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Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/10/2007 7:19 PM

This is an open invitation to all: post your weird and most bizarre link of magical or unexplained science or phenomenon, preferably in video, which you may occasionally encounter on the web, and let's all discuss it here:

- Is it for real or is it a hoax?

- If it's real, how is it made, what's the phenomenon or effect?

- If it's a hoax, how was it made?

Dear Admins, please consider: Should this be a blog?

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#1

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/10/2007 7:24 PM

This can only gum up the works. But why not slow down the all ready over worked brains of those who take time to sit and type while others just browse. My internet connection is already on over load.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/10/2007 7:35 PM

No, no. Once you already found a wacky video, just keep the URL for us to examine and discuss. We need our daily fun, don't we?

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/10/2007 7:42 PM

I guess so.

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#4

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/10/2007 10:59 PM

Great Idea!!

Windhexe is a device that apparently works as advertised, instantly converting almost anything (bricks, eggs, grains, glass bottles, chicken droppings, etc, etc.) to dry, sterile powder.

EEstor claim to have a super capacitor battery (a bunch of supercapacitors, with charge/discharge regulating built in). You can treat it as a battery with voltage of your choice, with the actual capacitors being charged to 3200V. Sounds plausible, but the storage densities seem unrealistically high -- way too high. If this is the real deal, it will stand the EV world on its ear. Whadya think?

The whole peswiki site is full of all sorts of alternative energy devices. Some are clearly legit. Many are not. Some of the bogus stuff is promoted by people who appear unacquainted with basic physics. Other bogus things are promoted by people who are clearly scam artists.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 12:34 AM

Windhexe - Haven't come across this one before (and I work with AlfaLavel, still it doesn't surprise me). Reminds me of the Dyson vacuum cleaner tornado action. The principle is also used by at least one air conditioning company to create an enclosure cooler using only a constant stream of compressed air in a special chamber. You really need to be given more information on how it operates and what sort of baffles, etc are inside the chamber (it doesn't work well at breaking down elastic and fatty substances). Think of it in terms of a dry air-powered waste disposer, oh, and it certainly is not instant.

EEstor - You are getting power density and energy density mixed up. Supercaps / ultracaps / ELDC's / etc have very high power densities but not the high energy density of batteries. This means that they can only provide lots of power for a short period of time before running out. They really are designed to be used in conjunction with batteries (the best of both power and energy density worlds). Nothing wacky here.

Peswiki - So many free energy and over-unity generators, so little a clue (or free energy for that matter). Rename to really cool looking loads and motors, possibly made by MacGyver when he was a child.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 9:08 AM

Re Windhexe: I couldn't (re)find the videos of this thing in action (which I'd previously viewed) but you'd get a kick out of watching them, if you have the time to find them. Of course, when I said "instant" I was exaggerating, but a sucked-up bunch of bones comes out as powder is a matter of 2-3 seconds.

Re EEstor: Actually I didn't use the terms "power" or "energy" for the reasons you state. The EEstor device is claimed to be substantially better than current state of the art in both respects: much better energy densities than batteries, and better power density than caps. And no, it is not intended to be used in conjunction with conventional batteries, but to replace them entirely. Thus, the scepticism. Further the price is to be far less than supercaps. Standard supercapacitors are often used in newish EV prototypes (and even oldish construction equipment) for exactly the reasons you cite.

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#7

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 1:03 PM

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/springpendulum.html

My Brother Ian, named his Girlfriend's sweet and adorable King Charles Spaniel Puppy; "Jackson Pollock"

Go to this link, and think "Carpet"....Mmmmm?

Enjoy!

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 1:47 PM

This reminded me of a magnetic repulsion pendulum, looks much like yours, only with a few magnets layed opposite to have a repulsive field. Once you let go, it may have an erratic movement, sometimes up to fifteen minutes before slowing down to rest on some equilibrium.

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#9

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 2:14 PM

From Wiki, again:

Here, this 1230 AD contraption, it can actually be built, exhibited, and "properly" called: "Anti-Gravity Rotary Engine from the middle-ages" right?

Here's Occam's Razor: Do you honestly think it will work?

A hint: you don't really have to build one, to answer the question

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#10

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 2:18 PM

Dear Alastair,

Your suggested link is an hour-long lecture, let me see it and I'll come back to you, provided I'm still in my good senses.

P.S, this video can be downloaded into a google video player.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 2:49 PM

I left a message for you Yuval, Cassino is spelt Casino.....An extra "S" to emphasise the point. I left my own "Jackson Pollock" on the Google Video Comments! " Stochastic Resonance" AT&T Patent 4704622 Tunnelling Diode. (Capaso). But P.V.D.F. has been around for donkeys ears. That Piezo/Pyro Plastic has been detecting 'Brownian Motion' as an 'Electrical' output ever since it poured out of a test tube. OK fractions of a nano-watt? but 'Perpetual' all the same. Back in 1983, we had heated debates in Cambridge watering holes, all about the significance of it. Happy Days.

Brownian Rectification and Thermodynamic Processes?....Mmmmmm? Let's Go-4-It!

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 3:14 PM

Hmmm, I thought I found all the ultracap players in the world but I have not come across EEstor before (it sounded similar to another ultracap manufacturer or brand). It is probably because they are so secretive. I was able to track this down thou.

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html

Really it is an ultracap (1 million cycles, fast recharge, etc), but with a calculated energy density of around 385 Wh/kg (31F at 3500V in a 336 pound package) it means that it will perform in the battery class. Price is incredibly low too.

This product is very promising but I cannot help feeling a bit sceptical, especially over the massive superiority compared to anything else on the market at the moment or under development, in either the ultracap or battery camps. Also working in the marketing and engineering departments has given me a healthy scepticism for excessive claims and half-truths.

I will have to keep an eye on this development also.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 3:18 PM

Isabel Countess of Erroll, Wife of My Boss! Merlin Hay The Rt. Hon Earl of Erroll, Colonel Royal Military Police & Head of HM's Household Scotland, Lord High Constable, Knight Marshal & Butler, Arranged for her Hurricane in September 2003, (Hurricane Isabel) to include a tribute to The Pentagon.....(Queen Elizabeth II is their Landlady)

Check out:- http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/SODA_chapter6.html

No that contraption would NOT work! but a variation at the nano-scale? perhaps?

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#14

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 3:20 PM

From the lecture: Tesla in the 1930's "If the energy in space is kinetic, than we can find a way to use it"

Well, we do use it, when we sling-shoot a vehicle with the aid of a planet or moon's gravity, in order to conserve chemical energy of fuel boosters.

"So...", - goes the lecturer, "...this is about the basis to the concept of "zero point energy..."

Then comes the example of helium, not freezing at zero kelvin, "Hello? did you hear me - he says - there is kinetic energy at zero kelvin!" or something like that.

Zero kelvin was never reached, or known to be reached. the lowest possible temperature allowed by cosmologists is four degrees, and that is, if and when conditions allow.

He talks as if we've already been there. This sounds like a mismatch of fact and hope.

Basing a hypothesis on the assumption that helium would maintain kinetic energy at zero kelvin (if and when you've managed to introduce it to zero kelvin by some miracle), does not maintain that energy is available for free, or that you can extract any form of energy without some investment, or some energy loss at the actual extraction.

As to the "decay of physical vacuum" with his reference to Paul Dirac's mention, of locality-vacuum around charged particles.

There is no real vacuum anywhere. Even a "stretched interaction field" between remote particles is not a vacuum in the sense that potential energy is directed/converted there.

Today's QM does not really distinguish between a particles dimensions and the dimensions of it's associated fields.

In that sense alone, there is no particle in the universe which manages to escape interaction. Even as force fields (including gravity) decay relative to distance, They never decline to absolute zero.

"it's no longer the eighteenth century notion of empty space" - he said. This is reverse times reverse. In the eighteenth century they believed that space is anything but empty. It even had a medium called "Ether" to fill it with, until Michelson-Morley's experiment.

- Hey, what is all this? a serious attempt to convince that since helium has kinetic energy at the unobtainable zero kelvin, and that around Dirac's locality there is a vacuum to suck negatively charged particles, so that we should believe that endless-energy is there for the taking at no expense?

I could go on forever, and this lecture is only half-way through.

I'll see it through, with anticipation for some late-coming revelation.

This is an inappropriate mismatch of never proven assumptions, to my humble, limited, understanding.

May god forgive my Chutzpa. Jasper.

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#15

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 3:45 PM

Oh, all right then. My award for the wackiest scientific development has to go hands-down to Steorn for their free energy generator.

http://www.steorn.com/

Sure, free energy devices have been done to death, but this company has a number of things going for it that really set it apart from the rest.

(1) It is an international company that accidentally discovered a free energy generator when (if I remember correctly) trying to develop a wind generator for one of their street pole-mounted camera systems.

(2) The entire project is built around Independent verification by the scientific community in general, as well as a panel made up of scientists and engineers from the community.

(3) The plan on giving the technology to the world via the internet, open-source.

(4) The site and it's content doesn't look like it was made by a 13 year old with English as his second language.

(5) Nowhere were any of the following mentioned - Tesla, Aliens, Draco, "prototype constructed out of wood and fridge magnets", "verification by friends, sister's cousin", conspiracy, world-government, any links to free-energy or alien sites or products, links to porn sites or "meet a friend" or use of slang such as ROFL, 4tunite, ur, etc by someone supposedly 62 years old with multiple degrees in science and engineering.

The site has changed a bit since stage 1, and I cannot find the original history on how the technology was accidentally discovered, or the proposal for the panel (It is noted that to actually be on the panel cost about 3000 pounds). The actual technology involves the free energy permanent magnet generator. That old chestnut.

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#16
In reply to #11

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 3:46 PM

Wait, Alastair, Wait!... don't choke me here, one daemon at a time.

