What Happened to Malaysia Airline Flight MH-17?

These guys are telling us it's a shootdown.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down-over-donetsk-ukraine/

Still too early...

It was blown out of the sky by Ukrainian terrorists/rebels/idiots.

Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine - Malaysian Airlines flight ...

There aren't too many SAMs that can reach that altitude, seems the newer Buks can get to 77,000 feet.

That may be one way to narrow down the field of possible SAMs if the aircraft was really at 33,000 feet. That rules out all MANPADs that I know about.

If this plane was shot down, why don't we see a smoke trail in a video that shows the impact fire ball? CNN in the US was also saying, (speculation?) that the Captain may have opted to fly the Northern route due to thunderstorms alone the Southern flyways. In another video, it shows part of the fuselage with a circular hole with the skin bent in wards like something impacted and penetrated the fuselage from the outside.

My feeling it was shot down, why, only time will tell. But what are the odds that Malaysia Airlines would lose two 777's within a four month period?

Latest intel I have now is the Ukrainian Security Services claims they have audio of a phone call made by Igor Bezler, a Russian military intel officer and leading commanding officer of the Donetsk People's Republic, made at 1600 hrs local time (about 20 minutes after the crash) to someone at the security Services of Ukraine (Vasili Geranin, a Russian Colonel).

Bezler claimed in that call, "We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo."

40 minutes later a second call between two individuals where one individual states, "These are Chernukhino folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhino check point. Those Cossacks who are based in Chernukhino."..."it was 100 percent a passenger [civilian] aircraft."

So far each side is claiming the other is responsible and US Intelligence has confirmed that a SAM was responsible for downing the aircraft.

If the audio is authentic it will surely put Russia in the hot seat for its role in supplying equipment and special forces on the ground in eastern Ukraine.

Things are unfolding rapidly, so there is bound to be a lot of erroneous chatter and misleading facts. We will hopefully learn more in the days ahead.

Buk missiles use proximity fuses meaning that they detonate immediately before impact. We see no detonation. Moreover, even if it were Buk missile which failed to detonate, its trajectory would have carried the 5.5 m, 700 kg missile through the fuselage. We see no debris flying out past the impact point. That was not a Buk missile. It was something else.

Malaysia Plane Crash - New Footage moment plane shot down

It is too early to know the truth. The next few weeks will be filled with speculation and conspiracy theories. If there is a government cover-up, the people will not be privy to the truth. My comment is "No comment".

Very good article - reads air to air - then BUK - so which one will it be? When it is a BUK, there are specialists involved in a command vehicle and they probably can make an inventory of the $100.000.00 plus missile. So who is missing one? Smell the launcher tube.

What good would a SAM be that couldn't reach 33,000?

MANPADs only have, at best, an 11,000 foot ceiling and given how portable a shoulder launched missile is, it is considered a nightmare for airports, both military and civilian.

Doesn't a missile have to be radar-guided/programmed to the target at that altitude?

How did they know the plane would be there in the first place ?

Seems like deliberate, and expert targeting to me.

CNN reported last night that US military intelligence stated they had a launch detection of a BUK type interceptor from within the Donetsk region held by the rebels approximately 15 seconds before MH17 started falling.

There was no distress call from the plane as would be expected if mechanical difficulties were the cause. (From Malaysian PM)

They also reported that a launcher of this type was confiscated by rebels from a Ukrainian base.

There have been Two confirmed surface to air shoot downs of Ukrainian military aircraft by the rebels and one by a Russian fighter.

There have been no surface to air launches by the Ukrainian government to date.

Those were the key point I saw last night on the news.

Yes, as far as I know the system contains a ground based radar to acquire target.

My guess is that someone had a visual sighting of the aircraft at altitude and a snap decision was made to lock target and launch. The systems are designed for fast acquisition because in the battlefield there are no preplanned of published flight plans for incoming aircraft. I'll bet that the crew had no prior notice of incoming aircraft. It was just an opportunist event.

As to whether that person in command cared or took the time to try to identify the target, I have no idea, but these missiles are not cheap.

It's impossible to imagine how a commercial airliner flying at 33,000 feet could be considered a threat by any sane person.

I remember Iran Air Flight 655...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

And discovered this rather disturbing list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

Not a threat. Think target.

Think insane.

If it was deliberate, it was an act of terrorism, not war.

Depends on intent. If they thought it was a valid military target and not civilian, then it is negligence.

All the same, at 33,000 feet?

Flight tracking page for the accident flight (MAS17)

This route is slightly NE of the prescribed route, but not by much.

Pretty typical of the route normally flown.

Flight tracking page for yesterday's MAS17 to show a typical route

Credit: Flightaware.com

It would be more interesting to see the actual mil satellite data for the launch and intercept.

I am sure that the exact location of the launch is known, the type of missile, and its intercept point is and was know minutes after the launch.

Information on that theater is under close scrutiny and is sent to US command headquarters in Germany where every potential launch on that continent is logged.

However, we will never get to see that intel publicly.

I could show it to you, but then I'd have to........................................Never mind.

I'm sure we'll never see it. We may be told what "they" want us to know about it, but...........

"... every potential launch on that continent is logged."

How do they log potential launches?

Whoops, I meant potential lunch. :-)

In the same manner as Dilbert's Boss asking for a list of the upcoming unscheduled outages...

Now I don't see how the f* russians have the ability to disable that tube account you're pointing to. Funny ain't it? Sadly this is no angel world. NOBODY is above my suspicion any more. I'm getting tired of the filthy lies I'm told, time and time again. Better to try to have a look under the surface. S.M.

Thanks for the link. I am not sure I would rate this source as balanced nor even correct on their assumptions, which is pretty much what all of their arguments are based on. They clearly have an anti-American axe to grind and that comes first with their reporting.

