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Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/06/2009 6:23 AM

This writer has noted, through own bench-level experimentation, that Renewable Resources in the form of plants and vegetation would be the best bet for developing Sustainable Materials and Energy, for all communities in the world.

It is estimated that every ton of "green biomass" (roughly consisting 27% organic matter; 72% moisture; and about 1% inorganic matter) could generate 75 Kg of methane gas (with 937, 500 K-cal Heat value/ energy value), 130 Kg of non-polluting CO2 (convertible into about 800 Kg "Carbon Sink Engineered" Products), 63 Kg of superb Bio-fertilizer (dry weight), and about 400 Kg reclaimable water. If instead we were to convert the cellulosic matter in the vegetation into Ethanol, we would have about 90 Kg "proof" alcohol (having energy value of about 601, 706 K-cal) and about 120 Kg "extracts". We note here that, even if we were not to consider the "extras" in the methane gas systems the base energy available in this process-conversion is greater by a factor of 50%.

The comments of CR4 Engineers are welcome

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#74

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 3:30 AM

Certain Reaffirmations, Clarifications and Interjections (II)

This is the second such "interjection"; the earlier one is here.

We, at Agro-Biogenics, are happy to note that serious and scientific involvement of different members is slowly taking shape

Again, the writer wishes to thank every one for discussing various aspects, although (as presented earlier) a few inexperienced aberrations and nearly a dozen trespassing of "noisy gossip potions" have also added some spice (or just burps!) to our otherwise highly techno-commercial and environmental concepts!

Special Thanks are to the three/ four latest threads of (karlc, bwire, and sceptic) for the most incisive and appropriate "thought-processes" in the entire 70+ discussion threads that have come out, ever since this "debate" on Methane vs Alcohol issue began. The clarifications sought by Just an Engineer would need separate discussions and it is possible that some small "conversion engines" are available in India, using "Gobar Gas" ...which means Cow Dung based Biogas

Answers to most of the "doubts", "skepticism" and "counter-points" involved therein would be best visualized through proper reading of the following:

  1. Our APIX_Blog (Excerpts: The Optimized (primary) APIX-SEP Module has been defined based on average Agro-Biogenic systems within a small area of 30 ha. And we shall name this Standard APIX_Module as: APIX_30_PILOT. A separate Blog elsewhere presents some of these data; but we shall present the basic factors here so that all of CR4 could view and interact, here. The said blog may be seen at: http://sustainabilityengineering.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/sustainable-%e2%80%9cgreen%e2%80%9d-development-an-initial-practical-pilot-plant-%e2%80%93-apix_30_pilot/ … We now call up on the entire Engineering community (especially the effervescent young Engineers) to come forward with ideas and concrete Designs for the various systems and sub-systems involved in APIX_30_Pilot, finally arriving at "Knock-Down" Engineered systems for any group to take up the project at the filed level. Our ultimate objective is to make available such Engineered GREEN Technology Solutions to the developing nations, through Open Source Engineering Design (OSED).
  2. pvh_Blog (the illustration/ schematic of APIX_30_Pilot is here, in Full Size:http://sustainabilityengineering.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/schematic-apix_30_pilot.gif … Kindly cpoy_paste on to your paint or other imaging system and rotate 90o clockwise... to get the entire illustration in straight visibility!)
  3. We have also attempted to cajole and challenge the younger generation engineers to come forward to Design these systems,so that we could present all the Plans/ designs etc in Open Source Engineering Design (OSED). Plesesee this Discussion_Thread
  4. Although "all of my presentations" are based on experiences specific to Tropical India, it is clear after various internet based interactions and discussions, during the last three years when all of these were brought into the OPEN, that almost every other tropical nation (whether Haiti, Bahamas, Philippines, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Nigeria or Indonesia) would have some parallel climatic, ecological and renewable resources based situations. Only local cultures and ethnicity could be different.
  5. Thus, once our APIX_30_Pilot is initially Designed and Commercialized, as planned (off-course, after more serious techno-commercial studies and other inputs), we would be able to extrapolate these to almost 135 + developing nations on earth. That, in fact, is the Objective of Agro-Biogenics

It is hoped that all these would ultimately lead us to the Design, Construction Plan and final Commissioning and commercializing of APIX_30_Pilot

This Discussion is on: whether Methanogenic process system (with respect to the APIX_30_Pilot) or Alcohol based process is the better for Sustainability angle. And, our Apix_Blog is to arrive at Optimum Design for the same. It is hoped that more technical support and inputs would come forth, so that the Objective of Open Source Engineering Design (OSED) becomes a reality, soon.