Now, Tunneling, that's some real Quantum magic!

Take the Ammoniac molecule. A pyramid of three hydrogens with a sideway put nitrogen. To maintain the molecule structure stable, the nitro must pass through the pyramid, side to side, at millions of iterations per second.

Now, here's the magic: The nitro atom-size, is as big as the whole pyramid put together. How does it go through?

Does it swallow the pyramid while going through it?

Does it shrink to near zero while going through it?

You can only grasp it, if you take into account, that a particle is a cloud of potential energy, a force-field, not a rigid object.

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#17
In reply to #11

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 4:07 PM

...That Piezo/Pyro Plastic has been detecting 'Brownian Motion' as an 'Electrical' output ever since it poured out of a test tube...

Piezo does not convert Brownian into electrical, and even if it did, it would not break any rule, but display energy conversion as such.

Piezo converts axially directed mechanical pressure against it's lattice, to release negative charge, or suck positive, depending on the pressure's direction.

Push it repeatedly, and it produces AC. The output proportional to the mechanical force applied. Give it a bang with a mini-hammer, it will go upto 15 thou volts, enough to arc between two poles. This is of course, the familiar "bang-lighter" for kitchens or cigarettes.

But, it is a transducer: Apply current to it's axially dimensioned lattice, and it will expand or contract according to the charge, or current direction. This of course, is the piezo tweeter

...'Perpetual' all the same...

Brownian motion is not perpetual, because it's temperature-dependant, and as such, it's proportional to the amount applied, i.e, imported into the system.

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#18
In reply to #9

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 4:13 PM

Yes, the concept of free energy goes back a long way, well before electricity was even invented. Seems a bit silly really since a stream-driven water wheel would work fine for milling grain, and technically could be called free-energy back in those days.

".....why, back in my day son we didn't have any of this zero-point energy, magnets or electricity, all we had was a stick and a few buckets of water to make our free energy generators".

Anyone care to post a link to the oldest recorded free-energy contraption. I have a feeling it could date back as far as the great pyramids in Egypt themselves (the technology was of course lost to us however when a war broke out/sandstorm rolled in/surprise Gould attack thwarted by a time-travelling SG-1 team, and destroyed all evidence).

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#19
In reply to #16

Erratum: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 4:42 PM

...A pyramid of three hydrogens...

Not really a Pyramid (It needs four corners), let's call it a triangle, then.

Sorry

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 5:14 PM

Toungue firmly in cheek, but cheek is sometimes appropriate this "steorn.com" website??? All the 'Usual Suspects' seem to have gravitated to this amazing revelation of over-unity perpetual power. I took note of the Time Traveler from the year 2036, who by dastardly conspiracy had his 'Post' mysteriously erased. He had returned to collect a missing 'Top Secret' PC. that had some anti-virus software essential to save humanity. We are all going to???? die like flies, from a Mad Cow/ CJD/ Alzheimer's disease. Moooooo

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10134

Alzheimer's may 'seed' itself like mad cow disease

  • 19:00 21 September 2006
  • NewScientist.com news service
  • Roxanne Khamsi

You have all been warned,...."The End of the world is Nigh"

Now if I wanted to destroy the credibility of a genuine Over-Unity Website, I would pay good money to script-writers, to concoct crazy stuff to post up on their forum.

It works both ways. The entire world is, and has been, for millennium upon millennium, enslaved by this insane fixation on "Money". It's a con-trick of the most diabolical nature, perpetrated by the most evil scoundrels on earth. Mass hypnosis at it's most malevolent. The only solution is to show to the entire world that "You CAN get something for nothing" and that "The books do NOT have to balance" Then people will wake up from their nightmare, Trussssssssssssst in the Snake of Capitalism will have been broken. Yup! There is a lot at stake here! The cheaters are on the run. Their control is already broken by the good old Internet!

Wacky Science depends on "Wacky Philosophy" Enjoy!

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 5:46 PM

...Now if I wanted to destroy the credibility of a genuine Over-Unity Website, I would pay good money to script-writers, to concoct crazy stuff to post up on their forum...

Sad, but so true

Mad Cow: The disease is a derivative of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, which is rampant in cannibals, especially those who feed on their closest relative, such as those in Fiji Borneo and Papua.

It turns that if you feed on proteins close enough to your own genetic constitution, (just as with the cows, feeding on dead cow parts), a special protein is produced in your nervous system, to allow for mass structural-deformation of proteins, chemically resistant to drug treatment. It chemically deforms nerve proteins, to non functionality.

Note: cannibalism, the same as incest, is a natural, universal, taboo, which was so formed, by classical natural selection.

Both, are a "close-relative-mix" no-no, to avoid something called "Miotic Acceleration" which may fixate genetic pathology inside isolated populations. (Maybe, again, I misspelled it: Miotic, from Miosis)

Not always can it be avoided, and some island populations suffering from inbreeding, may indeed display such pathologies.

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#22
In reply to #21

Erratum: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:08 PM

...those who feed on their closest relative...

Sorry, not as in "regularly feeding on their closest relatives", but instead, more like "occasionally and ceremonially eating their deceased closest relatives"

Oops: I knew I misspelled it:...Maybe, again, I misspelled it: Miotic, from Miosis)...

Should be: Meiosis of course

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:16 PM

"Fractals", "Mandelbrot Sets" "Chaos Theory" "Strange Attractors" these were the buzz words of the end of the last millennium. If I tossed a coin a thousand times and 500 were heads, 500 tails, I would be mildly surprised as exact parity would be rare. but not all that unlikely. If on the other hand I detected a pattern, such as heads, tales, heads, tails, heads, tails, etc. for all thousand tosses, I would examine the coin carefully for magnetic/whatever influence, and suspect a joker taking the mickey.

Given any random sample, there is more likely to be a 'mismatch. than 'parity'. That is a stochastic reality. If hypothetically a nano-device/whatever can harness any force/charge/whatever independent of 'polarity' or 'spin' etc. then Brownian effects should produce a minute power output.

Put another way, That ubiquitous "Butterfly Effect" that causes Hurricanes to conveniently form 'Pentagons' at their eye, but only if named after the wife of a Magical Gentleman......and only if they flap their wings a certain way? Could the impulse to flap the wings come from minute signals caused by Brownian Motion of Air Molecules caught up in the microscopic hairs of their feathery little antennae? Itself the result of a remote Lost Tribe Amazon Shaman Priest singing a sacred song?

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:28 PM

...Brownian effects should produce a minute power output...

And it should, and provided you found a way to harness it, use it by all means. No problems here. But, the mere Brownian movement remains temperature-dependent upon invested energy, thus, not perpetual.

The butterfly-effect to cause hurricane does not cause the hurricane, any more than the minute pin you released to let the building collapse.

It is more appropriate to say that the flutter released the hurricane, in the sense that before, a given equilibrium kept it at bay, and the butterfly disturbed this equilibrium, to release the potential energy of the hurricane, and set it in motion.

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#25
In reply to #8

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:33 PM

What a "Team"

A "Wacky Science Project" in an old Squash Court, with a pile of graphite bricks.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:41 PM

Who are these fellas? For a moment I thought it was the Colossus Mafia from Bletchley Park (who I admire so much), you know, Alan Turing vs. German-Enigma from WW2

- - - - - - - - -

Got it, got it!

The Manhattan Buggers, Enrico Fermi (bottom-line leftmost) and company

Niels Bohr (bottom-line second right) in the rain-coat?

Right?

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 7:48 PM

Serendipity? both are "Fractal" but one is called "Sheep" the other "Boske" (Koi Carp must surely speak Koi-ney Greek = "Feed Me")

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#28
In reply to #4

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 8:21 PM

EEstor: The abstract proposed in patenting the device is too cryptic to realise what's-what in there, let alone to understand the workings of the proposed device. We cannot even tell if a successful prototype was built to back the claims.

Given that current-day capacitive electric batteries, are of relatively poor efficiency, it's not impossible that someone improved it's electrical-current capacity, by chemical means.

If so, they're likely to become very reach, and soon, because the main hinder to both pure electric and hybrid vehicles, is the poor capacity of the battery.

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 9:22 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en

Yup! You spotted Enrico Fermi. My Grandfather, Capt F.H. Farmer (Royal Artillery) was convinced Enrico borrowed his name, he was called Mr. Farmer. Francis my Grandfather had been requested by the War Office to investigate reports of Historical Nuclear Explosions in India. (He was Chairman of the Indian Co-operative Society) He was able to report back in the affirmative, and that therefor little danger existed of igniting the atmosphere, as had been feared. From "The Mahabharata" we read:-

"Ghurka, flying a swift and powerful vimana, hurled a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose with all it's splendor.

It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.

The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. Hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause, and birds turned white. Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed. The sun seemed to waver in the heavens. The Earth Shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon...........Elephants burst into flames and ran to and fro screaming in a frenzy....over a vast area other animals crumpled to the ground and died.

....After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected..... to escape the fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment".....etc.

Mohenjo Daro Harappa, Kot Diji and other ancient cities have a 'Writing' known as 'Ancient Dravidian, related to Tamil, the glyphs are 'identical' glyph for glyph, with Rongo Rongo script from Easter Island. Jesuit Priests arrived two centuries ago, took copies of all the wooden scripts, and having ensured that the Native Population were unable to read their own texts, made a bonfire of all of them. A few artifacts survived. A 'Sacred Phallic Staff' was recently partly decyphered...... Bletchley Park Boffins would have come in handy Yuval,......The staff speaks of a great 'Angry God' who rises like a huge penis cloud to copulate with the sky. this comes after a lightening flash ten thousand times brighter than the sun. After copulating with the Sky, Scorpion Fish poison rains down upon the earth. (If you tread on a Scorpion Fish, my brother has witnessed it, you will beg to be mercy-killed, so great is the pain) These remaining wooden artifacts have been analysed, they are not from Pacific Island or Antipodean Species, The wood comes from India and is very old.

