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Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/15/2007 7:38 PM

Dont take it as a tank

In the F1 race, most of car was designed as a rocket outline in order to reduce air resistance. Their base chasis was designed very heavy and has a very low center of gravity to keep stability. After watched a F1 racing program on TV sport channel at meeting room yesterday afternoon. I explained it to an "old driver" of our company. "could we design it as illustration? will it be more efficient?" I draw a sketch and show him. He laughed at and said none saw such car, you upset down it? He knkow my driving level is very bad and can only drive on a path when nobody there.

He believe the odd sketch will be lower speed than the normal car driving along road. So we bet a bamboo basket of watermelon. we are entering into midsummer in China, its hot and everyone enoy this melon..

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#1

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/15/2007 7:56 PM

Lets analysis this sketch:

When the car race normally, the air resistance will be in proportion to speed's square, or cube; suppose square. This ouline will reduce this resistance as same as rocket outline. Besides, the air flow routine at up and bottom is different, so it will get a negative force of Fp according to fluid dynamic. The ground will get a total pressure of (Fp + P), where P = m*g, m sketch car mass ; the sliding friction force is propotion to it, suppose only back wheel was driving, which consequently is thrust force for the car forward. Suppose it was Pf = u (Fp+P); where u –friction coefficient. Suppose the racing car's mass is M, its weight will be M*g. and M*g = P+Fp; so M>m and both of them have same sliding friction force. The sketch car has equation as follow

Pf = fw*v^2 + m*(dv/dt) + 0.01Pf (rolling friction force Fp2) whilst racing car will be

Pf = fw*v^2 + M*(dv/dt) + 0.01Pf so we can conclusively result in the sketch car is faster than the racing car. Where fw is air resistance coefficient. If the four wheels were drived, the direction of Fp2 is opposition.

Totle power will be 1/2* m*v^2 + 1/2*J*w^2 + fw*v^3 +0.01Pf*v. and 1/2* M*v^2 + 1/2*J*w^3 + fw*v^2 + 0.01Pf*v . where the second item is wheels rolling kinetic energy and w is rolling speed(rad/s) and v=w*r, where r is radius of wheel., so if they will have same speed, sketch car will has less energy dissipate.

Who will win the melon in the hot weather days?

The sketch car do looks like a tank.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/15/2007 8:54 PM

"The sketch car do looks like a tank"

No, it looks like an upside down airplane wing, however it is traveling backwards (I think)

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#10
In reply to #2

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/17/2007 9:59 PM

You are right on both counts. It resembles an inverted airplane wing, but the camber (the highest point of the curved portion) should be closer to the direction of travel.

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/16/2007 11:21 PM

I came up with this idea back in the late eighties while in highschool. Im still not sure if it will work due to the obstruction of air flow with the ground.

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#7
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/17/2007 12:59 AM

Pressent F1 cars have (partially) that shape on many parts of their bodies, just where it matters, as determined in wind tunnels.

I think the design in question will lose by a long way, even against the 'back-markers', on any F1 track. Drag will kill it!

Hope the OP's friend enjoys the melons!

-J

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#3

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/15/2007 10:53 PM

Forgive me for saying this but the sketch car looks more like a banana on wheels .

However, Mevel123 seems to have hit the correct description, an inverted airplane wing.

This configuration will tend to pull the car down, improving its grip on the road. Grip improves the car's cornering characteristics but will limit its straight line speed. I've been watching F1 for several years and Goodwin and Slater (regular commentators) give good technical information during the races.

On a track that has lots of curves, the wings of the F1 cars are adjusted for maximum down-force for faster cornering. On tracks that have long stretches of straights or only a few curves, less down-force is needed.

Your sketch drawing will result in a car that has a constant configuration. On a straightaway, your speed will suffer from excessive down-force. However, on a curve, your car will corner faster than the others. How it performs, therefore, depends on the track.

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#4

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/16/2007 2:53 AM

Your design seems to be very low on adjustment possibilities.

In F1 they spend a lot of time and knowledge to adjust to a specific track, driver and strategy.

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#5

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/16/2007 5:27 AM

I just love the golf ball effect wheels...where can I buy a set?

Question from the thread...what is your local 'Betting Currency?'

A pint (of Beer) is standard in UK.....

I bet you pint it isn't !

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#8

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/17/2007 5:09 PM

Well it certainly looks nothing like mine on the left .

I don't know. The outline just seems to be offering too large a target for wind resistance and the centre of gravity is too high. If you went around a corner fast it might roll. About all I can say really, as I only have a basic understanding of Aerodynamics. The last substation I designed could only do about 100km/hour on the back of the truck. It does look a bit like an upside down hatchback car going backwards.

Don't try and drive on the footpath while people are on it, they seem to get a bit anoyed about that sort of thing.

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#9

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/17/2007 6:07 PM

Hello, I think this is a disaster waiting to happen. Here is why. A car is close to the earth or track surface. The banana shape will wedge air under the car and it will fly. If this were an airplane it would be ok but when close to the ground the boundary layer air is attached to the ground and that slows the air way down. This curved shape tries to push more air under the car and off it goes, like a kite. And as you wedge air under the car, the apparent weight of the car lessens and you lose both traction and steering capability. Come to the Bonneville Salt Flats this summer and watch what fast cars do for aerodynamics. And remember, air foil shapes have a large drag component. No lift without drag. Drag is HP.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/17/2007 11:59 PM

i agree, mostly. the case of the car is different than the airplane, due to "ground effects" or the "boundary layer". i'm not an expert on aerodynamics by any means, but the case of a car traveling through the air on the ground is differnt than an airplane wing traveling through the free air.