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 8:06 AM

I must apologize for not having yet read your threads. I will do so later.

I applaud your apparent aim - to get sustainable technology to help the poorest and most disadvantaged.

One factor I think should be borne in mind is that the most useful schemes for this purpose will be ones where the actual equipment (or at least most of it) is so designed that it can be built by low tech, local communities.

To make a real difference it seems that the expensive, high tech solutions of the developed world need to be replaced by simple, low cost methods using local and readily available materials and other items sourced locally, even if the resultant efficiency has to be sacrificed.

Maintenance should also be minimized. These communities normally lack the skills needed for more than the most basic maintenance and if regular maintenance is required, it won't be done. Again this needs to be a primary aim, even at the cost of efficiency of resource utilization.

Unless the community has a fairly large involvement in decisions as to what to do, adaptation to the local area, construction, commissioning and running of the resultant scheme, any benefits achieved will be ephemeral.

This is borne out by experience with aboriginal settlements in Australia, where large sums have been spent on great schemes, with great engineering, but inappropriate local community involvement. If these schemes continue to work at all, it only happens if the government sends in people to keep them going.

Where the locals have had good and appropriate involvement (all too rarely it seems) the schemes run well with the locals remaining enthusiastic about keeping them going.

The fact that temperatures in the tropics usually stay high enough for bacteria to remain active all day and all year round makes that region well suited to biological generation of fuel (ie anaerobic digesters, fermenters etc)

Enough rambling (I believe it becomes worse as you get alder. I seem to be trying to prove it!)

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#76
In reply to #75

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 8:29 AM

Thank you very much sceptic

One hundred percent of your observations are appropriate, and we are considering these aspects ... especially the involvement of the Local community, with their own local wisdom of thousands of years of evolution. All that we would do is to augment their ideas... with our scientific methods and technologies that are appropriate ... and if the technology is not available or unsuitable ... even though the same would have had great success in developed regions ... we shall create New systems and devise new techniques

But then, we Need to Design the different arrangements and integrate all of those in an efficient and easily operable (as well as disassemble for maintenance) manner

We shall work hard for all these...and we solicit genuine support of the world Engineering community..who have had the better of God's creations and systems ... due to various reasons

Thank you again, and wishing that your inputs are avilable for us...whatever you can

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#93
In reply to #76

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 5:35 PM

(Somehow my reply got eaten. Second try.)

Sceptic brings up a another entire area of difficulty. I am not an expert in community development, but I have had some exposure to the process in my own work.

One thing I have learned is that vast grandiose schemes don't often stand up to the community involvement process. You might have what you are sure is the "best" solution, but once you involve communities, you might have to toss that solution out the window.

But then, we Need to Design the different arrangements and integrate all of those in an efficient and easily operable (as well as disassemble for maintenance) manner

But again, you are still designing something for the communities, rather than having them design it with you.

My personal "grand design" might be to create an organization with many small local offices, that help local farmers improve efficiency in doing what they already do, rather than imposing entirely new products and processes on them. For instance, a local office might help a sugar cane farmer get his cane to market more quickly. There would be no single solution, there would be thousands of different, small solutions, depending on local resources, geography, economy, culture, etc.

But that is just MY grand scheme. If you ask a local community what they want, they might want to deal with corrupt local officials, or something else I never thought of.

With respect, you seem to think of the problem as designing an industrial process (producing methane or ethanol), and from there leap to producing trillions of dollars of income for rural Indian farmers.

But think instead this way. Instead thinking of product being methane or ethanol, think of the product as one solitary thing, that being a national situation in which rural Indian farmers are generating more income. How do you create that product? It is a process, just like any other. You must design that process, not any chemical or industrial process. Here that is usually called a "business plan", but business plans are usually simplistic and full of wishful thinking. You, being an engineer, can do better.

Your problem is made more complicated because it requires local involvement in designing and executing the actual production schemes. (You ask for support from the engineering community, but I would suggest it is more important to get the support of uneducated, poor Indian farmers.)

And I am not an expert, but I believe "sustainable" means the plan has to allow for growth, breakdowns, staff turnover, etc. In other words, it must run by itself. And it must adapt to changing conditions such as global warming or other natural disasters. For example, if it were me, I might think about how the market for methane or ethanol would be affected if Delhi decided to make a major push into solar or nuclear power perhaps 20 years down the road.