My best guess at this point is that Russia is probably the provider of the equipment that shot down the aircraft to the Ukrainian separatists. Russia either directly provided a Buk with SA-17s or Russia transferred a Buc SA-11 captured from Crimea into rebel hands.

Russia, in my opinion, would not have wanted that equipment used against a civilian aircraft, but it may have been operated by a team not well trained.

That doesn't exactly make Russia the guy that pulled the trigger, but Russia would seem to bear some responsibility. It is sort of like you giving someone a shotgun and and that someone uses it to kill someone. You may not have been aware that they were going to do it, but you now have a role in that murder.

I understand that Russia has both advisors and military/intelligence officers directly in combat roles in Eastern Ukraine, however, it seems very remote that a Russian operative would knowingly shoot down a civilian aircraft and unlikely that they would make such a mistake. Yet, that is not totally impossible, just improbable.

We will just have to wait for investigations to run their course. Meanwhile the conspiracists will continue to make a lot of noise.

Well, the NSA has never spied on world leaders, either.

As with most of these situations, the truth will probably never be known.

This was a pretty good copy and past on your part, I'm not sure if other people reading this has caught it yet, Intel? really? probably not. That fact is! we/you will never know what it has to do with. People all day generalize about all sorts of things and make stupid remarks about how smart they think they are and the truth is, if you were any good at it with any accuracy at all you'd have a desk next to mine. Stop thinking about it, it simply does not matter, as the game players whom actually make a difference are many stages above us. If you want to make a difference in life, think about all the good you can do around you. Like: being nice to your spouce, children and others around you, stand up against porn, pay your child support, help others before yourself, contribute to your community, drive the speed limit, stop acting stupid, don't raise bratty spoild kids and then put them in our communitties. If you need any additional ideas I'll be glad to help, assuming any/you understood my undertone. Otherwise it's business as usual.

First, just what are you accusing me of plagiarizing? Be specific, please.

You wrote, "That fact is! we/you will never know what it has to do with."

What are you saying? Is it wrong to speculate based on available information?

You wrote, "People all day generalize about all sorts of things and make stupid remarks about how smart they think they are and the truth is,..."

Just what in my statement do you feel qualifies as stupid? Please be specific.

You continued with, "...if you were any good at it with any accuracy at all you'd have a desk next to mine."

I am not sure why anyone, myself included, needs to sit next to you or must take any professional position based solely on what they are "good at". I have many interests in my life, but the choice of vocation is my own.

Take for example, Tom Clancy. He was very, very good with his accuracy with regards to upcoming military technology and geopolitics, but he was quite content to write fiction.

Lastly, I am not going to quote your remaining words as they are too long, but under what authority have you been vested to tell people what they should do?

At best, all you can expect is for others to take your free advice under advisement, but am not sure that I will need your help, as much as you are willing to offer it and given the way you are serving it, thank you.

Speaking of STUPID REMARKS, you sound like another overpaid government bureaucrat with an inferiority complex, coupled with delusions of grandeur.

The generalizations you made here, without a shred of tangible evidence or proof to back them up, reek of arrogance and stupidity.

Personally, I'd blow my brains out if I had to sit next to you at a desk.

Do you understand my undertone, or is further explanation required?

Well, we have not had a chance to get to the wreckage to examine the aircraft for cause of failure, but there is more evidence surfacing to collaborate the claims it was a frag missile.

The claim with this photo is that it was on the far side of the detonation, which explains the outward penetrating shrapnel.

An onboard bomb would probably produce a similar effect, but there is already a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to a missile as the cause. Time will tell us more.

I've been tied up with my oldest daughter's wedding, so I've been off line.

Anyhow the day after the downing of MH17, CNN had showed a piece of fuselage with a reporter standing in the foreground and this piece of fuselage had a 3.5'-4' punctured hole in it with the penetrating shrapnel bent in-wards, thus no doubt the the other side would show out-wards expansion of shrapnel.

I what do find haunting is the fact we're not hearing the updates about MH17 since Israel and the Palestine conflict started escalating more.

Why the sudden focus on the Israeli/Palestine conflict? Which has been going on since Israel moved in? Is it to move focus away from MH17? Or is it to justify American support of Israel? Or is it to ....... I really don't give a damn, we real need to know how and why 290 innocent people had died because of it.

I when I started this thread I didn't intend for it to be political, but guess when you have two warring factions in the middle of the crime scene, it can't help not to have politics involved.

I just hope who ever shot down this civilian aircraft is brought to justice on a World forum.

I just read that MH17 is really the highjacked MH370, complete with decomposed bodies.

According to this, the entire hijack and shoot down were planned.

"According to this, the entire hijack and shoot down were planned." That statement makes the most sense that I've heard so far. GA from me.

I just can't buy into the theory that a plane can disappear for 4 months, the reappear again, still full of dead bodies.

Busted! MH-17 Was in Fact the 'Lost' Flight MH-370 -- Updates

This is just too much like the (all totally) false 911 theories for my liking.Nit impossible, just very improbable.

Then there's this" Huge: Declassified US Military Files Show Modus Operandi for Flase Flag MH-17

This is just too far out for me.

That is pretty bizarre. Using bodies from the local morgue? I'd have to be smoking some better shit to finish this guy's rant.

As with everything else going on in the world and as sad as it is, we will always have twits with their conspiracy theories. There's as much truth in their theories as there is in our own media here in the US of A. Unfortunately the media controls this country and those who controls the media, well ......

We need to know how and why MH 17 was taken out and what happened to MH 370. The families of MH 370 still don't their family members to put to rest.

It's hard to believe that in today's age of technology, we can't find a missing 777?

Or did they, and not disclosing any details??