosity for your engine) get to the working parts quicker than mineral oils, especially at low temperatures and also because you can usually use a lower viscosity than mineral....my error, thanks for that point.

May I state here and now that:- Synthetic is better at ANY temperature than an equivalent Mineral oil, for your engine.

The reason that no one else mentioned viscosity BTW, is quite simple, you need to use the correct one for your engine and your location......Mobil 1 for example probably comes in two or three different versions at least!!! We all took it for granted that we were all intelligent enough to know that and not to need to mention the fact as the same was true for years and years with mineral oil!!!!

But if you feel the need to mention this for the few that drive cars, who do their own oil changes and refilling and still don't know that, please be my guest!

Most of the posters (all?) that I read on this blog, seemed to fully understand the situation with regard to such details....or at least, they gave the impression of being AA to me.....

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#106
In reply to #40

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/11/2008 6:28 PM

Hey Andy,

How many Km's you put on a year? And do you get to run great speeds.

In Canada we are limited to 100 - 120 Km's depending on where we drive.

The occasional 140 or 180 does occur, but at risk of Fines and Demerit points!

Dave

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#108
In reply to #106

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 9:13 AM

I don't do as many KMs as I used to before(60,000+ per year or more), as I am mostly retired, but its usually around 30,000+ per year and I get to do 210 KMH (the maximum speed of my car!) about every week or so. I like to keep my hand in so to speak....

It sounds stupid to say it in this way, but on German Autobahns, where no limit is posted there is no limit!!!

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#109
In reply to #108

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 9:50 AM

It sounds stupid to say it in this way, but on German Autobahns, where no limit is posted there is no limit!!!

I have seen on TV that's about to change because of the high fatality and permanent injury rate...and conflict between sane and insane speeds as autobahns become more congested. (Possibly also because of the country's second to Italy reputation for bad driving? )

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#111
In reply to #109

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 10:20 AM

Firstly there has been talk of putting a general speed limit here for as long, if not longer than I have lived here, which is 27 years......they are still talking!!!

I do not know where you got the idea that Germany's road users are bad, but they did not make it into the top 12!!! maybe it was just a figment of your imagination?

This was found at the following link:-

europes-worst-drivers-revealed

Top 12 worst drivers list for Europe are:1. Lithuania2. Latvia3. Estonia4. Greece5. Cyprus6. Iceland7. Slovakia8. Italy9. Ireland10. Luxembourg11. Finland12. Malta

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#112
In reply to #111

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 10:41 AM

Easy now. I said bad driving, not bad drivers. And thanks for the statistics. My comment--in jest, don't you see--referred to years ago experiences, when the country really did have quite a reputation; and it stands to reason the government would have taken steps to correct in the intervening years. There's also the addition of the east that probably factors in; and, no doubt, the government (and people) had also take steps to curtail rampant problem with drunkenness...which would also improve the general accident rate statistic, wouldn't it?

Finally, it seems from the list you gave that inclusion of the former eastern bloc countries has helped the western countries, including Italy, move up the list.

Anyway, it was only meant in good fun. Nothing figmentary.

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#114
In reply to #112

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 3:29 PM

What you are saying is that what you said had little to do with fact, more with fiction.

If you check the statistics over the last 40 years or so, Germany (as many others have also done) has improved - less road deaths etc., but its position in the table of worst drivers has remained fairly stable......as has the driving of many other (older) European countries.

The newer countries have just taken over the "top" honors, but otherwise the placings have remained relatively stable......one country to another.....

I believe in always telling the exact truth, and when I don't know it, I keep my trap shut!!

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#115
In reply to #114

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 4:53 PM

ROTFLOL

What is it about motor oil that always brings out your true colours? Red faced and livid.

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#116
In reply to #114

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/12/2008 4:56 PM

Or the truth as you see it.

You're the same as every one else. You are the only one who can see your view of the 'forest'.

Not a criticism , just a fact.

And I know you like them.

Cheers,

Stu

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#118
In reply to #116

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/13/2008 5:30 AM

Dear Stueywright and previous guest post,

what you say is not quite true nor is it fair in anyway, remember, I showed the link and I posted the statistics. Nothing more nothing less.

You have criticized me for no reason, I am now going to criticize you for that reason alone, read on if you can..... I react in an unfriendly manner to such "shotgun" comments, so if you were looking for a reaction, you have one!! Lets hope it makes you a better person in the end, though I doubt that it will somehow!!!

