Acid Rain. Will it make a comeback?

Anytime you want to see the results of acid rain, you're welcome to join me on a hike in the Adirondacks. I can show you a lot of dead ponds and stands of coniferous trees that have been damaged by acid rain. We can take measurements of the pH levels if you'd like...

So you agree?

For some reason, I read your post as facetious. My mistake. Yes, I agree 100%. This is actually a very timely issue with American Electric Power Co. agreeing to a $4.6 billion settlement over violations of the Clean Air Act. I live in a region that has been directly affected by pollution from coal-fired plants, and not just in terms of acid rain, but increased rates of illness; especially asthma. Not at all saying that coal-burning is the sole reason, but it plays a significant role.

Yes, I see as I re-read my posting.

I am simply surprised that the powers that be have not incorporated the two events under one science.

Down here in the south we had local media playing this (acid rain) up so much that schools held meetings about what to do with children outdoors should the weather turn (kids always come inside when it rains at school so it was nonsense) and animal health and on and on and on. All the while there was no significant cause for such concern in the region. But the issue played very well at prime time. Also the results of efforts such as the Clean Air Act did not take long to become a reality.

So, having said all that, it just seems a perfect opportunity for those wishing to further the GW agenda to incorporate AR in to the 'science' to promote their cause at a more familial level.

Certainly meant not to downplay the reality only to recall the hype.

cr3

Just because we don't hear much about acid rain lately, doesn't mean anyone thinks it doesn't exist, or that it has gone away. My parents live in New Brunswick, Canada, and are affected much the same as Chris is in his neck of the woods. It's common practice to have to neutralize the soil PH in order to be able to grow anything other than black-eyed Susans.

But we read plenty about smog, air and water pollution nowadays, especially in Asia.

Why the focus is on global warming is because it is just that, global. The whole planet has to wrap its head around it in order to have any significant effect on it.

My understanding is that progress in curbing GW would also alleviate the other problems to some extent, and I imagine many others feel the same, that they are inextricable from each other.

The other problems could be marginalized, to some extent, as the localized problems of large cities, etc.

But with GW, we are all in the same boat, so to speak. And as such, I hope it is a unifying wake-up call that isn't too little, too late.

You Wrote: "But with GW, we are all in the same boat, so to speak"

Unfortunately we aren't all in the same boat in this. Wealthier nations have a better ability to adapt to shifting climate than poorer countries, and some pacific island nations are basically becoming refugees as their islands sink below the waves. Some countries stand to benefit from this remarkably enough (Russia, Canada, for sure but others will emerge from the shifting climate).

My of my concerns about global warming is the ph levels of the oceans. We have to understand that if CO2 levels get too high the upper layers of the ocean become slightly acidic which could have huge effects on fish populations and marine ecosystems. The effects of rising of ocean temperatures and pH can already be seen by the reduction of coral reefs which are sensitive to these changes.

Unfortunately we aren't all in the same boat in this. Wealthier nations have a better ability to adapt to shifting climate than poorer countries, and some pacific island nations are basically becoming refugees as their islands sink below the waves. Some countries stand to benefit from this remarkably enough (Russia, Canada, for sure but others will emerge from the shifting climate).

For the most part I tend to agree. But I would not bet a life on it. Remember, these comfortable accomodations we pride ourselves for having now feel as a silk necktie. But given a significant calamity, they might be more like lead shackles.

Simply saying that many small countries/cultures are more resilient more plastic more dynamic than the big lumbering ogres that are us.

I tend to think that if some horrible catastrophe wiped a huge portion of humankind off the face, that on some few sparsely populated islands we would start over with. Yet again.

cr3

That first vote is mine.

Regarding Global Warming:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/ap_on_sc/global_warming_humidity

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/264903

Regarding Acid Rain:

The most effected region is Eastern Canada, which is why we don't here much about it here.

http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/msc/as/acidfaq.html

Could use a litttle acid rain around here as the soil ph is too high.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:G7qWOQC6qiIJ:image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2001/08/14/warming.pdf+Bj%C3%B8rn+Lomborg&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

This guy advocates looking at the whole picture & getting the most bang for our global warming buck.

It's certainly good that we are finally having discussion about human's impact on the planet.

The answer to a lot of our problems is fusion power. If anyone reads this, please keep in mind there is a difference between fission and fusion and I'm advocating the latter.

But why invest in developing Fusion when we can make useless grain alcohol.

I think grain alcohol goes well with soda & cigars.

Actually the answer to our immediate problem is fission power. Fusion would be nice, but we are not there yet. In the mean time fission is relatively clean.

No atmospheric impact, and while there is radioactive waste, it is contained in a building. The radioactive waste associated with a coal fired power station is spewed all over the countryside...

Let the flogging begin!

No flogging as long as we can put all the plants & store all the waste in Texas.

We have worse than that in Texas, bring it on....

Just dump it all in the Gulf of Mexico. Everybody else does.

When I lived in New Orleans & read the Times-Picyune. there would be be articles about injecting hazardous wastes from the chemical & petroleum industries 2000 feet down. Supposedly since it was so far below the water table that there would be no long term effects.