Mmmmmm? The Citadel of Mohenjo Daro, Eh? The place is still radioactive. The bricks have been glazed just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and from the shadows one can pinpoint exactly where the Holocaust exploded......Mmmmmm.....FACT...NOT....WACKY SPECULATION. Mmmmmmm?

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 9:48 PM

...this comes after a lightening flash ten thousand times brighter than the sun...

Remember the Tunguska incident, just before the Soviet Revolution? It turned that the incoming trajectory allowed the meteorite to completely incinerate, leaving no evidence on the ground, other than the shockwave impact. No residual radiation, no suspected isotope trace (was revisited more than twenty times since), nothing.

...After copulating with the Sky, Scorpion Fish poison rains down upon the earth. (If you tread on a Scorpion Fish, my brother has witnessed it, you will beg to be mercy-killed, so great is the pain)...

Yes, These are residents of the red sea, as an estuary of the Indian Ocean. Turists to Eilat (adjacent to Aqaba, Jordan) are warned to look-out for those. These look like Feather-Head American-Indians

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 9:50 PM

I know what Capt. F.H. Farmer would have said, Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile Sculpture is a 'Great Work of Art' but it is also in a glass cabinet, lit by spot-lights, those in turn would create a toroidal circulation of air..... Those "Chaos Pendulums" He would want to know if they still waved about with the spot-lights turned off, probably several hundred watts of them at that. Granddad was no fool either.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/11/2007 9:58 PM

...Those "Chaos Pendulums"...

Could go-on for amazingly long periods, alas, eventually slow down, subject to mother-nature's capricious nature.

If She was only a bit more forgiving, we could all have our way

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#33
In reply to #30

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 8:41 AM

"No residual radiation, no suspected isotope trace (was revisited more than twenty times since), nothing."

A 'Soft' impact as they call it. indeed that is what makes these ancient nuclear? explosions so disturbing, there is plenty of residual radiation. Indian and Soviet Scientists measured 50 times more radiation, with isotopes similar to Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the Mohenjo Daro site. so clearly we can discount the soft meteorite impact hypothesis, especially when we read the testimony of eye witnesses in Ancient Histories.

I am glad to hear that later this year the Egyptian Dept. of Antiquities have announced they will be showing a live opening of the Secret Chamber inside the Great Pyramid. Hopefully Anti-Historians will not be able to corrupt the data yet again. These folk go to great lengths to burn down Libraries with embarrassing information. I suspect the Cruise Missile sent to blow up President Milosevich in 1999, who it was well known was NOT living in Tito's fantastic Library, was intended just to destroy the Library and not Slobodan Milosevich. It is speculation, but Andrew Carnegie was a great collector of Books, after he visited Kinnaird Castle in Brechin Angus Scotland, our Family home. It had one of Europe's finest Libraries before Andrew's generosity added priceless works to it. Then soon after an inexplicable fire broke out, and when the Fire Brigade from all around arrived. They had the wrong fire hoses. just a month before, A Fire Officer had been to Kinnaird Castle to ensure New Fire Hydrants were in Place, to comply with the new regulations. Satisfied that they were in place, he refused to allow the New Fire Hoses or even 'Adaptors' to be brought to the fire. Then when there was no smoke in the Library, He refused to allow folk into the Library to rescue millions worth of precious books. That was the Final Straw! We ignored the stupid twit, and recovered most of the books. Attempting to help, This same fire chief sent his lads in to help, Interestingly my grandfather noted that they only rescued bound periodicals of no value, like Illustrated London News. etc. Even when asked they refused to help carry a Gutenberg Bible for instance. If it's Old, don't touch it, seemed to be the orders. Mmmmmmm????? Anti-Historians? This incident inspired a work of science fiction "Farenheight 451"

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#34
In reply to #29

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 8:53 AM

Dear Laurence Gardener, a competent 'Revisionist Historian' but out of his depth on Science, (Would you allow a plumber to perform Heart Surgery? even though he was an expert on 'pumps-plumbing'?)

That's Laurence Gardener for you. You wanted Wacky Science?.......You got it here in droves!

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#35
In reply to #30

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 9:19 AM

".......This incident inspired a work of science fiction "Farenheight 451"

He He! A confession, Farenheit 451? ....Fahrenheit 451, but search engines will direct anybody making the same spelling mistake!....Tup Tut! "Wacky Science & Wacky Spelling"....but with a Wacky Scientific Purpose.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 10:01 AM

Postscript:- Oh All right then,.....I had better reveal to those who might be interested, that one of Scotland's most precious books was rescued from that dreadful fire. It's my personal favourite. A Treatise on Golf.

Abstract Synopsis;-

How to train your Hawk, Take one feathery golf ball and a golf club. Whack your ball as far as you can, Your Hawk will have been trained to pick up the ball and drop it down a pre-prepared hole, often marked with a flag. You walk up to the hole to retrieve your ball, dip your hand in and pull up an Egg, to the delight of your Pet Raptor. The hawk knows that only by dropping the magic egg down the hole, will provide a tasty meal.. Burning Books is criminal vandalism. History and precious knowledge is destroyed, Karl Sagan said it was the greatest crime of Humanity. The Science of Golf may not seem important, but to some folk it is!

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#37
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 12:19 PM

I'll have to find time for a good look at this . If someone looks down a microscope far enough , I wonder if they will see someone looking back with a telescope (and vice versa of course ) . How on earth do you find all these terrific links Alastair ?

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#38
In reply to #34

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 3:02 PM

Fun thou it was trying to watch the whole of this streaming movie (I didn't get very far), could you perhaps summarise what he was on about. I got something about gold turning into exotic monotonic dust, ever changing laws of science and the universe and some link to religion and the ark (the ant was pretty neat thou). I am going to throw out a guess and say he was trying to eventually prove an argument based on the fact that it cannot be proven, so therefore it could have happened (existence of the golden ark perhaps).

Why does this remind me of a recent episode of the Simpsons (on teaching creationism in schools) where the church put forward an impartial witness to testify in court. He was a minister with a degree in "Trutholgy".

Big boy book version with the big pictures please for those of us with little bandwidth and/or patience.

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#39

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 3:03 PM

Hi to all,

some comments and questions:

1. the ammonia molekule as all other existing molecules is stable because the atoms share some of the electrons together, the orbits of the electrons ( a few only) enclose two or more atoms instead of only one in a single atom.

This electron-sharing is giving rise to a binding force that is dependent on distance so it is acting like a spring, this spring can be stretched or compressed allowing the atoms to move around as if you put together masses with springs.So the nitrogen can freely pass the three hydrogens it pushes these wide apart. The model molecule will have some natural frequencies the same is true with the molecules resulting in infrared absorption at the frequencies of stretching or rotation.

2. The brownian motion to be detected by a piezo transducer: no big problem only very small signals, as the small mass of a molecule with a good velocity is giving only a small impulse the piezo signal will be very weak. That's why for this application PVDF (small mass) is better than other piezos (quartz crystal). Its easyer with capacitive sensing as the capacitive electrodes can be made much lighter.

3. Mohenjo Daro history: does anybody really believe there was a nuclear explosion 5000 years ago?

Where are the documents and publications about the finding of radioactive or other suspicious material? Which elements and which isotopes?

Where are the measurements of thermoluminescence to determine the age of the glazing? If different from original glazed ceramics this should be detectable.

What about the same fairy tale that Sodom and Gomorra has the same or similar findings, Yuval you should know more details.

4. My suggestion: be more critical, we have to have a proof of any unusual statement, a proof that is in itself possible to prove. If there is no proof then we are talking about a hypothesis.

5. The only unexplainable things I do know are:

the dark matter and energy in our universe and its origin

some medical wonders

psychology and psychotherapy including the stock exchange

the madness of humans spending a lot of money for burning food declared as biofuel including the responsible governments

the madness of humans to neglect their children (missing love and missing education)

the existence or nonexistence of god.

Most unexplainable mysteries can be explained by others that are knowledgable, or can be explained by experts that are familiar with cheating and hoax, some are explainable by scientific experts and some await an explanation because we know that we don't know really much.

This is especially true for getting a fast overview over system dynamics, this is not very well fitting our brain structure.

Despite any criticism and scepticism this is a nice thread.

RHABE

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#40
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 3:15 PM

...Sodom and Gomorrah has the same or similar findings, Yuval you should know more details...

No one serious here, really think it was nuclear. It was originally a sixties hippie myth, which Erich Von Deniken later helped to disseminate, thanks to his popular film in the seventies.

Sodom is right between two tectonic plates, and more likely it was a colossal volcanic eruption, some 25.000 years ago (Paleolithic-Cro Magnon), which created the Sodom Crater with it's crest of mountains around, later filled with water from the Jordan.

Some geologists speculated in the eighties, that because of the shape of the Dead Sea, the crater was made by a two-bounce meteor impact, but no sediments were found to back it up.

Noting to be alarmed about. Nice post RHABE.

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#41
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 3:53 PM

...Mohenjo Daro history: does anybody really believe there was a nuclear explosion 5000 years ago?...

This should be a legitimate question: And supposed an ancient site is found with residual radiation or suspicious isotopes, what then?

Can it be explained, correlated to natural phenomenon?

Can radio-active bodies exist in the asteroid belt? Should these exist, would they maintain these properties following the high temperature impact?

A lot of legitimate questions here, we can deal with.

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#42
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 4:42 PM

Just peeked, amazing!

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#43
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 5:54 PM

Hi Yuval,

all elements heavyer than helium are generated inside stars by neutron capture and fusion,

they are evaporated into space by supernova explosions

recompacted by hitting (high velocity) dark clouds or other shock waves in our galaxy

further compacted by gravity until stars and planets are formed.

