Previous in Forum: Filtering of Radioactive Water   Next in Forum: Doyle Rotary Video With Audio!
Close
Close
Close
15 comments
Participant

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1

"Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/06/2011 12:51 PM

With regards to Japan dumping contaminated water back into the Pacific. Correct me if I'm wrong ,but Wasn't their back-up plan supposed to include a secondary system whereby should some catastrophe compromise their normal operation they would use desalienated water from the pacific to cool protruding rods and then continue to circulate this water inside the confines of the reactor until their regular/normal operations were restored and then proceed with pumping this contaminated water into a storage cell? What went wrong with the Design?...:>(

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
3
Commentator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 87
Good Answers: 7
#1

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/06/2011 2:51 PM

'What went wrong with the design?'

... that would be; a 9.0 magnitude earthquake and tsunami.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#2

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/06/2011 2:54 PM

I'm not sure if that was the backup plan, but I think the reason everything failed is that the backup plan(s) in place depended upon the emergency generators.......for pumping or anything else.

The one scenario they didn't plan on, was having everything, including backup systems, flooded by a tsunami.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1560
Good Answers: 125
#3

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/06/2011 5:40 PM

Earthquake cased damage. Tsunami flooded backup generators. Replacement generators were working but night crew let them run out of fuel. Heat generated compromised containment, caused explosions from hydrogen that had to be vented due to pressure buildup, and recirculate holding tanks were compromised. You can't recirculate from a leaking tank so here we are. No good fix here, this will take a long time.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#4

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 1:55 AM

http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/ TEPCO has stopped a leak of highly radioactive water from the site into the Pacific Ocean. TEPCO had been trying various means to plug the leak in a concrete enclosure that carries electric cables since it was discovered Saturday. Pouring concrete and later an absorbent polymer into the enclosure were unsuccessful. On Monday, workers injected a colored liquid tracer into the system of enclosures to determine the flow path of the water. It showed that the radioactive water may be leaking from a cracked pipe, and then seeping through gravel into the concrete enclosure. Additional testing showed leakage from the crack in the enclosure into the ocean. Beginning yesterday, TEPCO injected approximately 1,600 gallons of liquid glass into the system, which stanched the flow of water. TEPCO is considering injecting more liquid glass into the area as a preventive measure.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#5

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 6:45 AM

I have wondered several times why the reactors were placed on the east coast of Japan, right next to the Pacific/Asia fault line, and not on the west coast as far away from that fault line as possible in Japan?

Here is a map I found on the web showing the position of the fault lines relative to Japan:-

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: beverly hills
Posts: 116
#6
In reply to #5

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 6:58 AM

hi, all

nuclear waste the problem here

regards

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 467
#7
In reply to #5

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 7:31 AM

Hi Andy,

The prevailing winds blow from west to east. In the event of radioactive leakage they wanted any resulting radioactive cloud to blow out over the sea, rather than over the entire island.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hydro, Oklahoma
Posts: 184
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 10:20 AM

Once again,as we plan ourselves into believing we have all ends covered and backups to relieve any mishap there is still one end swinging loosely waiting to the test our greatest inventions,' Mother Nature'. The earthquake and the massive waves could have been defeated if came at different times but man could not believe they would show up in a bundle and in a matter of min.. I think the backup plans were as good as the engineers could design in looking for all safe and secure reasonings. We must all begin to realize the unthinkable, unbelievable, can take place. It did, and now we pay the price for not being better prepared. and it looks to like the price will be equally so.

__________________
Jim
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#9
In reply to #8

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 11:23 AM

Seriously? Tsunamis are have been long correlated with earthquakes, so any half educated man would naturally assume a tsunami as a consequence of a earthquake. You always expect those two events along the coast to be bundled. while the facilities were not majorly damaged, someone who designed the scondary systems to support the back up generators probably cut corners on the analysis and forgot to look at the possibility of flooding the generators. They probably just figured it didn't matter enough, afterall what are the odds of the plant losing power for a few weeks, adn the generators being flooded out, to spend the money and cut into their profit margins to analyze and design properly. This is what happens when you go with the low bidder or large corporate design teams on these unlikely to be used backup/safety features.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#10
In reply to #7

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 1:36 PM

It looks as though that was a bad decision right now.....the west coast was relatively undamaged.....and no Tsunami either......I wonder where they will build the next ones?

Thanks for your answer.

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#11
In reply to #9

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 1:38 PM

I feel that your comments deserve a GA.

My feelings exactly.

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hydro, Oklahoma
Posts: 184
Good Answers: 2
#12
In reply to #9

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 4:46 PM

I'm glad the half educated are no longer with us. The corporations, its managers, Its inspectors are educated as are its engineers, but, money is the name of the game be it yens or dollars, and time is money on any project. I watched as crews hauled steel up one side of a multi-story hotel and casino in vegas and throw it off the other side because they wanted to finish ahead of another. the forms were built and the concrete poured. It was 8 years before the building was condeemed.. We all need to demand the Material and the skill meets what is put on paper. And this is why we hire independent inspectors. Its to late for this Japanese mishap, but we have the same type of events looming over our heads along our coast lines and it's time to get our uneducated heads out of our uneducated rears and spend the money we are wasting else where to prevent such a disaster on our shores.

__________________
Jim
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2363
Good Answers: 63
#13
In reply to #12

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/07/2011 5:00 PM

Not sure what the intent of your statement wa, but a qualified inspector really isn't of much use when it comes to designing a backup generator above prospective flood stages. That is an engineering design issue, and since contractors and inspectors aren't privy to the actual design flood stage calculations (all they know is that the design floor elevation is supposed to be X or the building is to be constructed in such a manner). You are right in the statement time is money, even in design engineering, large corporations in particular utilize many "managers" to control budgets and assure the highest profitability with some consideration for liabilities. If i was the Japanese government I would seek to prosecute the people responsible for the design decisions that set the backup generators in perile when a disaster occurs. Afterall, back up generators are there to support facilities exactly when a disaster occurs. Now if there was a modification to the facility inconsistent with design, then they should prosecute the person who made the decision to implement the modification, whether it was a CM, contractor, Operations manager, or facilities maintenance worker. A little jail time would probably change their perspectives in the future. they should then allow huge law suits against the operating company, contractor and design engineering firm responsible for the back up generators facilities design. That would definitely get a response from the corporations during future projects. Unfortunately, this would not help with low bidder companies that cut corners, as these are usually small shops with no long term objectives, and many times fly by night operations planning to exist maybe a few years before moving on to something else.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#14
In reply to #13

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/08/2011 3:44 AM

They are all probably burning in hell already!!! If we are lucky......

Don't forget that Fukishimi 1 was built about 40 years ago.......and the others shortly afterwards.....within around 10 years of #1 if my memory serves me correctly......

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13
#15

Re: "Japan Dumps Backup Planning"

04/08/2011 11:27 AM

I suppose the biggest problem is disposing of the nuclear waste instead of stockpiling as these are still dangerous. The damage could be minimized if the fuel rods are disposed immediately after use. Has anyone devised a safe method of disposing these? If not, then human is such a thoughtless species

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 15 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (4); bwire (1); Flee to Me reMote elF (1); jtd405 (2); kramarat (2); Magz (1); RCE (2); ronron (1); WJMFIRE (1)

Previous in Forum: Filtering of Radioactive Water   Next in Forum: Doyle Rotary Video With Audio!

Advertisement