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#12

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 3:56 AM

Oh boy, all I see are massive problems, think any disturbance on the airflow and your stability would be seriously affected! One thing you have to realise about modern F1 is that the cars are designed for maximum down force and minimum drag, within a set of regulations that are intended to make the cars as slow as possible. Where it not for the constant updates to the regulations, the drivers would have to wear pressure suits and carry oxygen supplies to be able to live through the forces involved. I have heard a member of one of the lower teams say that ten gee in a corner would be easy. Of course, the governing body would never allow it, and quite right to.

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#13

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 9:32 AM

I really want to see someone build this "flying banana car." My guess is that it would do some really cool wheel stands and have a tendency to jump into the air by every bump or crest, only to be driven back to Earth by it's inverted wing shape. I suggest you build an RC version first. Sure would be hoot to watch! Careful though, a full size moch up would undoubtedly result in spinal damage.

Send video of the RC version!

-A-

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#14
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 9:36 AM

I feel obliged to question your siganture line A !

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 9:52 AM

I'm denying everything....

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#16
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 10:11 AM

Is nothing sacred?

-A-

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#17
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 10:47 AM

I thought it was just an arty noir thing like your Nosferatu'esque avatar!

I'm dissapointed now!

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#18
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 11:01 AM

Watch this space!..............No, the blank one at the side....oh, never mind!

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#19

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 12:50 PM

Seens to me it´s a good design for a amphibious F1 .

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#20

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 9:26 PM

Haha, discuss is great!

At the corner, we shall add another wings at both sides and can change its angle when differnet direction turn around. I shall post laterly. to produce a relative centripetal force to keep its stability at high speed corner.( in some race places, many racing car rush to fence due to high speed and unreasonable road design)

Lets back to realism. Can anyone post a formulation thread, so that we can discuss more clearly?

From my illustration, I list several forces and theri direction, any wrong with it? How shall we improve it? How shall we analysis further more?

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#21

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/18/2007 11:54 PM

F1 race car indeed designed carefully by many genius. But is it very idea or perfact without improvement? Im afraid not.

If we love to watch, why dare not to participate in designing? No matter whether they adopt or not, so long as we are preference

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#22
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/19/2007 9:36 AM

F1 is a long list of compromises. Here are a few rule breakers off the top of my head.

Sorry if it's too small to read. It's all kind of irrelevant anyway.

-A-

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#23
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/19/2007 9:08 PM

Its a good illustration. can explain many issues more than text.

I learn much.

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#24

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/20/2007 8:37 AM

I've said for some time now that if FIA removed all the rules, there would be three teams going 300 MPH and everyone else in the dust.

My dream is to see a race where all the limitations have been removed. One race every four years, on an FIA track. The only constraints being: that a human being on board has to direct the actions of the car, the car has to remain in contact with the ground, the car cannot cause damage to the track, nor can it cause damage to near by vehicles (i.e. from jet exhaust).

This means the track is the primary limitation to the designers. The track should be chosen at random after each event to give the designers four years to prefect their car.

I want to see air breaks and g-suits. Six wheeled cars with active suspension. 10.5L W-15 engine with three superchargers AND six duel stage turbos running 200 psi manifold pressure! Liquid nitrogen cooled of course. Ideas and innovation that I could never dream of in a million years.

F1 cars are already so much more advanced than any jet fighter in the air today. Let's take the lid off and see how far we can go!

-A-

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#25
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/20/2007 1:04 PM

Thats what the rule makers are afraid of.

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#26
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/20/2007 1:54 PM

Seriously, keep F1. Those guys run what, 20 races a year? I'm talking about a kind of super car Olympics. One race every four years. Start with a 10 car event and let it grow from there.

The winning country gets to run the UN.

Mmmmmm. . . supercharged 10.5L W-15 with duel staged turbos. Under-square with long stroke. . . pant, pant, I think I have to go splash some cold water on my neck.

-A-

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#27
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/20/2007 9:08 PM

like a rocket car race. terrible speed!

where you can find a race road?

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#28
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/21/2007 3:01 AM

he sad thing is they would no doubt find some idiots prepared to drive these things.

So, I'll see you in the queue then?

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#29

Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/29/2007 3:49 AM

It seems to be able to put an end to the discuss after Ive watched the A1 racing match TV record in Swiss not long before. I noticed that all the A1 car's side section are all made as the similar shape as the top picture show.(of cause the top picture is rather a little exaggerated). But I dont know what different A1 from F1 event? May any fans out there can answer the question? and why the A1 race car has a narrower front wheels than back wheels? it seems a half of wideth of back wheels.

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#30
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Re: Can this car match to other car at F1 equation racing?

06/29/2007 4:48 AM

A1 racing cars are all manufactured to the same specifications. What this means is that no one has an advantage. The race is now between the drivers and not against the machine. One of the unique things about A1 cars is that they have power boost. This is just a device or system that allows the car to get a short burst of power to enable the driver to get ahead at an opportune time. They don't have this ability indefinitely though. At the moment, I think they can use it for only 5 or 6 times during the race.

F1 allows each team to design their own cars but keeping to within certain limits and specifications as dictated by the rules. Everyone uses the same tires but different suspensions. Everyone uses the same type of engine (V8, or is it V6 now) but not the same horsepower. Therefore, you see teams that have a huge advantage over the other teams.

I believe they designed the A1 cars the way they are now to cut costs. This becomes obvious when you learn that the A1 cars are slower than the F1 cars. Their aerodynamics also seem to be less efficient since the cars seem to skid more easily during a race.

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