Hydro Assist Fuel Cell

Dav, thanks for posting, you may have saved me a lot of grief.

But here it says running lean can cause poor performance, and engine damage

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question257.htm

I assume that's what these chips do? But how can that add to horse power? They say the best ratio is "14.7 : 1" so are you and these chip companies saying that it's not? and that all engines are running too "rich" and need to be leaned down, to increase MPG?

Does the engine measure how much air, and fuel goes into the chamber, or does it only measure the fuel? Snapping on a hydro assit unit, but without any computer stuff should, at first, make the O2 sensor read as if the engine is running too rich because there's less "air" to fuel ratio, as the HHO gas takes up a little space in the chamber. If the computer is programed practially and simple then it should, lower the amount of fuel, taking the ratio back to 14.7 : 1. I would think the HHO gas would be neutral, as it only sends more water out of the exhaust, and it doesn't mess with the ratio's except that it takes up room in the chamber, and adds power.

Would more water/vapour out the exhaust make the sensor think it's humid out? If so how does the computer react?

are there other sensors that I need to worry about?

Hi Buzneg ;

You are correct; leaning out a motor can cause pre mature detonation; which ; if left unchecked can lead to serious engine damage. Most modern cars; have a knock sensor which detects this issue ; and retards timing - which stop pre-mature detonation; but also kills MPG / power.

True "power chips" [Jegs, SuperChip] usually do a number of things:

1 - Change timing ; but require the car run on high[er] octane fuel.

2 - Change the fuel mixture ; to the limit the car can handle. Most factory settings are set "safer" than required.

3 - If more power is desired; in some cases this chip riches the mixture at certain RPM[s] / under certain power conditions. [ie full throttle].

4 - Change power curve and/or shift points of the transmission.

5 - Require changing to a colder thermostat.

RE; A/F ratios;

This is the IDEAL ratio; however some modern cars can run leaner than this ; especially with modern sensors. Keep in mind your A:F ratio can vary from 8:1 [cold, rich mixture] to 17:1 or slightly higher.

The other issue when you "run lean" besides pre-mature detonation ; is higher NOX emissions. Lean means hotter... hotter burn = more NOX. However this will trip the O2 sensors ; and activate a specific system to combat NOX emissions.

RE: Add hydro assist."
The O2 sensor ONLY measure the amount of "oxygen" in the exhaust ; which is used to determine how well the mixture is being burnt. If too lean ; the computer makes the mixture richer. Keep in mind there are 10-20 sensors on a modern engine all working together. However; it is the most direct sensor when it comes to MPG.

The Hydro assist - there is not enough "Brown's Gas" created at a fast enough rate to actually effect the fuel system or MPG directly. It is not that "Brown's Gas" is not a fuel or would affect it; the problem is the RATE of creation of this VS the amount the engine needs to make a difference.

To understand this better; you have to consider how "Nitrous" works and how much is consumed to CREATE a 50% increase in power for a short period of time.

First; "Nitrous" ; or Nitrous Oxide ; increase HP because it contains 40% oxygen VS standard old "earth air" at about 20%. An average NOX system can increase horsepower 50% or more for a VERY short duration of time ; then the NOX is done; and you need a new bottle. The pressure NOX is injected varies from 10 PSI and up. It is usually much higher that this for "real power".

Likewise supercharging or turbo charging compresses the AIR and forces it to move faster into the engine; increasing power by making the engine work more efficiently. Again ; the pressure is 3 psi or higher. Average of 7 PSI for real power.

If the "Brown Gas" was coming out at 3 PSI - measurable - or higher THEN it would DEFINITELY affect the engine performance and I would buy one in heartbeat. You could FEEL 3 PSI of pressure on your finger. This level would require 10X the amount of gas to be created.

Also ; if this was the case; then this "presure" would have to be REGULATED and there would be a regulator ; as this would have to adjust due to varying engine loads / rpm.

RE: Water/vapour and O2 ;

No; this would make no difference; as there is water vapor already in the exhaust from normal gasoline burning ; plus a few other nasties:

1 - H20 - water vapor.
2 - Raw Unburnt fuel.
3 - Carbon Dioxide.
4 - Carbon Monoxide.
5 - Nitrous Oxide.

2,4,5 are what your catalytic converter is there for...

RE: more sensors...

Yes ; and they are all interconnected. It's a nightmare.
Hope this helps,

D

does heating the fuel cause an increase in MPG? If so why?

why does supercharging (compressing to fuel more) cause an increase in MPG?

If you know this, you will see the connection.

RE: heating fuel ;

Heating the gasoline prior to vaporization increases the vaporization rate - the efficiency of it ; better rates = better mixing with air = better burn ... this equals better power / MPG and less emissions. This is CHANGING the mixture.