So our elements above helium were once generated inside stars or in the supernova explosion of dying stars or both.

In the formation process of a new star (our sun) it is very likely that there is a more or less perfect mixing of dust as the particles are orbiting the center of gravity with different velocities. And agglomeration will not make this change.

So radioactivity will be evenly distributed unless a later process is doing some differentiation.

This can be mineral enrichment in or on our earth: some by gravity some by solution and crystallisation.So there can be radioactive mineral deposits on planets with water.

But not in the asteroid belt nor the Kuiper nor the Oorth cloud.

If an ordinary meteorite hits a natural radioactive deposit this will be redistributed either mechanically or evaporated, than mixed and recondensed.

This will totally change the composition of the radioactive material as the elements that had formed by the radioactive decay will be likely not deposited in the same regions as the radioactive elements. So this process will rejuvenate the deposit.

But it will never create the transuranic elements found in fission and fusion bomb relics.

These can be easily detected after long time (minimum 100.000years) by the radioactive decay and can be detected later by the decay products.

These I want to have analysed from any site that is claimed to be a pre 1945 nuclear explosion site.

RHABE

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#44
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 6:38 PM

So, if heavy metals created by nuclear transmutation in stars, some heavy metals may have radioactive non-stable nuclei, be found in asteroids.

Was the uranium caesium rubidium etc, found here in ores, on earth's crest, are made on earth, or imported here by gravity?

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#45
In reply to #38

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 6:58 PM

I have had fairly good reports from folk that have known Laurence Gardner, he is a great lecturer, but I feel far too trusting. This White Gold, for instance, take it to a Goldsmith, and he will show you the door, NO GOLD present. This sounds like a scam to me. It's so pure and refined, he enthuses, the analysis can't detect it|? Oh yeah!

Next we will see Laurence in his underpants, telling us his clothes are woven from such fine thread, that only very wise people can see it. and his tailor told him the threads were mono-atomic gold.

The trick is to sort the wheat from the chaff, there might be some very important information from ancient civilizations that would be of immense benefit to us today. That may take years of dedicated scholarship to unearth. These folk are our Ancestors, everybody should be at least a little interested.

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#46
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 7:27 PM

...It's so pure and refined, he enthuses, the analysis can't detect it|? Oh yeah!...

Not unlike the Homeopathic claim: the more it is diluted, the more potent it becomes...

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#47
In reply to #39

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 8:17 PM

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/13920_stones.html

Hi RHABE, #(3) Mohenjo Daro: Yes The Soviet Academy of Science and well over a billion inhabitants of India believe that a nuclear explosion took place at Mohenjo Daro. I will try to find the data sets you are looking for. I love a true Scientific Scepticism, As you so correctly state, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. With the full rigor of peer review. Thank you.

The people at Pravda may be able to assist as well, above is a 2004 feature. but I have read a better feature that named the Soviet/Indian team that collected the data. That would be of more use.

The Indian Calendar starts at this event, they have counted and accurately recorded every single day ever since. but please don't take my word, make independent enquiries. I could be pulling your leg after all. That is the Scientific and Historical Method "Check" and then "Re-Check" till "Fact" is unequivocal.

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/12/2007 8:22 PM

I was under the impression that no mater how diluted it became, the result could be the same (not better), even thou it shouldn't be. Scientific tests have actually proven it.

One of those bizarre things. There is a link somewhere to her research.

Here is a main overview of a similar phenomenon - the Placebo effect

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060630_placebo.html

And an additional one from the other side of the fence (ie- why you should not just rely on the Placebo effect alone).

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060407_quack_clinics.html

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#49
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 1:14 AM

I've got on of those plastic pyramids - I never have to sharpen razor blades and it preserves food . It's true because people like Lyell Watson said so. Got to dash , the shaving rash itches and I have bad diarrh...

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#50
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 1:37 AM

Interesting link . I wonder if those levitating stones will 'pop-up' on utube .

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#51
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 3:45 AM

Hi Yuval,

shure in asteroids will be some minor amount of radioactive material - the same amount as on earth, but on earth it is redistributed and partially concentrated.

The theary of element generation is today that in the "big bang" that made the starting point for our kosmos 13 billion years ago there was only hydrogen and helium generated.

After star formation the small ones are stable for long time and then after exhaustion get dim but not distorted.

The bigger ones exhaust the hydrogen supply, then burn the helium then the heavier elements to stop with iron and the exploding in a gigantic explosion that outshines our whole galaxy of 10 11 stars for some days.

During star burning one part of heavy elements is formed by a lot of different pathways the simplest one of adding neutrons to existing atoms.

Most of these freshly generated atoms are radioactive but as there is ample time mast will be stable after some billion years.

Burning time until explosion is ranging from a few million years up to a many billion years.

In the final explosion a lot of more heavy elements are generated.

As our sun is now around 5billion years old there was 8billion years of material formation inside other stars then supernova explosion then high velocity expansion of the remnants then mixing with other interstellar material and concentration again by shockwaves in very dilute but very fast material and then gravitational pull until a new star and its planets is formed from the dust.

As the asteroids hitting the earth all have the same age and none is known to have come from outside of our solar system all will have the same heritage of formation of our solar system.

There is alittle amount of elements formed later by the radioactive decay - uranium is decaying towards lead, we know from the isotope distribution how much.

From the transuranic elements generated in stellar explosions nothing is left over as the half life times are short in relation to the age of our solar system.

Greetings

RHABE

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#52
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 4:18 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94KzmB2bI7s&mode=related&search=

Yes Here is an "Acoustic Levitation Chamber" Video, Enjoy

I still think the "Levitating Frog" is hard to beat. It's there as well.

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#53
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 4:44 AM

Nice , once I got used to the noise . Reminds me of a documentary I saw about a guy who had an 'anti-gravity' flying disc he'd built . The thing was shown hovering , but he wasn't going to explain how . Unfortunately I don't recollect any more detail - If it comes back to me I'll post it. I got sidetracked by acoustic guitar on the link - I'm a sucker for it , especially john Martyn.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 5:18 AM

Levitating stones, reminds me of an old joke. It could become a practical reality one day. more on that later.

There was this old man clearing up his garden shed, and he came across an old rusty tin, when he started to clean it with some wire wool, the lid sprang open and out popped a huge Genie....."I am the Genie of the Tin, what is your wish oh great master?"....The old man says, "Gosh, do I get three wishes then?"....."No, I am very sorry Master, you are thinking of the great Genie of the Lamp, I'm just the Genie of the Tin, and I can only manage one wish, please don't wish for endless wishes either, they all ask for that, and I can't do it".....So the old man thinks for a while, then tells the Genie, "Me and the wife have always wanted to visit America, but she is terrified of flying and I get sea sick, please could you build a motorway bridge over the Atlantic so that we could drive there?"........"Hold on Master, that's a bit of a tall order, I did say I was only the Genie of the tin after all, can't you wish for something a little less demanding?".....So the man thinks again, then asks the Genie "Ok then, I can never fathom what my wife is thinking from one moment to the next, please tell me how her mind works?"........."Your wish is my command" responds the Genie, and disappears for quite a while, the old man waits so long, he begins to think he must have imagined the whole episode. Then suddenly the Genie reappears, and looking rather embarrassed asks the old man; "Oh Great Master, how many lanes did you want that motorway bridge"

There is a theoretical way to suspend a bridge in low orbit all round the equator with "Active Mass". enter "Space Fountain" into a search engine and see what results. Wikipedia has a good feature. Wacky Science that the Genie of the Tin might have to resort to.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 5:37 AM

I'll have to tell my wife that one later . It all reminds me of Easdale Island where they hold the world skimming champioships ( from the mainland cross The Bridge Over the Atlantic , calling at the 'honest box' gift shop and the 'house of the trousers' pub on Easdale Island ) - and if time permits go to see one of the worlds best whirlpools.A beautiful place to visit.

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#56
In reply to #52

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 7:30 AM

Have to agree with you, the acoustic guitar section is well worth a look! did you see the ditty on the pendulum motor?

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#57
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Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 4:08 PM

Welcome to the thread Mr. Truman Brain, glad to have you aboard here are a few intriguing links, first if you like music?

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/dabby-0318.html

Quote:-

Art intersects science: Dabby creates music out of chaos

March 18, 1998

Fifteen years ago, Dr. Diana Dabby was enjoying a flourishing career as a pianist and composer, performing in New York's Weill (Carnegie) Recital Hall and abroad. Then one day she found a series of articles on computer music -- all written by mathematicians, computer scientists or electrical engineers -- which led her back to college and into the field of engineering. In 1987 she became a graduate student in MIT's Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science (EECS) and in 1995 received the PhD for her thesis, "Musical Variations from a Chaotic Mapping."

Cue the Music......"The ET Theme"....Chaotically modified naturally

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1867168054073996598

Followed by Go"del Escher Bach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

http://www.last.fm/listen/artist/Johann%2520Sebastian%2520Bach/similarartists

To get you in the mood for "The Myth of Heavy Lift"

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/146/1

We plan to place a 40,000,000 meter "curtain rail" in orbit. then have solar powered? levitating shuttles act as the "curtain rings". The rail will accelerate forward as the curtain rings accelerate backwards, until they are in geosynchronous orbit . Then we may be able to 'Hoist' payloads into space. This new United States Rail Gun could dramatically reduce the cost of placing the 'Curtain Rail" up in orbit. The mathematics work fine, but it's definitely at the "Pipe Dream" stage at the moment, buy why not? dreams cost nothing, and exercise the old grey matter wonderfully.

Carbon Nanotube Ribbon For Space Elevator
We may not have to go all that far into space, just as far as the curtain rail?

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=438

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/09/18/space.elevator/index.html

Gravity Powered Aircraft could take the payload part way, so to speak, the elevator cables could just dangle in the upper atmosphere, ready to hook up and hoist away?