This is a long post, so take your time in reading it and making sure that you can understand the points I am making, we don't want to see you making any further errors of judgment do we?

Remember, all you both have done is posted your "opinions"......

Please, in the future, place links to FACTS as a reasonably valid counter argument at least.

Personally I do not worry either way as where Germany is in this table of bad drivers, top or bottom, where they are is where they are so to say......that is a verifiable fact for anyone with a few brain cells and a PC connected to the web!!!

As a driver I have never been responsible for an accident (up to now at least after 45 years driving all over the world, it could of course happen tomorrow!!), but I have been in enough situations where my car has been driven into, too many times, sometimes it was just parked with nobody in it! in both the UK & German & Italy!!! So I have NOT contributed to how badly Germany (or the UK) comes in the ratings....

Even if Germany was at the top of the list, [my research has shown that Germany is middle of the road (pun intended!) for as far back as I could find statistics], I would have said just that.

For me personally the truth/facts (verifiable) are far more important to me than anyone's "opinion", my own included.....which is a further reason I post links in such cases and not my opinion....

I drive and have driven over many of the European (and many other countries outside of Europe) countries roads and I have found that Spain, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia (as it was previously known) for example have "in my opinion only", appalling driving standards.......the verifiable facts would appear to support that to a great degree....

I have never made it into the new Baltic countries recently, so it would appear that they are even worse to be able to take over all the top spots! Not somewhere I want or need to go thank God!!

I like "verifiable facts". You (and jest/troll) appear to like "unverifiable feelings", (which is how many women work/talk - not all I might add, but most in my (unverifiable!) opinion!!), that is your personal method, I have mine and wish to stay with it.

Are you both possible females (or of the other persuasion, not that it matters really)? that could be a possible answer to this, as they tend to speak from the heart and not from the head....

By the way, I am quite proud of my "adopted" country, I know that they made some dreadful mistakes in the first half of the 20th Century, but they have paid the price and apologized many times for their failures to all concerned. It is a completely different country since then, one that I can honestly say for anyone prepared to work hard, the rewards are good......

I certainly do not need to stay here, if for example I felt that somewhere else is better, but up to now, I am of the "personal opinion" after many visits to many countries that Germany is one of the best (but certainly not perfect) places to live in.

Many other countries have made huge mistakes in the past (as Germany has also done), USA with slavery for example....some have still NOT either apologized or paid recompense with regard to their war crimes, Japan is a prime example.....and not alone.....

But at some point, one does not forget the past, but only looks to the future with the previous slate clean....

I have previously lived in Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, UK, Germany all for relatively long periods of 1 year or more.

I have also had extended visits (less than one year but more than 4 weeks)to the USA, France, Holland, Ireland, South Africa, Gan, India, Switzerland to name but a few......

I have been in dozens of other countries large & small for short periods of work or sometimes play....Russia, Belgium, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Denmark, N.Africa, W.Africa, E.Africa for example.

I do feel that I can speak on such a subject with fairly good knowledge and background, although admittedly, some of the visits are more than 40 years ago.....

What do you personally have as a background to allow you to criticize me for no reason? Are you simply Jealous? Female? Frustrated? Unfriendly? Stupid?

( I should have made a single sentence there:- Are you simply a Jealous Frustrated Unfriendly Stupid Female? But that would have been a bit hard and is not really my opinion of women either!!!)

Do please answer so that the truth as to why you feel free to stoop and criticize me so easily (in your opinion at least!) can be finally known.....

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#119
In reply to #118

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/13/2008 7:09 AM

I'm sorry Andy. Your answer is too long, I have conclusions to jump to. And besides my mind is already made up, and do not want to be confused with facts.

Sorry I just couldn't resist. Best regards.

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#120
In reply to #119

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/13/2008 9:06 AM

Your answer speaks for itself in several ways......

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#121
In reply to #118

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/13/2008 10:03 AM

Well, Andy, You seem to have 'arced up' a bit too easily for me. (Methinks he doth protest too much??)

Mine was not to criticise you, as you have at length pointed out. I really don't care if the rest of the world drives like maniacs or not. I work on the principle of 'take care of your own backyard first'. I also don't care whether you think your are a better driver that me. I'm skilled at staying out of everyone else's accidents enough to have done so for over 3 million km. FACT.

And what I actually said to you was fact, not opinion. Re-read the words again, but this time don't jump to the conclusion that I'm being critical. You are the only one who can do, whatever it is you do. ( unless of course you have sold your identity and soul to buy gas for all that good driving). Your call.