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#78

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 11:56 AM

Energy and Materials Engineering Resources in Vegetation

When we compare the two systems of Vegetation Fermentation - Aerobic and Anaerobic, we also need to look at the overall possibilities to elicit a combination of material Resources and Energy. The final test: Whether Methanogenic Conversions or Fermentation to Alcohol would be more Sustainable could be established by such comparisons. the following Illustrations could be considered as the two possible Energy + Materials/ Chemical Conversion routes using Vegetation and other related Organic materials (Note: The Illustrations here are not shown in Full size as the site allows only limited Image size. Separate Link has been presented below ...that would take the reader to appropriate website, opening Full Size diagrams)

1. Engineering Materials + Energy + Bio-Fertilizers + Chemicals (all GREEN Products)

2. Energy + Bio-Fertilizers + Chemicals (all GREEN Products)

FULL SIZE IMAGE LINK

If any member could work out an Equivalent Schematic Materials + Energy etc involved when Alcohol production is undertaken, we could have a more scientific analysis... comparing Anaerobic route Vegetation conversions and Aerobic route

Thank you

Hari

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 1:08 PM

so that we all know, what Hari ( pvhramani:) proposes is well within the 'scientific method' and we all should be paid strict attention. Hari knows what he is takling about and, there is no question, he should also be listed as a guru on this listserve.

Yours,

tank.

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#90
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 5:02 PM

Surely you are not saying that we should accept 100% of what he ever says, just because he is a knowledgeable person?

My understanding of the scientific method is that it is not based on personal authority, but the authority of logic, procedure, and consensus.

Even smart, knowledgeable people can be wrong. Don't you agree?

Off topic, but I couldn't resist.

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#92
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 5:19 PM
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#94
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 5:41 PM

You have saved that picture for just these occasions, have you? That is funny.

But I am not clear about what you are saying is obvious.

- tank is saying that Hari is knowledgeable and therefore we should accept what he says (I think.)

- I am saying that even knowledgeable people can be wrong, (implying that) we should be just as critical and searching to Hari as we are to everybody else.

Which of the two is obvious? I would have thought my point is not obvious, given what I see in the world around me everyday, but perhaps CR4 is an oasis of intelligence, integrity and respect for the truth. If that is the case, I am happy to have found it!

Actually, I am happy to have found it regardless. :-)

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#98
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 10:52 PM

Have you spent any time in suburban India within the past five years? If you have you would remember the overwhelming odor of wood smoke permeating the air and you would know what benefit the common availability of Methane stove gas would create.

These rural farmers are a very industrious folk and with current logistic capabilities are fully capable to transport Methane gas if the opportunity were to arise.

The OP is intent upon producing such and opportunity and enterprise will occur.

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#100
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/10/2009 11:58 PM

Did you post this in the wrong sub-thread? Anyway,

Have you spent any time in suburban India within the past five years? If you have you would remember the overwhelming odor of wood smoke permeating the air and you would know what benefit the common availability of Methane stove gas would create.

Well, certainly methane stoves would improve their health, and it help stave off global warming more than we thought (black carbon particulates might be a big deal, I just read somewhere.)

But Hari is talking about lifting rural Indians out of poverty. I don't see the steps between step 1, designing a process to produce biofuel (and if you like, step 18, building or selling or importing methane cookstoves) to step 87, creating more income for rural Indians.

These rural farmers are a very industrious folk and with current logistic capabilities are fully capable to transport Methane gas if the opportunity were to arise.

I have not the slightest doubt of their work ethic and their ingenuity. I just wondered if those transportation costs were somehow accounted for in this vast scheme. If the plan is for the biofuel to be used only locally, then it is not an issue. But if it is going to be sold, where will it be sold? It might be at the village a few miles away, or it might be in Mumbai. The plan doesn't mention it. (There is a third possibility besides burning it in cookstoves or selling it on commodities floors that I mention in another post.)

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#102
In reply to #100

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/11/2009 12:29 AM

I've been trying to tell you gently but I just have to say it plain I guess...you are an intelligent and helpful soul intent upon setting of black and white but we are in the gray area now. You're thinking to hard too soon the chicken (concept) hasn't gotten to road yet, when it gets to the road it will be time decide where to from here. The farmers won't be on-board until they're in the road....

Great inputs...too...

Yes I saved that pic for certain times

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#117
In reply to #102

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 1:20 AM

Thank you for the compliments! I have been told I think too hard many times.