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=359 We are at the dawn of a New Age.

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#58
In reply to #15

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 7:01 PM

I'd have to agree -- Steorn is one of my favorites too. Much slicker and less obviously nutty than many alternatives. But no less fraudulent -- and maybe more so, because at least with the other sites there are so many warning signs. It as if there is a universal legal requirement for free energy machines: if you are going to promote them you are required to sound like a lunatic. I think the law reads like this:

The promoter of an over unity machine must not really solely on the wackiness of the machine alone as being adequate warning to investors. Each such promoter must also passionately claim existence for at least four phenomena or conspiracies from those listed in paragraph 14.5.6 of common law RF 345.

Steorn, by failing to comply with common law RF 345, make themselves appear almost 10% legit, giving them an unfair advantage over the fraudsters who are complying with the law.

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#59
In reply to #7

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 7:10 PM

The simulator in your link is great fun to play with. I'd found this site some time ago, and then lost it, so am glad you posted the link. Upside down pendulums are fun to play with too.

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 7:44 PM

Thanks Ken, I liked the "Jack the Dripper" (Jackson Pollock) Arty-Farty Possibilities.

Wow! if only I could drip paint all over an 8' x4' sheet of builders fibreboard and sell it for $75,000,000 . I wonder if he was ahead of his time? anticipating Chaos Theory? Zero Point Energy? and stuff.

Here is a good link,

http://www.space.com/php/video/player.php?video_id=b000108_sp_zeropoint

Very professional presentation on zero point energy, for those interested.

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#61
In reply to #58

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/13/2007 9:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clafqu0Xw6E&mode=related&search=

Our Late departed friend Stanley Meyer (RIP) here at full belt! If he was preaching in a tent, the crowd would be going "Hallelujah Brother!"....."Glorey Be!"

The jury is out as to whether it is Science or Non-science? His famous water powered 'Dune Buggy' poses a simple question, Water comes out of the exhaust, feed it back to the electrolysis device, and the motor will run for ever. Now put the Dune Buggy in an insulated garage/shed, and it's going to get very hot inside. The way to test these devices is not from mains supply, but by making one machine drive the other, with a generator. put both machines in an insulated room, and watch the thermometer rise, or not, as the case may be. Sorry CR4 folks for so many posts. hard to resist.

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#62

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 12:35 AM

Hi Yuval,

Burning the midnight oil here, B.E.S.T Korea.Co.,Ltd. with a snazzy presentation of their full range of 'Brown Gas' generators.

This looks like main stream, not garden shed technology, swarofni the You Tube contributor has quite a selection of videos posted. In my view this was the best. At least now we can contact a real company, and extract 'real' data.

http://www.browngas.com/eng_bestkorea/main_eng.asp

This looks like one of their Promotion Videos on You Tube. Quite Impressive. No claims of over-unity though, as far as I could tell. Let's examine the specifications and find out. If...???... it is over-unity? then rest assured, I doubt there will not be a Professor in any University anywhere on the Planet, that will sleep easy till an adequate explanation is arrived at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCuI9IWfZ4&mode=user&search=

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 12:45 AM

AC,

Just one question: Why do you seem so well hooked up with wacky science?!

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 1:04 AM

Hi vermin ,

Glad you asked, and welcome to the thread.

John Archibald Wheeler, probably the greatest living Scientist alive today, told me that if a day passed without discovering and investigating something curious, then that day was a poor one.

The second reason, is that the Carnegie Corporation, does not like to lose money. and very much enjoys making loads of it by being ahead of the game.

Statements like this one intrigue me:-

· Thermonuclear reaction feature

Flame of Brown Gas has unique personality which atom and molecular hydrogen and oxygen react. Hydrogen atom and oxygen atom are permeated through atomic nucleus of heating zone material. Therefore, applied heat material is applied heat by hotter flame than flame of when gas is burnt alone among air because do thermonuclear reaction by hydrogen and oxygen. According to heating target material, Brown Gas that have different thermonuclear reaction special quality can weld brick with iron just as it is. http://www.browngas.com/eng_bestkorea/k_gas.htm

c. Result

(1)

If a company install the Brown Gas Generator(BK-6000), it receives piped water and produces Brown Gas as much as 8,870,400 wons worth per month. The company gets 8,303,400 wons as a monthly profit even if we get rid of its consuming electricity fee.

In other word, 9 months profit 8,303,400 wons is affordable to buy the product. If you buy the product, you will have an annual profit 99,640,800 wons and you can save such amount of fuel.

(2)

This result is in accord with the fact that Brown Gas which is used as a welding gas saves 94% of acetylene, and 82% of propane as mentioned by our catalogue in 1995 when we launch the first product.
In fact, we can save more than 82% for a ceramic melting incinerator using LNG and pure oxygen. Other cases save more than 80% of fuel costs.
You may be astonished because it saves too much. But they are natural results because it uses water as a fuel instead of oils.

(3)

Consequently, such economic effects are natural results of well-proportioned oxygen in Brown Gas. It awaken us a natural truth that water is a fuel.
We'd like to say that this age is of the water fuel self-production, and we hope our customers will be free from energy cost and live in plenty by saving cost.

These claims, from what appears to be a respectable company, with thousands of delighted and highly satisfied customers, look to be genuine, I would say that if they are, then Main-stream Science is the "Wacky" Science. What is more you and the rest of CR4, would probably concur.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 1:14 AM

Woof!!!

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#66
In reply to #62

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 11:26 AM

Dear Alastair,

At first I thought you meant Brownian Gas somehow misspelled (as I often do), but then clicked the URL, to see that it was Brown, not Brownian, silly me.

There the legitimate looking company declares (as it does in the video promo of the second link) that they "...already started to develop the hydrogen energy, namely Brown gas..."

Calling hydrogen energy Brown gas, is a nice touch I must admit, and declaring publicly they already started to develop it, is even nicer, had my hat off in humility, but then scrolled down to see:

,

which made me realise that this is about them telling the world plain and simple, that they already started to develop industrial-scale electrolysis for whatever use, as if saying:

"Folks, we realised that people probably like hydrogen. OK. We'll electrolyse it for you, on industrial scale, once we're over the development phase, which we already started".

Nice.

P.S: I already started to develop the kinetic energy, namely the Green movement. A diagram and a video will follow.

Jasper the jester, at your service.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 12:12 PM

Hi Yuval,

you added an energy source to make the concept sound.

But they have stated in USP 6443725 that the "brown gas" generated is combusted to generate more brown gas and extract energy.

So this is a perpetuum mobile. No possibility to come near a realisation.

All should know the fact that the US patent and trademark office (www.uspto.gov)

abandoned its policy to thoroughly investigate the feasability of the claims since a few years. So nobody can trust US patents any more that the claims can be made real!

What is more interesting is the fact that companies like these can extract money from others with such a nonsense.

RHABE

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 12:51 PM

...you added an energy source to make the concept sound...

Not I did. They did. My post (with diagram) was mainly a quote from their site...

I, personally, think this is a sham to convince people they invented electrolysis, and extract investment for "Further development"

...companies like these can extract money from others...

This is typical New-Age economics for you. You gather the best minds around, not to invent or discover something of benefit to people, but instead the use the best of their real potential, to fool other people, into believing and investing in fantastic but non-real schemes.

Today, people tend to believe in "too-good-to-be-true". It is not an oxymoron any more. Everything goes.

If I had a good video, done with stunning CGI, canvasing people to invest in the development of alien, ex-terrestrial technology, I bet at least one will come up with the money to open the flood gate for others. None will stop and ask: "Hey!...If this is superior alien technology, what is there do develop?"

No-one will even ask me how I got in touch with alien technology in the first place, or what are they like. As if it is besides the point.

People enjoy believing in fantasy. It helps them forget the hardship of every day's life.

Again, the saddest thing about it, is that behind these hoaxes are the brightest people, evidently needed to convince half-idiots like myself.

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 2:23 PM

Well said RHABE, "so nobody can trust US patents....that claims can be made real"

Some Patents are only worth the scrap paper value. and are not even absorbent. The British Army call it 'Bumph' (Scatological fodder, 4 the use of) The Chairman of this B.E.S.T Company makes a clear statement that the most frequent question he is asked, is "What is the calorific value of the 'Brown Gas'?" to which he responds, "Exactly the same as regular Hydrogen"... so no claims of the ubiquitous "Over-Unity" here, He also says clearly that the question misses the point entirely. Which is:- "Brown Gas saves money on the shop floor"

We used to call it "Virgin Hydrogen", or mono-atomic as opposed to molecular H2. This has been known for a very long time to be 'Weird' stuff, and has had the scientific community puzzled for well over a century. B.E.S.T. customers are very happy with their product. It's safe, it's cheap, it's efficient, it's highly versatile. It works! They don't care what the explanation is. They just laugh all the way to the Bank!

Market Forces, will doubtless see the major corporations getting in on the act. Watch out for these tap-water dissociation devices in every welding shop across the nation, with comfortingly familiar brand names. Doubtless with more ingenious patents to enhance performance/reliability. Look out for conventional welding gas bottles piling up at the scrap yards. and Fire Brigade Officers breathing a huge sigh of relief.

Now come on CR4 Team, What's with Virgin Hydrogen? get those search engines busy please.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 3:06 PM

Dear Alastair,

None, I believe, is having doubts that hydrogen burns well. Their trouble (and mine) is the cost of extracting and maintaining it. Except for some exotic use, to which pure hydrogen is already called for, most common application of it, is as bound to carbon-chained gases such as butane.

Now, for canvas to invest in the development of worldwide use of pure hydroge... Well...

Occam one: Would you invest in it?

...We used to call it "Virgin Hydrogen", or mono-atomic as opposed to molecular H2. This has been known for a very long time to be 'Weird' stuff, and has had the scientific community puzzled for well over a century...