However; because of how fuel is fed to injectors; the fuel temp is kept at the temp of the environment ; instead of being heated above this level. You would have to change the fuel injection system to fix this issue. Smoky Robinson actually made something that increased MPG using this principle combined with exhaust heat. Google him and his 50 MPG Fiero.

RE: Supercharging; this does not increase MPG. It increases the FLOW rate of air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber. As supercharging / turbocharging is used when the engine is under load as opposed to maintaining a constant speed; any MPG effects are cancelled out.

Putting more air/fuel in just increases power; not MPG. To increase MPG the mixture itself must be modified and how it is burnt in the engine; as well as waste heat recovery and so on.

A Diesel engine is a perfect example of how burning the fuel differently results in a 30-40% increase in MPG over a gasoline engine. It should also be noted that diesel fuel has more energy per gallon than gasoline.

I want to be clear here - there are LOTS of ways to increase MPG ; and it is very clear big oil and big auto DO NOT want to increase MPG. If it is legit ; I would buy it in a heartbeat.

supercharging does not increase the compression in the chamber very much? I do know that increased compression does increase MPG. The connection that I'm trying to make is that increased heat = more mpg, also increased compression = more mpg, more compression = higher heat. So higher heat = better mpg.

Supercharging does increase pressure in the intake; it also increases the mixture's ability to explode VS non supercharged. Which creates a new problem - denotation.

As a result ; supercharging requires changes to spark timing. However; supercharging increases the volume of air/fuel that gets into the cylinder NOT the cylinder's pressure or compression ratio.

You are correct; more compression can yield higher MPG; but NOT using this method.

Here is why ; if you have 7PSI "boost" ; that means the mixture is under a pressure of 7 PSI . However; the compression in the CYLINDER is 125 PSI before ignition. A supercharger does NOT affect this critical compression level that is why it does not lead to better MPG.

Supercharger just helps get a higher volume of air-fuel into the cylinder only.

In order to get more compression ; that yields higher MPG; this compression increase must be caused by compression of the mixture in the cylinder itself. This is why a diesel gets more MPG VS Gas. Compression of the mixture is 8:1 for Gas, 20:1 or higher for diesel.

Higher compression leads to a more explosive burn = better MPG.

So if you want to get better MPG; in this context; the cylinder compression must be raised... but that leads to detonation as well; so you have to use higher octane fuel - which costs more [ironically ; it costs less to make! ] .

why does high compression lead to more explosive burn, and better MPG? The energy that was put into the compression would come back out as the same amount.

Higher compression results in more heating of the mixture prior to ignition ; as well as the mixture more explosive because the air/fuel is more compacted. The point here is where in the engine this compression occurs.

The energy is not equal because one is mechanical force - compression; and the other is chemical force/reaction- explosive. They are "apples" and "oranges" so to speak. If they were equal a car engine would not function.

yes but were is the energy coming from, you're not getting more energy out of the fuel so you must be losing less energy to heat. The heat exits out the exhaust, or the chamber walls. So why is less heat escaping? My theory is, that because the mixture is hotter, and all or most chemical reactions happen faster when hot, so maybe a faster burn makes for less heat loss?

This is the most common explaination for why HHO units work. HHO is not to add power, it's to help ignite the fuel faster. There's many spark pugs for sale on the net that claim the same thing.

I agree ; the THEORY is sound ; the problem is the rate of production is not high enough - 50-70L of HHO gas per hour. There is not enough Hydrogen / Oxygen being created to affect the fuel mixture at the RATE the engine uses air/fuel mixture. The rate would have to be 10 times this amount min to achieve a difference in the MPG.

In addition; due to how modern fuel injected vechicles pump fuel - from tank to injectors back to tank to maintain the a low fuel temp ; the added "fuel heater" will not work either.

D

it was smokey yunic, heating the air after the throttle body would have the same effect, maybe not fifty mpg but an increase

For more information and less heat -

for hydroxy

<http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/>

and here look at tractor # 22 for a french version of the pantone system

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fquanthomme.free.fr%2fpantone%2fPageM_David.htm

Saw the ad, visited the website, was wowed by the sales pitch. Wanted desperately to believe it was all true. OK--Rule #1 of financial self-defense: if something offered is too good to be true it probably is just that.

What's being offered here is a physical impossibility--a perpetual motion machine disguised as a fuel economy device. In high school physics we learned that the Law of Conservation of Energy for bids such a thing.

In order to generate all that hydrogen fuel from water (i.e., separating it from oxygen) you will necessarily need to input more energy than you can recover through the combustion of that hydrogen, a process of explosive oxidation which returns it to water.