The way you have responded makes me think that you may be of the persuasion that your utterances are fact, whilst everyone else's are opinion. If I can find the time I may be open to debate on it.

I come in peace, and I shake a firm hand.

Chill out, be cool,

Cheers,

Stu.

Oh! And I don't care what oil they use.

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#124
In reply to #121

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 7:36 AM

You are reading your previous post from your point of view, I am reading it from mine, I cannot find any "fact(s)" that you feel you have brought to our attention.

Please be so kind as to pint out in your posting where the fact(s) are. We are always willing to lend an ear (or an eye) when needed.....

I still understand English fairly well but I decided to checkup on my understanding of the word Fact. Using the Oxford English Dictionary I got the following:-

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

fact

noun 1 a thing that is indisputably the case. 2 (facts) information used as evidence or as part of a report.

— PHRASES before (or after) the fact Law before (or after) the committing of a crime. a fact of life something that must be accepted, even if unpalatable. the facts of life information about sexual matters. in (point of) fact in reality.

— ORIGIN originally meaning an act, later a crime: from Latin factum, from facere 'do'.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that my understanding of the word is correct! You supplied NO FACTS in any of your posts, well what a surprise.....

Thanks in advance.

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#122
In reply to #118

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/13/2008 1:48 PM

A little re-juxtapositioning and carrying to logical conclusions, if it please thee.

I believe in always telling the exact truth, and when I don't know it, I keep my trap shut!!

If you check the statistics over the last 40 years or so, Germany (as many others have also done) has improved - less road deaths etc., but its position in the table of worst drivers has remained fairly stable......as has the driving of many other (older) European countries.

So you would have us believe that Andy has checked said statistics, as he implicitly claims, over the past 40 (or even more) years—and even before the advent of PC or Web—and even while sojourning or ensconced in near and distant foreign lands? Thus is exempt from keeping mouth shut?

Or that, because Andy said it lastly, such assent as was given previously to the same possibility of improvements deserve no better than scorn and ridicule?

The newer countries have just taken over the "top" honors, but otherwise the placings have remained relatively stable......one country to another.....

So anyone would be stupid, female, or both, not to conclude the same factual truth as worldly Andy: that until such time as "newer" countries disturbed the cosmic order, there had never existed any leaders among the relatively stable placing of countries?

And finally, are we condemned to doubt the masculinity of our our own reading comprehension if we wonder how Andy's reading of his own proffered Web source seems to have led him to understandings not, thereby, evident to others? Or wonder if he, himself, actually read and fully comprehended...that by which he had formerly so graciously endeavored to enlighten us?

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#125
In reply to #122

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 8:19 AM

As you also appear to like tp speak without the benefit of facts, I have placed here a few of the recent tables of accidents/people killed. I have older data but it is rather hard to present in a factual (nice word that!) way on a blog.

The table I have reproduced here are to be found on one of the following web sites, if you wish to satisfy yourself that they are accurate....

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety/road_safety_observatory/trends_en.htm

or here:-

http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp6/transstatpub.html

A simple click on a link will bring you there immediately!

As you can see, of all the countries mentioned, road deaths per million population, 40 have more deaths per million population than Germany - including the USA with its sloooow roads - and 11 have less....

This is the position in the statistics that Germany has had, give or take a few positions, till some time after the 2nd WW (exact date difficult to find, 1948 has been offered by an ex colleague), when statistics really started to be kept and compared.

I know this is not easy to read once on the CR4 blog, I hope that you can make out some of the countries names with a little effort, or ask me to email a copy to you, its not a problem, or get a copy from the second web site shown above yourself. That is assuming that you are interested in the true facts and not just opinions.....

I have ringed the statistic for each country that is higher in accident victims than Germany....there are a lot of rings!! The statistic is "Number of persons killed in road traffic accidents per million population for 2004"

Germany would be in postion 41 of 52 countries.....the USA would be in position 11 from the top, the UK will be even lower than Germany (just!) 43 or 44 or so I would guess....

The lower the position, the better the statistic for that country.....

Prior to this year (2004), the data was only published in book format.....! the books are available still if needed.

I trust that these facts are easily understandable and alleviate any further "opinions" on the matter.....as "facts" really speak for themselves!!!

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#127
In reply to #125

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 10:20 AM

Prior to this year (2004), the data was only published in book format.....! the books are available still if needed

There there, Andy. That's a good boy.

