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Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/21/2020 7:41 AM

Expansion of the universe illustrated with magnets?
The image above shows a ring magnet with a small magnet epoxied into the center.
The two magnets(ring and center) are opposite polarity.
There is a small moveable magnet on the side of the ring magnet
The north side of the ring magnet is up on the disc,and the south end is up on the center magnet.
The moveable small magnet is repelled when near the outer edge of the ring magnet,when the small magnet is north side down.
If you move the small magnet,same polarity, nearer to the center,it is attracted to the center,which is south polarity.
This I think may illustrate the attractive/repulsive nature of gravity.
When objects are close,they attract,but when separated,they repel.
It is not a perfect illustration,but basically the same as the expansion of the universe.It would work better with more space between the center and outer disc,but I had these lying around so I used them.
Constructive comments are welcome,as always.

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#1

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 10:17 AM

What you are proposing is a form of MOdified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) to explain our unexpected observations without relying on the mysterious forces of Dark Matter and Dark Energy. MOND very well may be the true reason for our observations but it has yet to be accepted or provide measurable insight.

To me, there are many things appealing with MOND but how one tests for this solution is always the rub.

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 2:28 PM

Thanks for the link.I had never heard of this until now.

It is more grist for the mill to digest.

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#2

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 11:32 AM

Sorta, kinda, maybe - but then, the epoxy is a most critical element, isn't it? Stronger than all other forces being "exampled." Without epoxy, what happens?

By His power is the universe held together...

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 2:26 PM

Of course you realize this is merely a construct generating forces with characteristics similar to the expansion force of the cosmos.

I could not create an EXACT copy or I would get the Nobel prize.

The epoxy merely maintains the proper orientation and spacing between the magnets,and simulates space between objects in space.

If I were to construct it on a 1 to 1 scale,the epoxy would be billions of light years in size,but I just don't have the time.

You are free to create a better model and I would be pleased to see it.

Perhaps a spherical model that would work in 3 dimensions?

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 11:18 PM

Hi Red Neck,

Besides, I wanted to try that experiment at full scalle and when I checked with home depot, they didn't have enough epoxy in our galaxy.....LOL

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#3

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 1:49 PM

There is a theory that anti-matter is repelled by gravity from matter, although it is not widely accepted. Dark energy would then be explained by antimatter in cosmic voids causing expansion.

https://phys.org/news/2012-01-repulsive-gravity-alternative-dark-energy.html

https://phys.org/news/2012-01-repulsive-gravity-alternative-dark-energy_1.html

According to General Relativity, gravity is not a force but due to curved spacetime. Curved spacetime tells matter how to move, and matter tells spacetime how to curve. The first part seems pretty straight forward, but the second is a mystery.

AFAIK, no one knows what causes matter to curve spacetime, or whether antimatter would cause it to curve in the opposite direction. Measuring the effect of gravity on antimatter is no easy task since the high energy of most antimatter produced obscures the effects of gravity.

"Most methods for the creation of antimatter (specifically antihydrogen) result in high-energy particles and atoms of high kinetic energy, which are unsuitable for gravity-related study. In recent years, first ALPHA[1][2] and then ATRAP[3] have trapped antihydrogen atoms at CERN; in 2012 ALPHA used such atoms to set the first free-fall loose bounds on the gravitational interaction of antimatter with matter, measured to within ±7500% of ordinary gravity,[4][citation needed] not enough for a clear scientific statement about the sign of gravity acting on antimatter. Future experiments need to be performed with higher precision, either with beams of antihydrogen (AEGIS) or with trapped antihydrogen (ALPHA or GBAR)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_interaction_of_antimatter

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 2:45 PM

My theory on warping of space by matter is this:

IMHO:

Space time is in motion at the speed of light.

It passes through all objects with mass,but in doing so,it is refracted,like light in water.

It does this in 4 dimensions.

It take longer for spacetime time to go through the circuitous path through mass than around it in free space.Time slows down near massive objects.