Occam two: Puzzled over the fact that it might cost to generate twice than it's caloric value compared to butane driven electricity?

When we used to demonstrate electrolysis in the science museum in Haifa, we took the trouble to inform the amazed visitors, that the output value is about half the input in terms of invested energy, not the other way around, as they might imply by a gist.

....E.S.T. customers are very happy with their product. It's safe, it's cheap, it's efficient, it's highly versatile...

Occam three: Did you buy any of it?

Yours, Yuval

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#71
In reply to #61

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 3:07 PM

I'd have to say this video is an impressively wacky! "Pure energy"? as opposed to what? Dirty energy? Hardly a sentence goes by that doesn't contradict something I learned in chemical engineering school and physics classes. This is the first time I've heard anyone seriously propose that the jury is still out on Stanley Meyer. Everywhere I've looked, he seems to have been convicted: guilty of fraud, as charged.

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 4:16 PM

Hi Yuval,

I think old Occam's Razor could do with a few 'Contemporary' improvements. The trouble with Razors is that they blunt to quickly. I believe that if you feed CO2 in with the Brown's Gas/Whatever, then Chemically Deposited Diamond (CVD) is deposited. My current recommendation is that the "Occam's Razor Company" investigate this phenomenon, and if merited, modify their machinery with a retro-fit Brown's Gas/CO2 micro-flame to deposit CVD at the sharp end of the sheet steel, on it's way to fabricating the finished blade.

Motor Car manufacturers could deposit an ultra fine layer of CVD onto the body panels of their cars. Nothing like Diamond for scratch-resistance. Camera Lenses and Glasses could theoretically benefit as well. Machine Drills and Cutting Tools also.

One feature of these High Voltage Pulsed water dissociation plants, is that I believe independent tests have confirmed ......practically no heat.....read that again.....no heat, is generated in the water being dissociated. Conventional 'Electrolyte' type electrolysis, rapidly heats the water due to Ohmic resistance. hence as you correctly pointed out Yuval,... "the output value is about half the input in terms of invested energy"....Not so here. V = I x R, & Watts are amps times volts. I remember the astonishing fact that de-ionised water is a very good insulator. as good as some transformer oils...Gosh!...One ohm resistance with ten volts, will give 100 watts of resistive heat out, a Milli-ohm at a thousand volts, just one watt! etc. Text book stuff. There is hardly an 'Inventive Step' in that revelation. You can't patent round wheels. 304 type Stainless Steels seems to have made these electrolysis plant viable. pitting on the plates was an early problem, thus solved.

The main mystery seems to be the heating effect of the flame, which itself does not appear to be all that hot? (tempting speculation of thermo-nuclear effects? a dubious claim, but worth investigating)

Tungsten (W) which melts at 3422C, is easily welded. even Carbon at over 4000C melting point, seems to give way to the flame? Put Brown's Gas in a gallon tin can, then ignite it, the can will crumple up as a near vacuum is formed by the 'implosion', put regular bottled Hydrogen & Oxygen into a similar can, and stand well back when you ignite it, bits of can are liable to fly everywhere. Weird and definitely "Wacky"

Scientists like to give the impression sometimes that they are all knowing, subjects that do not have a ready explanation are a bit embarrassing, best brush the subject under the carpet, and ostracize anybody who brings the subject up. Thankfully we no longer burn heretics at the stake.

Marcus Tullius Cicero:-

"Do not hold the delusion that your advancement is accomplished by crushing others."

& "When you have no basis for argument, abuse the plaintiff"

& "By doubting we all come at truth."

& "A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?"

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 7:52 PM

Oops! , Altzeimers on the way, Milli-Ohm?, Sorry folks! MEGA-OHM! Where's my Zimmer Frame?

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 8:37 PM

Dear Alastair,

My use of the razor was to cut through BS of glorifying a commonly known object or method as if re-invented, rather than use the blade to cut through other blades in the general form : "Would you buy it, or would you invest in their development?", as my hesitation from doing so derived from the sense that they overshot their own goal describing electrolysis being under development as such which already started.

It's no I who wrote it. They did on a promotional site and video aimed at attracting investors?

Was I mistaken? Would you invest in it?

Oh-boy... Did you ?

...Not so here. V = I x R, & Watts are amps times volts...

Invested energy is calculated in my books with some, any, common denominator: x amount of watts per hour to disassociate the gas - versus - y amount of watts per hour extracted when gas flame used to drive a dynamo, AC or DC, you choose, I don't mind either way.

Were You convinced of their claim?, did they make any, or did they leave it aside. I would.

Invested energy in my books, is sometimes worth being twice input than output, if it's for some unique, exotic use calling for otherwise unobtained. Then, it is worth investing, exclusively in some given situation.

Which such use would be your choice? Layering Occam razor-tips with CVD?

...Camera Lenses and Glasses could theoretically benefit as well... - Please explain.

Again, don't mistake me for someone who hate hydrogen. I love the stuff, if only for it's glorious part in creation. I love carbon too, much for the same reason. But, should someone come to convince me in the matter of investing in a "...development which by the way already started..." of, say, C4H10, namely the "Blue-Flame Miracle", I'd simply call it Butane, of which I've plenty of in my backyard, for cooking and such, and ask them as blunt as an Occam's razor tip: "would you invest in the development of Butane?"

After all: would any of you invest in the "already started development" of electrolysis?

Jasper

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 10:43 PM

Dear Yuval,

When it comes to my tools of the trade, I am a cautious investor. I would rather wait till I can afford the best, than opt for an inferior tool. Nice tools are a joy to work with. so the short answer is probably NO! but if a well known and respected manufacturer offered an equivalent electrolyser. then given the need, the answer would be YES! and with a big smile. For the simple reason I don't want Gas bottles cluttering up the place, and needing to be constantly refilled.

I have done a bit of surfing on the internet, and I am still puzzled. here is a sample:-

Transactions and Proceedings of the Royal Society of New Zealand...

The President then welcomed to the Council Dr. C. D. Ellyett and Mr. C. W. ... occupying the... http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_88/rsnz_88_04_009020.html

I PRESUME? This is the same Dr. C.D. Ellyett. (However, I am cautious enough to make a check. A Scam merchant could alter a testimonial to suit his needs easy enough. Most folk would just assume it was OK. As they say: "The internet is as reliable as lavatory wall graffiti")

BROWN'S GAS FACTS

Dr. C.D. Ellyett, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Newcastle University, N.S.W., Australia,...

http://amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html

Dr. C.D. Ellyett, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Newcastle University, N.S.W., Australia, prepared an independent technical assessment of Professor Brown's technology in 1986 . Dr. Ellyett has a double masters in chemistry and physics and a Ph.D. in physics. He was Foundation Professor of Physics at the University of Newcastle from 1964 to 1980,. specializing in geophysics. He is the author of 64 articles in various profession al journals and has been consultant to the U.S. government in upper atmospheric and space physics. He has lectured in the USA Sweden, Antarctica, South Africa, Holland, Canada, Singapore, the Philippines, West Germany and Finland. In preparing his observations of the Brown's Gas Generator, Dr. Ellyett went through several demonstrations of the technology, reviewed the U.S. patent, and also reviewed three reports prepared by Dr. John Bockris, various technical reports supplied by a large Australian industrial firm (prepared in 1976), a report by Caltex Oil (1979), and two Australian consultant's report (1979 and 1983). Dr. Ellyett noted that Professor Brown's Gas was considerably different in properties from a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. He wrote: "The resulting differences are so unexpected that they raise initial skepticism in many technically trained people, including the present author, but the weight of demonstration for ces its acceptance. (Just change 'rejection' to 'acceptance'...What a cynic I am!)

"It should be stated here that the study of uses and applications has gone ahead of a complete scientific understanding of all facets of this process. Such a study will probably take several years to complete. However, enough has now been demonstrated to justify the techniques being commercialized immediately, and the first country to do so may in the long run achieve an enormous advantage in many technical processes.Brown's Gas is burnt in a blowtorch. The oxygen combines with the hydrogen itself, and as much energy is released on recombination as was needed to produce the initial dissociation. This results in a high temperature. (Did he write all this?)The product is water. Surrounding air and its associated moisture is excluded so the temperature is not lowered due to this factor, as it can be with other flames. However, at the high temperatures reached, some of the resulting water is again probably dissociated and hydrogen will interact to varying degrees with the material being heated.

The extent of creation of atomic hydrogen and oxygen is presently unknown, but complex reactions occur within the flame and between the flame and the solid, so that some materials being heated reach greater temperatures than others"....etc.

********************

There is loads more if you search, or go to the above link. Also I note a lot of invective flying about, i.e. that Professor Brown was no such thing, just an unskilled electrician...blah blah. We are back in the 'Discrediting game'. Marcus Tullius Cicero warns us about folk that hurl insults. They have generally no argument to fall back on.

You make some good points Yuval, when we get to our age, we have seen a few scams, but I am also aware of quite a few 'suppressions' as well. In my view your best point is "What's so NEW about this OLD stuff?" This is a Wacky Science forum, so perhaps we can shed some light?

http://www.bryzel.co.uk/microflame.htm Mmmmm? Nice looking piece of kit.

General Description
The Micro-Flame gas generating soldering machine has been manufactured in the UK for over 25 years and is acknowledged as an extremely safe, reliable and cost effective way of producing a high temperature flame in the range of
1200 - 3300˚c. It meets all EEC safety and quality standards.

The machine produces an oxygen/hydrogen gas, the characteristics of which can then be altered by passing it through a booster unit. The booster unit is filled with a solution such as MEK (methyl-ethyl-ketone) which changes the calorific value and temperature of the gas flame to suit your particular application.

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#76
In reply to #64

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 10:56 PM

Dear Alastair,

...thermonuclear reaction by hydrogen and oxygen...