Community development is an entire field of knowledge (more full of gray than engineering, I am pretty sure), of which I have only had the barest exposure. But that little exposure might be more than most engineers get. I know that community involvement is not something you can tack on at the end. It is foundational. The farmers won't be on board until they help make the solution, and it is already too late for them to hop on Hari'strain (where is it going? Is it possibly going too fast?)

The flow of money is also foundational, because it allows sustainability (it is not sufficient, but it is necessary.) And again, Hari wants to lift poor rural Indian farmers out of poverty, he says.

Anyway, all that is necessary to get me to shut up about these things is for Hari to say, "We have taken care of those issues in such and such a way," or "You are right, we do need to work on those aspects of the plan." Then I can go back to thinking about clever bullets.

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#118
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 4:41 AM

The farmers won't be on board until they help make the solution, and it is already too late for them to hop on Hari'strain (where is it going? Is it possibly going too fast?)

Whoa up there, Hari's train is not yet tangible for now it a mere conceptualization of pertinent values.

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#119
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 12:24 PM

Hari's train has two possible biofuel products and a host of other products as well, like fertilizer, building materials, etc. From a community development point of view, the train is halfway to Beijing.

The people you want to help have to be involved from the very beginning. In fact they really should be the driving force behind the project.

But before that, you have to start building relationships with them. That can and should take a long time, perhaps years.

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#120
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 1:01 PM

It is taking a long time, it does require community involvement, and thus, unless the local communities wish to be involved, then the idea is of little value. We can give a man his fishing pole , but until he sits on the bank and fishes, he will go hungry. Nothing is ever accomplished without effort, both for the giver and the receiver. Now, keep in mind, so many of the poor have given it their bast effort only to see their children starve to death. All they ask is a means to feed themselves. We do have projects budding in India, in Ethiopia, in Pakistan, in South Africa, and believe it or not, even there is some suggestions for projects in the USA. And, my friend, do not forget, Hari has used this idea back on his former farm. Hari has over 17 years of experience practicing what he preaches. I have, also, been working on some parts of this concept since the late 50's. WHat we suggest is not new, in fact, it is older than the hills, but, for mankind's sake, it does work. Let us work together and do what needs to be done. Let's show the way, share with them the knowledge and engineering they need and let them help themselves.

Yours,

tank

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#123
In reply to #120

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 2:32 PM

Let's show the way, share with them the knowledge and engineering they need and let them help themselves.

Also known as leadership and mentoring.

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#124
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 8:36 PM

It is taking a long time, it does require community involvement, and thus, unless the local communities wish to be involved, then the idea is of little value. We can give a man his fishing pole , but until he sits on the bank and fishes, he will go hungry. Nothing is ever accomplished without effort, both for the giver and the receiver.

I thought I said just that. So we are agreed, Hari's project requires community involvement.

Where is that community involvement? How are they involved? How long have they involved? How many? At what stage is their involvement? (According to some people, there are five stages of involvement, or something like that. I am not an expert.)

I am not asking in order to imply that there is no community involvement, I am asking so that you can answer and settle the question. Just tell us where you are at with that critical piece.

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#121
In reply to #119

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 1:46 PM

hi folks.

methane digesters are already a fact of life in india. i am not sure of my numbers, but i do believe there are more methane digesters in india, than in the rest of the world. i do know that most of the research on methane digesters occurs in india.

i think hari is just trying to look forward from that base, trying to draw a future in which modern business could look down to the local villages and see a possibility for them to invest at the very bottom of the ladder.

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#126
In reply to #121

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/14/2009 6:18 AM

Hello artbyjoe

You are accurate when you state some of the things you have expressed. However, it is a sad commentary on the "operational conversion ability" of Indian Scientists, when we note that many excellent works done are simply kept within the "note books" and "internal magazines' of different Institutions. You don't see any of those works as we see in the works of NASA, Forest Products Research, NREL, and so on. Further, whatever info we get through any Research Institution in India are at best suitable for some University level reports and Sessional work data for undergraduate and graduate students!