Now be a good boy again, and bring us the statistics for growth of public transportation use in Germany, vis-a-vis other countries, since WW2. After that we can talk about how facts and anecdotes, and scholastic deliberation and kidding around, are not always the same thing.

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#128
In reply to #127

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 11:33 AM

Funny (or trying to be!) is all thats left as an answer when the facts are so clearly displayed!!!

Q.E.D.

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 1:42 PM

Come on Andy,

Guest made a valid point about the common methods of transportation. It would appear that most European countries have more of their populace using public transport on a daily basis than the USA. Though I haven't been there I would suspect that Germany is much better equipped with trains etc. than most of the rest of the world. In many countries (third world) much of the population walks or rides animals. Bicycles are also frequent modes of transport. How much of Germany's populace commutes that way?

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#130
In reply to #129

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 3:36 PM

I have no idea how many people ride a train in Germany to work.....why should I worry about that?

The question was, How good are the Germans with regard to driving? as I was just challenged in how badly the Germans drive cars, I think that the only reliable way is to compare accidents per million population.....

I cannot be expected to suddenly filter in all the other points as well.....I still feel that Germany can hold its head up as can the UK with even better statistics. Germany has no blanket limit, but the UK and the USA have.....!!! Quite interesting!

I said at the beginning and it was shown on the statistics that Germany has a fairly good record in comparison to other countries.......and has always had such a record.....I was able to prove my point quite adequately I feel.

I must admit that the high accident rate of the USA was quite a surprise to me.....!!! That came out, but I wasn't looking for it!!! I was only looking for the European statistics....

The USA has a real problem.....especially as most cities have good bus services but the "Monied" part of the population do not want to support the buses by using them....now that IS a problem. In the UK and Germany, people try and use the best transport available, they do not ignore cheap alternatives as the well off US citizens seem to do......

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#131
In reply to #130

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 5:01 PM

Yes Andy,

What I was trying to point out was an error in the statistics. Let's compare apples to apples.

Is there some way to compare, say, the number of miles driven per registered driver, per country, to the number of traffic related fatalities? That would probably give a better comparison.

I will say, based solely on personal experience with people of the German persuasion, that Germans on average have more of a tendancy to detail and 'doing it right' and so probably do have fewer accidents per capita than us sloppy Americans. That's just 'the nature of the beast'. Every country seems to have it's own peculiar national identity. That identity, or personality if you will, generally influences statistical sampling.

The above, once again, are my personal observations and may or may not hold water.

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#132
In reply to #131

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/14/2008 5:37 PM

Shadetree,

Well said.

Water tight.

Opinion.

Bricktop=no chump

Andy=PITB

Cheers,

S.

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#134
In reply to #132

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 1:59 AM

Still pissed? how childish!!

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#135
In reply to #134

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 2:03 AM

Andy! Don't be so reactive!

Besides, I have to pee!!!

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#136
In reply to #135

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 2:18 AM

Don't let me hold you back!!!

What time of day is it where you are now?

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#137
In reply to #136

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 2:48 AM

About 11:45 PM, but I can't go until I see the next reply and your response!!!

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#138
In reply to #137

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 3:14 AM

Here it is!!!!

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#139
In reply to #138

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 3:20 AM

You really need to go to my new thread...

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#140
In reply to #139

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 6:39 AM

I was already there, it hasn't "Hotted up" enough for me yet!!!

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#133
In reply to #131

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 1:58 AM

Try then to look at the pdf documents on the web sites I posted a few posts ago.

They have sorted the statistics in many different ways, possibly also in the way you mentioned too. The documents are quite long.....

The best of the two links is then probably the second one.....

Let us know if you find anything useful in that direction....

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#141
In reply to #133

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/15/2008 12:45 PM

What,

Do my own research? I'd rather you do it and then, if it fits my personal agenda, I'll adopt it. That's what all the best politicians do. I was there when Al Gore invented the internet. He got the idea from me.

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#142
In reply to #130

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/17/2008 2:36 AM

USA has a problem...

Yes you are correct, too many people with no where to go going no where getting in accidents that shouldn't have happened because they should have stayed home with no where to go.

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#143
In reply to #142

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/17/2008 3:02 AM

We're all just lookin' for the heart of Saturday night.

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#144
In reply to #143

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/17/2008 3:20 PM

That's fruition of Fridays objective (:

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#145
In reply to #144

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/18/2008 3:41 AM

You're only wasting your money if you're using it with a synthetic motor... By the way, don't cars contain engines rather than "motors?"

