Any body interested in a discussion about the Gel battery?

Due to its design this thin film battery is limited to only a few volts at a few mAh. It is designed for specialty low power applications that require very thin and portable batteries (such as smart cards, electronic paper screens, RFID tags, etc).

There are a number of other companies out there producing them

http://www.cymbet.com

http://www.infinitepowersolutions.com

To name a few. Try searching thin film battery on the web for more info.

That idea of large voltage is a discussion lead.

To me the debate there is, does the large area have a cumulative consideration? If it doesn't, then the N & P mass must be considered as a single unit with low resistance. Which I would have thought would have recharged a lot faster. But then, it could be that the recharge feed rate is choked down.

what do you think about the electrolyte idea vrs dielectric?

Well you are sort of looking at it from a "battery vs super capacitor" perspective. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. There are a few batteries in development that have quite high voltages, but the voltage is really set by the specific chemistry used in the battery (for example 3.6V for Lithium Thionyl Chloride).

Sure, you can make a 9V zinc battery by placing 6 AAAA batteries in series, but you cannot expect the internal resistance to be low, just as you can charge up low mAh capacity thin film batteries quickly with a fairly high current. In the end it does come down to internal impedance (which is a fairly simple function of series/parallel current paths) and the batteries ability to dissipate the heat (which is a fairly simple function of surface area).

I try and stay away from understanding the actual complex chemical workings and interactions of the battery (which are really very complex and exceed my understanding of chemistry).

The chemistry may be complex, but the underlying principles are always simple.

In a way, you have reiterated the debate about area as a single unit or not, and impedance or resistance.

And it leads to an interesting point. You can have a large impedance and Voltage in the surface area and never suffer any heat degradation or the need to dissipate heat, through the control of the harnessing rate. e.g. higher voltage terminals, choked down with a zenner or zenners in series , gives you an extra long battery life and the exact amount of power-harness needed. this point refers only to capacitors and not chemical reactions batteries.

And you indirectly lead into the issue of a electrolyte increasing the core temperature of the battery, making the use of such over dielectric highly unlikely. In otherwords, I doubt it if the nature of the plastic contributes any chemical reaction, and its strength and reason for use lies in its flexibility. One could just as easily replace it with paper, like the old capacitors use to be made from.

But anyway, I still think its a capacitor, which in a sense is a battery. And therefore, the plastic or gel probably has high dielectric properties.

Well the internal impedance will dictate how much current you can pull out of the battery, the output current dictated by the load connected to the battery. Inefficiencies in battery voltage conversion will be large if passive devices like resistors and Zeners are used, but fortunately electronic switch mode converters have come a long way and are very efficient now days. Even so, in the end you really need to match the battery to the application to really maximise battery life.

As for the plastic, it is really only a package for the battery (plastic has a lot of advantages). There are a new generation of batteries which consist of printable ink that can can be printed or pasted onto virtually any substrate (paper, plastic, metal, etc) (see http://www.powerpaper.com/ for Super Thin Printable Zinc Manganese Dioxide Batteries).

As for the original NEC battery, its not really a capacitor.

Internal impedance is inescapable for both C's and B's; set by the material used to dope the plastic... assuming that that is the principle NEC employed, thus a capacitor.

The interesting thing is that the current is inversely proportionate with the impedance given voltage balanced by current or impedance. i.e. 10_E/5_R=2_I or 10_E/5_I=2_R That leads back to argument and the validity to suspect high voltage-- one therefore has to consider the amount of current flow ((potential) as you stated being governed by impedance), and it may be as low as nano or micro Amps. considering the thin nature of the material, it is highly likely that the current flow will measure in at least micro amp. So maybe I should reword that opening statement from suspect "high voltage" to large impedance given the charge capacity area.

"Inefficiencies in battery voltage conversion will be large if passive devices like resistors and Zeners are used, but fortunately electronic switch mode converters have come a long way and are very efficient now days."

there are ways to increase power potential and output using inefficient parts. But I'm more interested in some of the switch mode advancements? can you suggest some reading?

oops... I used the wrong symbol. that should be 10_E/5_z=2_I or 10_E/5_I=2_z

If you are an engineer or technician with at least a basic understanding on switch mode power supplies then the best place to start is to have a look at what is actually available now days from the major power IC suppliers (much of which is easily obtainable locally from places like RS, Farnell, DSE, and of course component suppliers). Now days a cheap IC and a half-dozen passive components (or less) will get you a powerful and efficient power supply or inverter. Look at the websites for Maxim, linear http://www.linear.com/index.jsp, ON Semiconductor http://www.onsemi.com/, etc. Most also have good data sections on theory and application.

And its not just SMPS technology that has seen a big technology jump, battery and supercap technology have really got a lot better over the last decade. Checkout the Maxwell 350F 2.5V capacitor http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/medium-cell/bcap0350.asp. Capable of 300A discharge currents and can be acquired locally from Glyn for about $38. Best and cheapest super capacitor on the market available anywhere in the world. Still does not have the energy density of a battery, but you cannot have everything.

Oh what a time to live in.

there's a difference with the power paper, it comes with a ready supply or micro power supply.

but that doesn't mean that NEC didn't use similar methodology

Ah, so its looking more and more like this is capacitor advancement. and no one has offered any other possible ideas. thinbattery states that they're a capacity battery.

What are you involved with Jack? By the sounds of things, you have an electrical engineering company of some kind.

As my handle suggests, a man of many things. Primarily power distribution and transmission for the lines companies (up to about 33kV), but also hazardous area protection, lightning protection, alternative energy power generation, substations, specialty consumer products (the list goes on). Oh, and of course power generation and storage R&D (which I try and keep up to date on current developments).

The lines between battery and capacitor are getting more and more blurred (and its not just due to the marketing devisions either).

lol, maybe some glasses are in order? '\o^o/'?

You're a man of many talents, and a handy guy to have around.