This company is claiming that their machinery will not only recover that all energy, but multiply it so extravagantly as to double or triple your gas mileage. If this could be done, we'd never need any of that gasoline in the first place. Hydrogen-powered generators could generate a tidal wave of surplus hydrogen and fuel cells would would wash oil from the planet overnight.

As it is the Hydro Assist Fuel Cell will probably just rinse the cash from the wallets of those who rush forward, dazzled by delusions of savings and environmental ecstasy. Hey, I want it to be true, too. But I ain't gambling any money on it. Stay tuned for the avalanche of scandal to follow if enough suckers bite.

Post Removed by CR4 Admin due to language

Awesome,

Please let us know HONESTLY how it works out. Data, pics, videos and what not. I cant say weather this thing works or not. But, given the poor video and 3rd grade experiments shown on the web site its hard to believe. This Dennis Lee guy does not have a very good track record either.

I saw the big black excursion in my friends driveway last night (mentioned in #65). Her husband is in the Navy like myself. He is on deployment right now and if this fucking thing does not work he will come home to nothing. So, I do hope and pray this is not just garbage...

But, I just can't wrap my mind around all the BS I have seen with the HAFC, PICC, Dennis Lee, and all the crap associated. Look up the GEET system designed by Paul Pantone and supposedly sold to Dennis Lee. Sounds a lot like the PICC that Lee claims to increase mileage 900%.

A 10K ohm resistor put in place of my air intake temp sensor tricks the ECU in my 2002 neon which gives about 15% better mileage and better throttle response. That resistor was 99 cents... If the acetone/xylene/(GP-7 from Torco International) mixture does what it says it does on brightgreen.us then that would be another 10-15% increase.(That is the magic colalizer that comes with the HAFC).The fuel heater does work (already discussed) IF you do not have a circulating fuel system. (check the fuel rail). I will try this on my neon hopefully soon. The magic magnets hook up to a heat source. Just like the red fuel heater on this page. http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/fogger.htm. Now that could potentially be another 5-15% increase. Thats a 30-45% increase for maybe 2-300 bucks. WTF!!!!!!!

Of course, most of this info from these sites could be bullshit also, but at least it doesn't cost me 1500 bucks to find out. All the stuff there you can produce yourself. By the way, my friend told me that the miracle PICC is estimated to start at $3000.

Thanks, Dan H.

Sorry for the run on.

Hi Everyone ;

Why don't we open a discussion and LIST all the things that do work to improve and maintain good MPG ; as well as all the things that need to be checked to ensure a good solid baseline?

There is a LONG list of known methods to improve MPG ; and just as big of a list of things to check on your own car[s] to ensure just the basics are operating correctly?

In otherwords; lets work on making certain your car is in "tune" and then add MPG to that baseline? Now that would be a great discussion and all save us a tonne at the pump... and over the long term too.

The devil is truely in the the details when it comes to giving OPEC the Finger..

I am talking to you too Mr Vagina...

D

let's figure out something that works, then start an internet business selling them. Then use the money made to R&D more things that work.

A car that runs on anything with a Hydrogen atom in the molecule, is possible.

Energy is all around us, and chemistry is just quantum physic's. There's lots of potental.

Thanks David12,

Thats a great idea. Heres the new discussion. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/17581/REAL-MPG-GAINS

Dan H

Nice vocabulary there, NOT. Sorry I'm working on my own stuff and would love to see something positive about this. So if it don't work please take your own advice and have balls enough to report that also with as little bias as you can manage.

Thank you for your time

Brad

Wow ... i mean wow that was quite a piece of work there. what a pair. i'll tell you what you brandish that brass pair and buy it and show up every one here. i will pay you $100 and i bet that everyone else here will be in awe of your MANLINESS and want to give you $100 each just because so that will offset your cost. now all you have to do is be the alpha male with the elloquence of a newt.

Hey guys, This is the foul mouthed vagina guy.

1. I will provide pictures (working on a 2004 RX8 with a cold air intake)

2. I can break them down in flash (with audio), to show different pics, narrated, showing the process later.

3. I am very much a 'see it to believe it' kind of guy. That is why I state how pissed I will be if it works.

4. My mouth may sometimes turn people off in the inappropriate way I state things, but anyone who believes that all the people that they have ever seen in their life that have 'authority' got it by being intelligent leaders are living in a world of imaginary bullshit. I see more experts on Fox news in a night than I can blow a load at. I saw some guy do it with a sock and a lint trap, and I said, "Fuck this guy, I can do this". Then I did. Same thing here. I think I spent about 3 hours on a mechanics conference call, and I spent time talking to the guys at 3 different companies before I made my decision to buy, and then acted on it.