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#147
In reply to #145

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money?

05/18/2008 3:24 PM

10-4

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#33

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 1:00 PM

A very subjective question— Buy, okay, here's the real deal.

Because you have asked if you are wasting money, it follows that, yes, you are wasting money. Because only a worrier would ask, or need to ask the question, one which a non-worrier would never ask, because he would never spend money only to ask if he has wasted the money. And how do I know you are a worrier—and, thus, a waster of money? Because a non-worrier would know that to ask the question would be to get answers both ways, thus leaving him to worry even more about whether or not to continue worrying, whether about he had wasted time in addition to money, and whether if he changed, he would not still be wasting money, perhaps even more money that he was originally worried that he might be wasting. On the other hand, you could always decide to stop worrying about the money you already wasted, and then worry about how else you might have wasted the money. Or you could just not worry and convince yourself that the money you wasted was money well spent.

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 1:12 PM

What, me worry?

AEN

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#39
In reply to #33

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 2:05 PM

Wow I think I missed the CR4 web site and landed at Doc. Phil .COM

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#117
In reply to #39

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/12/2008 4:57 PM

Seems like you're right again, Mike.

Cheers,

Stu

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#41
In reply to #33

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 2:14 PM

That must rate as one of the most pointless posts ever on CR4.

Of course it was a Jest too!!! DUUUUHHHHH!!! To be expected.....

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 2:26 PM

In fact it was....

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#49
In reply to #43

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 6:38 PM

Guest you missed the "in-house" Joke, I call Guests, Jests and I am being friendly, believe that or not!

Some people call you Guys by your correct names, which is "Trolls"......

I was NOT referring to your post as being a joke!!!! (in exceedingly poor taste I might add if that was your intention!!).

You will see other posts about guests from other logged in, signed on CR4 members....I am not alone.

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#64
In reply to #49

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 2:19 AM

Seems again you misperceived what you perceived someone else misperceived.

In fact it was....to be expected that Andy Germany could not resist jumping in......to something over his head. (Translation: your unctuous remarks are never unexpected. And thanks, I won the quarter bet that your first reply would show up.)

This is just too easy, even for a jest.

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#66
In reply to #64

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 2:57 AM

Trolls will be trolls.........as usual........

Thank God above, that YOU know who you are and we know what you are.....!!

And long may it stay that way!!!

BTW, if this went over your head in some way, tell us and we will explain in more and simpler detail, no problem for us to help you understand things better......

....or even better, take a name and join CR4 fully, but only if you feel up to it!!

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/05/2008 2:31 PM

All I worry about is why they do not register or if they are already, who the hell they are

Guests being clever cloggs again, you just have to hate them don't you.

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#65
In reply to #33

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 2:32 AM

Dude! You use your tongue better than a $20.00 hooker!!!

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 2:59 AM

LOL !! Good one Vermin.....

Perhaps that is how he makes his money!!! Who knows?

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#69
In reply to #65

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 3:37 AM

Vermin and Andy sittin' in a tree...

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 3:56 AM

Join us. There's always room for one more f#*k!!!

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 4:14 AM

Right again my friend!!

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 4:19 AM

Some guests are just completely impossible and show little sign of class or upbringing.....which is why the name troll was originally invented I suppose,but please do not feel that we are all like this, a bad few give a good lot a bad name.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 5:09 AM

Fact is, you are all like that...looking in mirrors, trying to remember what yo mamma told you about class and upbringing, and waiting to be whipped (oh, I meant spanked) again. 'Sides that, who asked me? You?

You...you...troll monger.

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#75
In reply to #73

Re: Synthetic motor oil, am I wasting my money? or my life?

05/06/2008 7:09 AM

Its really funny, you keep changing your mind guest, one time arguing one way, the next the opposite.

You should leave the "Wakky Bakky" alone and start taking the tablets!!!

Make your mind up how you want to be and practise staying with it for a few seconds at least....later you might progress to minutes, but please take it REAL SLOW......get used to having one opinion at a time, there there.....

It appears that you have a serious (for you only, hilarious for us!!) "Split personality" problem, but BIG TIME!!!

It reminds me of an old, old Joke:-

Did you know what the Rooster said to the Hen, when a plate of scrambled eggs was seen by them in a Restaurant?

"There goes our crazy mixed up kid!"

Have a nice quiet soothing day........

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