Why on earth, would you be taken by such phrase as in above? Even if the originators are this glorious Korean company selling a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, atomic or molecular? - Why?

Unless of course they really did invent a new kind of physics in which hydrogen and oxygen can somehow interact in some meaningful thermonuclear reaction.

If it's about normal, old-fashion physics, thermonuclear is simply about atomic nuclei collision, above 12 million kelvin, to proximate beyond the Coulomb barrier, and thus, to result in the re-allocation of nucleons with higher atomic weight/mass. The energy resulted in the form of irradiated particles amounts to the mass difference between the sum input mass and the sum of output mass, of this so-called "Proton to Proton" (P-P) reaction.

Now, thermonuclear reaction by hydrogen and oxygen, would require some elaboration on their part at least, as this is a new kind of physics to me, which I would very much like to become familiar to.

- Can someone, anyone, enlighten me on the subject?

Yours, Yuval

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#77
In reply to #74

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 11:36 PM

Hey! What ever happened to that thing the Japanese had supposedly come up with, where they used highly magnified Sun light to disassociate hydrogen from oxygen in water? Now that was cool! But then it just disappeared.

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 11:39 PM

Dear Alastair,

I must admit to enjoy this discussion with you, and should anyone tell you otherwise, just ignore it, even at my expanse. So, please take my replies with the kind and playful spirit I have, on my attempts to reply.

- - - - - -

Once again: Hydrogen burns beautifully. So do many H & O mixtures, giving off water-vapors only. Fine. Electrolysis Works. It's more expensive than the result, but it works. Fine.

My concerns are:

1. Why use fancy-shmancy descriptions to submit me into investing in their so-called-new, but in reality, already existing technologies? - Why?

2. Above 1900 kelvin, with any type of flame, you can fuse silica with any steel alloy. Was this the deal-clincher for you?

3. Not everybody with money to invest, may be as technology savvy as you are, and while you hesitate to invest (as you just told us) what would they do, given those fancy-shmance spins and brick-to-rod demonstrations? Would they stand a chance?

4. While I'm not a self-appointed morality-guard of commerce that I may appear to be, I'm still worried that there is a trend behind this clever, well-educated, attempt to fool people to depart with their hard-earned money:

First, because today, money is harder to make than any time in the past, due to globalisation of employment resourcing.

Second, the said trend of the use of pseudo science to convince people to invest, is a "hollow" form of capital-making, much like the "bubble economics" of the late eighties, which utilised some fancy computer jargon and ill-understood reasoning, to convince ignorant investors for the benefit of clever thieves, then-called entrepreneurs.

They indeed were entrepreneurs, only in the new-age venture of fraud.

Yours, Yuval

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#79
In reply to #76

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/14/2007 11:48 PM

Yuval,

"Square on the head" you have hit the nail!

"Balderdash" is a less scatological term. than BS. We are back in Fleischman Pons Cold Fusion Territory. That one is like an old Dracula Movie, he is dead and buried, but turns up again in a sequel. By all accounts Tritiated Acetone cavitated by piezo/pyro materials produced so much neutron emission, the Japanese Laboratory had to deploy thick lead shielding, on heath and safety grounds.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20542/1.html

Bubble Fusion takes next hurdle

Haiko Lietz 18.07.2005

The potential for cavitation to induce nuclear fusion lets physicists think in new directions of energy production

When acetone – better known as nail polish remover – is ultrasonically resonated and irradiated by neutrons, nuclear fusion will occur. That is the claim of the two young physicists Dr. Yiban Xu and Adam Butt from the American Purdue University.

GOSH!.....where is my BIG PENCIL SHARPENER? I might need to point up a wooden stake again.......Drat! I am out of Garlic. better restock.

We are certainly seeing plenty of 'smoke' Yuval, but where is the 'Fire'? You Tube and Google Video are so full of this stuff, it's hard to select a decent presentation to show here. The BBC dis a whole documentary on the subject a while back. They invited Top Scientists to investigate, but there seemed to be no common ground.

There is a problem here. Folk are turned off by Scientific Terminology, it's just another 'Jargon' to them. I am myself terrified of posting 'Mathematical' Notation up here on CR4. It might as well be "The dreaded EVIL EYE" one glance at a square root sign or a large 'Sigma' and most people will move on in a hurry.

The other problem, is that Scientists are busy gentlemen, they don't have either the time or patience to get bogged down in a research effort that looks so dubious at the outset, that on probability grounds, effort would far better be applied elsewhere. They might even miss out on some really important stuff as a consequence. Then let's not forget the financial 'COST'....groan!

I would like to make one very important point, Nanotechnology is desperate for a Nano-Scale power source. You can't put batteries in a Nano-Bot. Most of these reported claims seem to be at the low end of the energy output scale. That could be just what the doctor ordered. So in my view, the effort spent translating this wild speculative and mis-named wacky science, could well yield fruitful dividends.

Communication Skills are needed. These folk are on the internet, all we need do is talk to them, and ask what they are up to. Nicely!

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 12:00 AM

Very nice, but:

...Xu and Butt claim to measure neutrons and tritium – helium-3 is difficult and a proton impossible to measure in the given environment...

as to the required indirect evidence of the fusion, not to mention the high mass-to-energy yield which was evidently absent.

So, what exactly is their base to the claim which follows:

"We can be at least 99.994% sure that thermonuclear fusion of deuterium ions has occurred...

I wonder...

...Folk are turned off by Scientific Terminology, it's just another 'Jargon' to them. I am myself terrified of posting 'Mathematical' Notation up here on CR4...

This is probably because math is often miss-used to further-cunfuse vaque issues, instead of vividly describe them. It's not the math to blame, but instead, people's abuse of it. Math is only a description tool, and most sense it. Scientitst's know it, and that's why math is hardly ever used for the proof of anything other than mathematical or geometrical. The proof is mostly in coherent experiments, only given mathematical description, often to the degree of proximation.

Besides, people intuitively know that math anf jargon are only the "dressing" to their grasp, not the "meat". Hence the famous "If you cannot explain the core of your most complicated theory in one sentence, don't bother, s string of those, won't make it any clearer"

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 12:31 AM

And NOW, Ladies and Gentlemen, in the Red Corner we have Xu and Butt, in the Blue Corner Professor Putterman...blah.

Professor Seth Putterman from the Californian University at Los Angeles thinks, that "the data that [Xu and Butt] presented in the paper is not convincing basically for the same reason as all of Taleyarkhan's papers." Putterman demands a timed coincidence between flashes of light due to sonoluminescence and neutron measurements in a time window of a billionth of a second. Taleyarkhan's group had only shown a correlation to be within a 2 millisecond window. (Foul!..Punch below the belt)

Indeed it is difficult separating the fusion neutrons from the background which is due to the neutron source. Xu says he and his colleague met such concerns by conducting a control experiment. They carried out an experiment with regular acetone, for which no fusion events are expected. In that experiment they did not measure a neutron difference between cavitation on and off:

The referee is counting, 10,9,8,7,6,5,....Wait a moment Xu & Butt are back up off the floor......It seems a correction is needed. The LARGE 'SIGMA' Placard has been raised by the referee.....blah.

Correction The article says that time correlation of light flashes and neutron measurements was only shown by Taleyarkhan et al. to be within a 2 millisecond time window. This refers to the overall time span in which correlations occurred (Phys. Rev. E., 2004, fig.7). Earlier Taleyarkhan et al. had already shown coincidences to be within a time window of roughly 10 nanoseconds (Science, 2002, fig.5a).

Our friend Vermin has a point, what did happen to that Sunlight Separation of water? more 'foul play'? ...let's not go there, Scammers smell money when folk shout 'CONSPIRACY!' ..... Like stealing candy from kids, just claim your cure for both New & Old Monia has been suppressed by the 'Temperance League' for having too much alcohol with the herbs and snake oil. (Watch the 'Goodies Patent Medicine Show')

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#82
In reply to #78

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 1:01 AM

Second, the said trend of the use of pseudo science to convince people to invest, is a "hollow" form of capital-making, much like the "bubble economics" of the late eighties, which utilised some fancy computer jargon and ill-understood reasoning, to convince ignorant investors for the benefit of clever thieves, then-called entrepreneurs.

It doesn't need pseudo science . Who was the American 'entrepreneur' who sold mail order sewing machines (ie needle and thread). I'd buy an energy making device if I could pay for it from the money it saved me . Nobody selling windmills offers payment on a staggered return-on-investment basis - strange . I'll pause before I risk diverging (except to add that most dubious sales pitches rely on the marks greed )

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#83
In reply to #82

Erratum: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 2:56 AM

...much like the "bubble economics" of the late eighties...

I meant to say "bubble economics" of the late nineties, of course. Sorry.

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: Erratum: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 11:24 AM

It's true in any age Yuval - South Sea Bubble C 1720 etc...

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: Erratum: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 11:37 AM

Right, right, I was mainly referring to the 1996 ~ 2001 hi-tek risk-venture start-up bubble.

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#86
In reply to #29

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 12:19 PM

...Historical Nuclear Explosions in India.

I had a rather late , and strange , thought . One School of reasoning suggests we could deal with nuclear waste by chucking it into subduction zones where tectonic plates meet , and here are claims of ancient nuclear type activity at a tectonic boundary under India . I bet that Eric von Daniken would have an interesting explanation for that - God was not just an Astronaut etc .