It is the crooked path of spacetime that causes this.

The speed limit of light is the speed of space time.

It cannot be exceeded in this dimension;it is a "boundary".

There are things in motion relative to each other,but must be below the speed of light.

There may be dimensions where the speed of light is the minimum speed,and anything slower will drop into a different dimension (like ours?).

Perhaps other dimensions are "sprinkling" objects that lose velocity into ours in the form of quantum particles that pop in and out of our dimension?

The explosive forces when they meet propels them back above the speed of light and they "disappear".

Jus' thinkin'

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: illustration of cosmic expansion with magnets?

01/21/2020 11:48 PM

You have fried my brain

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#9

Re: Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/23/2020 12:25 AM

Hi HTRN, it's been some time since I last visited here, but am still kicking (somewhat).

Your illustration is a little misleading w.r.t. the modern knowledge of 'dark energy', because it is not gravity that changes from attraction to repulsion, but rather a cosmological constant (also known as 'vacuum energy') that can 'stretch' space over time.

When things are closer, gravity overcomes this 'stretching', but at large distances, things 'ride with space', so to speak. So to be more true to observation, you will need an expanding ring.

The interactions between gravity and vacuum are slightly complicated - recall that some 10 years ago, we collectively tried to design The Perfect CR4 Cosmic Balloon. We did not quite succeed, but in the end we got it to work the brute force way, utilizing a few down-to-earth air pumps with a controller programmed with the latest cosmological algorithm...

=J

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/23/2020 6:48 AM

Hi Jorrie,

It has been a long time since last we heard from you,and have missed your valuable and sage advice,guidance and suggestions.

Glad you are still around and kicking,albeit,like myself,not kicking as high as we once did.

Magnets are fascinating to me,and always have been,and I was playing around with a few that I had lying around when I noticed a similarity to the cosmic expansion.

I realized it was not a perfect illustration,so I placed a ? mark that the end of the title.It does,however allow a demonstration of the effect,not the actual forces at play.

The magnetic scenario leaves a lot to be desired,but it is the best I could do with what I had lying around.I hope it did not confuse anyone.

You are correct,I would need an expanding sphere,and it would have to be the size of our cosmos to be true to form.

Perhaps a"cosmic balloon" with oriented nano-magnets on the outer layer would make a better model?

Question is,how to orient the magnets uniformly..perhaps a strong magnetic pulse in the center of the balloon?

I am imagining a bubble rising in a viscous liquid,accelerating as it rises.

The particles near the center would be "stuck" there,but other particles would be attached to the outer "surface" and travel with it as it expands.

I am open for suggestions.

It is GREAT to see you back again.

HTRN

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/24/2020 1:37 AM

"Perhaps a"cosmic balloon" with oriented nano-magnets on the outer layer would make a better model?"

Perhaps... The nano-mags should clump together, but there must be many clumps all over the balloon skin that are moving apart as the balloon inflates.

As far as the bubbles are concerned, remember, there is no center on the skin and the inside of the balloon does not count. The reason is that our cosmos does not seem to be like a balloon with a curved surface at all. The surface seems to be perfectly flat en going on forever, but also expanding on the large scale (above galactic cluster size) everywhere.

Clusters are being kept together by their own gravity of matter (mainly dark matter), so each orbits around its own common center of gravity. So to get a mental cosmic model with your magnets, you should try and make them spin as individual clumps and let the expansion between clumps be done by the inflating balloon.

=J

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/24/2020 10:20 AM

It's good to see you back Jorrie! I don't often comment, but I always enjoy reading your posts. You have helped a lot of readers have a better understanding of our universe.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Illustration of Cosmic Expansion With Magnets?

01/26/2020 12:38 PM

Welcome back, Jorrie.

When things are closer, gravity overcomes this 'stretching', but at large distances, things 'ride with space', so to speak.

That's the best I've ever seen it explained!

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