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#127
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Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/14/2009 9:51 AM

hello Pyhramani,

that may be as to the state of knowledge and propagation of such in india. but it is not alone. i have found that knowledge about small scale methane digestion is fragmentary and contradictory thruout the world. when i discuss methane digestion with engineers without any knowledge of them, they get annoyed that i can not show them concrete facts about the process. all i can tell them is that the literature available says that the process will proceed in such and such a way as this variable changes. and so on with the next variable. they also don't like it that hard numbers are contradictory from different sources. the problems are that the process is so simple, yet the variables are so complex, that showing the whole picture to some one so that they have real understanding is difficult.

example. almost no matter how you build and use a methane digester, it will work and produce methane.

then, the question about optimization comes up. then you have to talk about trends and usually's and guesses.

example: try to come up with a hard number for the average weight of dried fecal matter produced by one person. answer: well, it varies depending upon this and that.

so, hard information is not shared well, because it all has to be taken into context. in other words, there isn't much hard information. there is only general information where pulling information is like taking one line from a page, reading on for 10 pages, and taking another line and so on. using this to try to build a knowledge base. it is not a good way to engineer an optimum system. the real world is trial and error. let the systems evolve. they all work to some degree or other.

for the uneducated farmer in a third world country. it is not a thing of educating him, it should be just to encourage him and help him build a methane digester out of whatever materials are handy and cheap. whatever results he gets will improve his life and he will be grateful. his neighbors will see that his life is improved by this, and the farmer will help his neighbor build one also. that is how community involvement works at the grass roots level. one farmer at a time who is willing to try, and someone who is willing to help him. your help is the catalist. then the knowlege and implementation becomes viral.

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#122
In reply to #94

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/13/2009 2:28 PM

Karic,

Aboslutley!! The goal is to get the bottom invovled enough to contribute to their own uplifting. These people are not mentally deficient, they are mearly disadvantaged. All we need to to is to give them a fishing pole and teach them to fish; they are fully capable of doing the rest. After all, is that not what oyr ansestors did? I wonder how many people on this service recalls the world history, it show this very clearly. What good is our education if we do not look back at our future?

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#96

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcoh

06/10/2009 9:08 PM

What is more practical?

The Brazilians have done good work to the point where they have certified planes flying around using Alcohol.

Actually that is a big deal, for aircraft engines need BTUs, and if it is practical for an airplane, it is likely practical for a car.

We do avoid some of the problems with bio gas, when we go to alcohol as a standard fuel.

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#104

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/11/2009 3:30 AM

Certain Reaffirmations, Clarifications and Interjections (III)

The writer is overwhelmed and would like to thank every one who has responded to the Forum-Discussions here. The resultant "hot" interactions that are witnessed present certain interesting Techno-Commercial observational inferences. These pertain to the following:

  1. To begin with, the writer is personally indebted to every one of you, for the various inputs and insights that have been "showered", during the course of the Discussions
  2. Every interaction does not seem to be on the "main theme-agenda", although most "off-hand" presentations also do have some bearing on the main theme – and a few inexperienced/ over-enthusiastic aberrations are also seen!
  3. Although it is appreciated that every reference/ link that is presented during the course of our discussions may not be "fully read" by each person, it is benignly felt that continued remarks/ comments would have to be tempered by re-look at those links. This action would make sure that the commentator is able to respond on the basis of the "definitions" within which we present our view-points – even if there are "opposing" definitions. This would go a long way in avoiding "repetitions" of already explained matters. For example, Thread_78 in this Discussion Forum had clearly presented the Schematic of Vegetation+Organic Resources Conversions that involve Methanogenic fermentation, finally resulting in two separate systems of Out-put materials. Our idea is to arrive at Sustainability, comparing these two Methanogenic arrangements with an equivalent Aerobic fermentation arrangement, which Needs to be schematically defined, first. Comments after this "thread referred above" (about 25 in number) do not take the parameters and other data presented into account. Instead, most of the discussions seem to veer around "transporting" methane, Compressing, and other related subjects – none of these arising at all. Further, the writer is attempting to define the various parameters, constraints and other important variable that are to be taken into account in the final Designs... and this very Discussion is initiated with those in mind … awaiting insights/ suggestions shown by the honorable CR4 members
  4. It is true that the different presentations of APIX, Agro-Biogenics and all related material/ other links are based on the writer's experience in India; and it is also true that the prime "driving force" is the Need for improving the living standards of the nearly 800 million poorest people in India's 635, 000 dilapidated villages. However, it should also be recognized that the broader Concept is the improvement of the nearly 4000 million poorest people of the world, almost all of them living in the 135 + Tropical nations. The method to be followed is to extrapolate the Indian experiences, within the cultural and ethnicity systems of every other nation.
  5. Please note that the writer would take the total responsibility upon himself for these "slips", as it is clear that the explanations made in the references cited are not fully evident to the reader. This has prompted the writer to plan a few additional Forum Discussion Subjects, which would soon be presented one by one through the CR4 Sustainability Form. The idea is to make ALL the points/ methods/ systems fully evident to every participant, so that our ultimate Objective of Open Source Engineered Designs (OSED) of all APIX-SEP projects could be presented through the Internet for any one to download … as we now do in the case of Open Source Software such as UBUNTU, Open Office Org, etc

In the meanwhile, it is felt and fervently suggested our discussions on the basic theme here should continue, until we are able to reach our definite conclusions.