"Fusion would be nice, but we're not there yet"

I agree, which is why I think it would be nice to start aggressively funding the research in it rather than subsidizing ethanol.

"No atmospheric impact"

Unless there is a melt down, then you get all kinds of problems. Meltdowns won't happen with fusion.

It takes a long, long time to create a fision plant and the costs are much much higher than would be the case for Fusion. The fuel is more expensive, the waste is more expensive. Fusion would provide the energy that comes in a barrel of oil for 1000ths of pennies. That would supercharge our economy. Think of the disposable income everyone would have.

somehow, shell & exxon, haliburton...............

will figure out how to lock up a key ingredient, component, technology......

we need widely distributed generation/production capibility, @ Least this would minimize line losses & provide more jobs/gigawatt.

energy innovation will be the growth opportunity, fusion should be part & don't bother w/hydrogen.

Ouch,

I represent that statement....

Have you looked at the pebble bed reactor? Has some promising features....

I hadn't heard of it, so I've read up on it now. From what I can see, although cleaner and safer than traditional fission reactors, it's still a fission reactor. There's still radioactive waster. The fuel is still expensive.

Even worse, none are operational yet (though some are in the process of being built).

No, I will continue to say that the solution is Fusion and we need to divert significant resources to develop the necessary theory and technology.

Find a way for politicians to make money by propagating fear,hype, unsound science about acid rain and I am sure you will see this issue return to the public eye. We could see the inception of sulphur credits!! Eventually far into the distant future all of our periodic elements will have some sort of credit program(then who knows we could move into various molecule credits!!). All in the name of rightiously fixing problems in all the wrong ways with unsound data all the while stuffing the pockets of the politicians/ex-politicians, corporations and figure heads with money!

I have an idea why dont we create money credits!! In our rightious attempt to fairly distribute wealth through out the population. Cause its prooven science that huge concentrations of cash in a small localized areas can be harmful to human morals, common sense, rational thought and ego! It would work just like carbon credits. Those with an abundance of money get money credits for distributing their wealth LOL!!

Joking aside now, Acid rain is one of the many environmental issues that can be said to be manmade, unlike some others. It would be nice to see large scale effort of people and corporations to rectify the envornmental damages the human race has exacted on mother earth for the right reasons not personal glory,profit,fame etc. It would be nice to see sound science as the major determining factor in these projects not media hype, corprate and private sponsored programs with personal profit as the main goal. Sometimes I descend into idealism and optimism that was refreshing and slightly depressing as I return to reality.

"Will it make a comeback?"

It is interesting that you ask this question just now. Virtually all coal-powered generating plants in the US are in the process of adopting Wet Flue Gas Desulfurization (FGDS) to remove sulfur from the exhaust stream. This technique passes the SO2-containing flue gas through a calcium carbonate solution to transforn the sulfur compounds to calcium sulfate dihydrate (gypsum). Unfortunately, it has been discovered that as the CaCO3 reacts with the SO2, the solution pH drops and sulfuric acid forms. The sulfuric acid can be seen exiting the stack in a phenomena called "blue cloud". In order to eliminate this sulfuric acid release, a secondary scrubbing system is now being added to the FGDS. Also, in addition to gypsum, the other reaction product is CO2.

Just goes to show- its always something!

Bill Morrow

I grew up in Pittsburgh during the time when Allegheny County started with "smoke control" (i.e.:initial reactions to air pollution). Prior to that time (1946), it was difficult to see across the street and many people had respiratory problems. The regulations had a significant impact on how industry and individuals had to deal with heating there homes and/or providing energy for everydy operations.

After graduation from Engineering school, I became involved in Research into numerous phases of fuels technology, especially as it was applied in the steel industry. That included byproduct cokemaking operations as well as boiler operations, air pollution control, etc.

While I agree that clean air and clean water are a desirable target and I worked to achieve same during my employment, one has to remember that the Law of Diminishing Returns is always active. It costs a lot more $ to remove the last ppms of any given pollutant for the exhaust gases than to remove the first 99+% of the pollutant. One of the reasons the US no longer has a strong position in steel and many other manufacturing operations is that ever tightening governmental regulations have required industry to spend ever more money on pollution control. While labor costs have a major part to play in forcing US industry off-shore (for example, to China), pollution control regulations are a close second.

Once during research into air pollution in Allegheny County, I read an article that traced what was written about the levels of air pollution in that locale from the 1750's to date (I believe the article was published in 1964). The article clearly pointed out that air pollution was much wost in the 1750's.
Clearly air pollution needs to be addressed and quite frankly I believe it is more an issue than "global warming", but the current "hot button" for politicians is GW (courtesy of the media). Guess which will get the priority. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and the media has a darling project....

It's the weather patterns coming from China over the Pacific which will bring this to light again. The California legislature is already looking to publicize the effects, which will seek to limit the emissions from China, as the ocean becomes polluted with Acid rain via coal fired energy production.

Of course we'll have to start measuring in parts per billion, instead of millions, but it will activate the wackies, none the less.

This will bring air quality concerns to the for front and raise the price of fissile materials, as the demand for clean energy drives nuclear demand.

(Or nuc-u-lar, if you choose to continue saying it that way).