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#87
In reply to #41

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 12:39 PM

Thanks jack of all trades,

I was rather hoping this issue would come up, the Oklo controversy caused endless heated debate back in the 1970's. "How could a nuclear reactor 'evolve'? naturally"

One theory put forward, was that when this happened nearly two billion years ago,

Discounting THIS HYPOTHESIS:- http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/rael.html

(The little green men theory, a good read all the same, no laughing allowed)

It may have been a result of microbial enrichment. we know that life began about four billion years ago, http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/10.07/15-origins.html

and was fundamentally composed of very small critters, algae, etc. at that time in our history, just as we calculate isotope 'half-life' going forward, we can extrapolate backwards with 'double life' so to speak. The concentration of Fissile U235 would have been much higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrobacter

Citrobacter shows the ability to accumulate uranium by building phosphate complexes, species can have concentrations of uranium in their bodies 300 times higher than in the surrounding environment......Ahah! The blighters thrive on the stuff. The non fissile U238 has a half life six and a third times longer than the fissile 235. It could have transpired that Citrobacter or related species initially concentrated the Uranium and left a sediment at the bottom of a lake, for instance, with a high concentration of Uranium. U235 being more radioactive than U238, might have added a 'selective' component to this witches brew of early microbial activity. Natural enrichment, caused by selective early necrosis of microbes that contained a higher concentration of U235, than their neighbours. The time span for this process could have been very large. bugs that fed mostly on U238 survive and remain in the microbial food chain, i.e. suspended in the lake, microbes that nosh more U235, on the other hand, tend to live shorter lives and sink back to the sediment.

Is that a "Wacky" enough pseudo-science explanation. All the rest could have been geological heating and further concentration. I myself rather fancy the 'Green Man' Theory. Their Flying Saucers had run out of fuel, so they just improvised a nuclear reactor to get them on ther way again.....

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#88
In reply to #70

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 1:25 PM

Hi Yuval,

Quote:- "When we used to demonstrate electrolysis in the science museum in Haifa,"

Now I wonder what a dear friend Dr. Judith Bronski, from Haifa University is up to, Did you ever meet?

She came over here to research High Temperature Superconductivity at London Uni. circa 1990, Those blighters just gave her 'Undergraduate papers to correct' Judith is a world expert on magnetism. I was most embarrassed, we had some lovely long chats, but not much progress has since been made on the HT. Superconducting front. It's one of those fields that could yield huge dividends. At Cambridge circa 1983/4 I did my own research at the Metallurgy Dept and Cryogenics Dept. I used the simple method of examining the literature for signs of constant use. Books just fell open at the most photocopied page......Devious/Sly tricks like that get you ahead. I was in the Copper/Lanthanum Camp......and we won!....Whoopee! We must share information though. winning is not the be-all and end-all.

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#89
In reply to #68

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 3:16 PM

Again, the saddest thing about it, is that behind these hoaxes are the brightest people, evidently needed to convince half-idiots like myself.

Well put. Many scam artists are quite bright. I've often thought, "What a shame that this brainpower is being invested in nothing of lasting value, but simply to shift capital from the greedy to the greedier."

There seems to be a profound need in many people to truly believe in the unbelievable. In the US (as in many countries) we go to great lengths to teach children, at very young ages, to believe in the unbelievable: Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy. Then we eventually tell them, "No we made all that up! But you should believe in one God (or many gods, or a god in three forms, or goddesses, etc.) and you must know that your particular religious view is the correct one." As parents and religious teachers, we say, "Those who do not share our beliefs are wrong: they are infidels, godless, asleep, ignorant, without faith, and so on. We should, according to our faith, either kill them, shun them, tolerate them, "teach" them, or scorn them."

Religion teaches us not just that anything is possible, but that the most implausible things are those things that should resonate most deeply with us: the earth, its mountains and seas, and all the species were created in seven days. Thus conditioned, we easily throw out reason when offered a fantastic mechanism for creating energy out of nothing. We easily throw out our innate compassion when the bible (read: book of choice) tells us that it is OK to own slaves or subjugate women.

You say: People enjoy believing in fantasy. It helps them forget the hardship of every day's life. You're right. To fail to believe in Stanley Meyer's "vision" that you can simply split water, and then put it back together to run a car (with a net energy gain rather than the net loss that nature demonstrates for us) is akin to failing to believe in god. How could one be so crass? Why be a naysayer, when the possibilites are limitless when you open yourself to fantasy (or the new truth, or some authority's version of the truth).

Sadly, such belief in fantasy causes the most profound hardship. Many Americans believed Bush's fantasy version of the war in Iraq: Saddam has Nukes, Saddam and Osama are in cahoots, Shock and Awe, precision killing, Mission Accomplished. etc. The war grinds on, just as many rationalists had assumedit would, as evidenced by the debate before it started. It is only recently that the majority of Americans have begun to shun the fantasy and embrace the rational view. One cost of fantasy: new America haters generated at a rate unprecedented in history. There are 600,000 dead in Iraq as a result of the war, according to medical doctors, who cling to rationality, rather than embracing the fantasy that all this is 1. necessary, 2. good, 3. or easily distinguished from evil.

Fantasy makes it ever so much easier to sleep at night.

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#90

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 4:49 PM

Hi,

"brown gas"

what is this nonsense of atomic hydrogen and oxygen?

These are some of the most reactive gases you can think of and you would get a terrible explosion much more intense than you can imagine and much more intense as molecular H2 and O2, as the energy content is extremely high.

Atomic H and O gases are not at all stable but similar situation of dissociated or ionized gases are used in high temperature welding with argon (as a plasma) or nitrogen as atomic gas may be also ionized.

This is made by blowing the gas through an electric arc, this gas recombining some cm downstream giving a superhigh temperature at near 5000°C.

So if brown gas is simply burning without explosion there is something very different existing. What?

It can be simple electrolysis with subsequent storage inside some absorbing agent similar to the storage of acetylene in acetone.???

But if so then there would be the same or similar power dissipation (heating) as in ordinary electrolysis.

Is there anybody from the contributors of this thread who has seen and tested this "brown gas generator" himself? If so, what type of test?

"sonoluminescence":

This is a high energy but very small volume implosion, search in "Scientific American" they had a superb article on this topic some years ago.

The maximum temperature in these collapsing bubbles clearly exceeds 28000°C, as the spectrum is continuous up to this energy / Wavelength and above the water is no longer transparent so no proof was existing about the true maximum temperature.

But I think it very unlikely to reach 200 million degrees and if so the yield is so small that a suitable power generator is not expected.

This is similar to the "Schwarzschild-Generator" in Perry Rhodan science fiction (more fiction): Their spaceships used a small suspended black hole for generating the necessary energy. No word about suspension and how to isolate and how to feed and how to extract and convert the x-rays but not a bad item to speculate about.

If somebody succeeds in generating a small black hole on earth (or import it from space) it is the moment when earth will blow up in a gigantic explosion.

Have nice dreams

RHABE

(Alistair: what about Mohenjo Daro radioactivity?)

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#91
In reply to #88

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 7:18 PM

Just a humble note:

...research High Temperature Superconductivity at London Uni...

This, an oxymoron by itself, might lead folks to think conductivity and magnetism gets better as temperature goes higher, when in fact, it's the other way around.

Just to be on the safe side, it should be explained that "high temperature" in this context is at the very low temperature of Tc=138 K, that is −(minus)135 °C, called high, only when compared to the natural, ideal, un obtained of zero kelvin (- minus-273.15°C).

P.S: Never met the lady. The Haifa Science Museum is not linked to the Haifa university, but to the Technion, and Rekanatti foundation.

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#92
In reply to #90

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 7:35 PM

...Is there anybody from the contributors of this thread who has seen and tested this "brown gas generator" himself? If so, what type of test?...

Hey RHABE, this should by my question, as a self-appointed Occam questioner here ...

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#93
In reply to #90

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 8:03 PM

I have had a black hole in my possession for a number of years now. It's in my hall closet. I know it's there because I keep stuffing things in there and it all seems to stay put.

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#94
In reply to #88

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 8:08 PM

Off topic for just a second, Carnegie... When wearing a formal kilt, do you wear underpants or are you supposed to go commando?

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#95
In reply to #93

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 8:40 PM

...I have had a black hole...keep stuffing things in there and it all seems to stay put...

Dear vermin,

What a coincidence: they all appear in my mini-wormhole at my garden-shed. For years now, I couldn't tell who's stuff it was, but now I can ask for their description, and should they prove yours, I can re-sell them to you at only half the retail of their origin. My people will get in touch with your people any day now, to discuss some agreeable terms of negotiation, for the prospect of furthering the subject of negotiation to a fruitful advance. Like ?

Your sincerely,

Yotz. B. Flask,

Yokohama

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#96
In reply to #94

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 8:49 PM

A Scotsman never tells (or at least that's what I keep getting told).

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#97
In reply to #88

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 8:54 PM

Dear Alastair,

...At Cambridge circa 1983/4 I did my own research at the Metallurgy Dept and Cryogenics Dept. I used the simple method of examining the literature for signs of constant use...

This indeed is some clever heuristics. When you first hear of someone's all-new theory, and you google the fella to see how many references their name might yield, you get a sense of reality knocking. Many do so, and as a matter of fact this self-search is a part of Google's own algo for the placement of searched objects. The raw number of references, that is.

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#98
In reply to #95

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 9:09 PM

No, no, no, no, no! Whatever you find is yours! I sure as heck don't want it back. That's why I shoved it in there in the first place!

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#99
In reply to #96

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 9:13 PM

Dang! I got $10.00 riding on this!!!

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#100
In reply to #90

Re: Wacky Science - an open invitation

04/15/2007 9:18 PM

sonoluminescence:

This is one of my favorite bits of weird science, and can show up every day in such mundane things as turbines and boat propellers.

Re: brown gas:

Seems doubtful that it works as advertised, doesn't it. It seems that ordinary electrolyzers, in which H2 and O2 are generated, are described as Brown's Gas generators (even though they don't have this mysterious ability to split the molecules). The soldering devices work on this principle, and seem to be lumped together with Browns Gas devices in the "alternative/fringe energy" world. Is there really a working prototype of a machine which somehow produces and uses a gas that is not simply a mixture of H2 and O2?

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