Thank you

Hari

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#112
In reply to #104

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/11/2009 5:48 PM

Comments after this "thread referred above" (about 25 in number) do not take the parameters and other data presented into account. Instead, most of the discussions seem to veer around "transporting" methane, Compressing, and other related subjects – none of these arising at all.

I think I am responsible for those veers, and I am sorry if that discussion is not helpful to you. You are asking a bunch of engineers for engineering feedback.

But I would suggest you also ask some non-engineers, especially experts in international development and community organization, for some feedback too.

It appears from the discussion that generating both methane and ethanol are at least feasible technically. If the goal is simply to provide small communities with a cleaner fuel for cooking and the like, that seems possible. But nobody has even mentioned a way to turn that process into income for poor rural Indians. Is that still a goal of the project? If so, how are you going to achieve that?

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#115
In reply to #112

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/12/2009 4:02 AM

Hello karlc

Please note that the writer has not made any attempt to make any one responsible for the discussion matters that have cropped up, including the referred "veering around". Here, it has also been specifically mentioned that: "the writer would take the total responsibility upon himself for these "slips", as it is clear that the explanations made in the references cited are not fully evident to the reader".

Now, in order that every reader gets a simpler idea of the Processes mentioned through the earlier Thread and is better visualized, here is a presentation ...

In case the Illustration is not visible properly, it would be mailed to any one who wishes to get a larger Image of the same

Thank you

Hari

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#116
In reply to #115

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/12/2009 3:50 PM

Hari,

Thanks for the reply! In my discussions with bwire and others, I kept wondering if you would step in and speak for yourself. And here you are! That is good.

Your diagram is great. I imagine similar diagrams are used for other industrial processes. But it has no dollar signs. Who is selling what, and to who? How is money flowing? Or is getting money to poor rural Indians not part of your project?

And I suggested you talk to development and community organizer experts. Have you done so? What did they say?

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#125

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/14/2009 5:55 AM

The prime subject consideration here is to analyze the veracity of our present "general" conclusion that Methane Gas based APIX_30_Pilot programs (wherein we begin with the Renewable Resources in about 30 to 35 ha area within a village limit) would be More Sustainable, Economically attractive and Socially more beneficial. Even so, many of the points referred to here (on involvement of Local Community, local Government, Funding Institutions and the like) are of as much importance, if not more. These facts have not been overlooked, when we initially decided to plan ahead with APIX-SEP program, as envisaged in our original APIX_Blog. In fact, the writer (as well as both chtank and chandu, our Think-Tank members) is in constant discussion with various NGO's and other Local Communities in various places, and our primary Plan is to take the next Step in more such Discussions and action-plans, only after we are able to bring out appropriate Engieering Designs for all the systems/ Plant/ Machinery/ Auxiliaries. That alone would help us "throw open" the basic Designs through the Internet, as OSED, for Anyone to download.

If, however, a few honorable Members would wish to know some aspects of these "non technical" (but extremely important and practical aspects) matters, the following Blog would offer an overall picture: agrobiogenicspvh

Thank you

Hari

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#128
In reply to #125

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/14/2009 10:24 AM

I applaud you pvhramani it's a hoot!

No not slight upon Indian tech but that the nature of the matter is of such content of gray continence or is it context at least this is truely an event worthy of the term evolution whoo-hoo

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: Which is More Sustainable – Vegetation to Methane Gas or Vegetation to Alcohol?

06/14/2009 12:34 PM

Thank you bwire!

To the extent you have been able to assess the real intentions of our scheme APIX-SEP programs, all of us at Agro-biogenics, are happy.

Personally, over the years, it has been my professional and behavioral Mission to be impersonal, devoid of extra emotional mannerisms. And, to that extent, I would wish not to be carried away by enamored outpourings and sensory encomiums, apart from mentally resisting getting provoked; Yet, as humans there could be limit to these esoteric visualizations, and many slip between the lip and the cup would have to be crossed, before we reach even some small illusory results

Regards

Hari

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