I just hear and see so many chickenhawks and intra-vaginal doom forebearers that I automatically go over the deep end. I should not. Condemnation before observation is not the way to live a life...unless you do not have the mental facilities to process the observation...then it is simply a manner of living life predicated on your handicap of an inability to accept things (good or bad) and move forward. I have taken a lot of risks in my life, none of which have had even the slightest bit of benefit...so why not a risk on something that might be beneficial?

For christ's sake, in the early 1900's the patent office wanted to close, becuase everything that could have been invented already was. If that is not representative of my statements related to this (and any other flight of the imagination turned reality), then I don't know what is enough motivation to re-asses the situation. And on battery (IE: lithium ion) there was a recent breakthrough (using nano-wires) to allow 10 times the battery capacity. So this is a great time to be a creative douchebag. Even if you have to endure criticism by naysayers. Naysayers accept what they are fed (all the containers that society can provide them)..and enjoy being boxed in.

Let me know the amount of verbal filth you can take before we start talking.

I am in Ohio, and will have local mechanics that can do this within a month or two (if it works), but I can't really state the case outside Ohio.

I promise I will show it working, or complain violently if it doesn't.
My pride won't be hurt by doing something stupid and admitting it.

I am a little confused (why is there no confused emoticon? will have to do). Are you for pseudoscience devices that have been thoroughly scientifically dis-proven (such as the different elements used in the HAFC) that keep resurfacing and being used by scammers (or people with a poor understanding of science who are trying to save the world, make a buck, etc) or are you for trying a "too good to be true" device out in the hopes that the claims made on the site are at least in part true, thereby potentially leading to a technological or scientific development that could benefit mankind (such as a new field of development incorporating, say magnets and exotic particle interactions at the quantum level), or at least save you some money in the long run.

I don't know if this is very clear (not confused this time, more a ponder). My view (as I and others have stated) is that the technology behind this is nothing more than a re-accruing scam based on a flawed understanding of scientific principles. Further reinvestigation into this specific HAFC and other technology on the site (yes I did look and assess it before I started my posts, part of my job is scientific R&D in power storage and generation after all) reaffirmed my views that is is still the same old scam (but with a new hat).

As I and others have stated, any gains are purely due to any fuel additives added and whatever the computer module is doing to the cars oxygen sensor (or whatever it is controlling). Hydrogen generator - nothing (in fact it will most likely reduce the mileage due to the load it places on the alternator = extra loading on the engine), magnets in the fuel line - no.

Please don't jump down my neck as I actually have the engineering and scientific background and experience to back up my statements, and am one of the few here who will actually bother to re look at free-energy/perpetual motion/gas millage increasing/pseudoscience devices that come to my attention. After all you never know when something may actually come from it.

I have taken a lot of risks in my life, none of which have had even the slightest bit of benefit...so why not a risk on something that might be beneficial?

After investigating the technology and performed a quick risk analysis study it was found that I wold be better off investing my money in something more productive.

Hello, Brante Here...I was just catching up on some of the posts, I had to laugh Mr. Foul Mouth "with" your posts, I can certainly relate to what your feeling and expressing in the way of intention...if not being agreeable to your choice of language.

Now to David and Jack, I still feel strongly in the primary validity of the HAFC, I can't prove it at this moment in terms you could both understand and agree with I don't think, I can only ask that you continue to have somewhat open minds. I have invested more then $2,500.00 on HAFC, and other products from Dutchman Ent. and I have many steps to make before I am perfectly informed on the methods of technology.

I am currently in the process of watching and reviewing 15 hours of mechanics installation and tuning seminar for the HAFC, I can tell you the amount of knowledge and comprehensive information I'm trying to cram into my brain is quite high for someone without training in chemistry, electronics, mechanics and other professions. There is decades of experience being demonstrated with these DVDs and my confidence in the factual and reasonable nature of the MPG improvements has been increased exponentially. I have been reluctant to film and broadcast our progress until we have established certain aspects of the kit and have grasped enough of the mechanics that we do not cast the HAFC in a poor light simply because of our inexperience. I have seen many sound appearing technologies, pioneered in backyard workshops (yes this can happen...try not to be pessimists on this idea). But the people were not well versed, nor organized or even decently dressed....so most of the time, I unfortunately have to dismiss many for the apparent unprofessionalism...which makes the inventor appear half crazy and half science-fiction.

This is NOT the case with the background behind the HAFC, anyone can order these DVDs for $30, and see for themselves the ENTIRE background and foundation for the HAFC, I invite at least some of you to take this opportunity to cheaply see for yourself the system explained by a highly trained mechanic. Not that these are large business or Hollywood professional DVDs, however they do contain in a primarily adequate fashion the technology, how it functions and the means to install it.

I am currently in the process of watching and reviewing 15 hours of mechanics installation and tuning seminar for the HAFC.

Some thing's wrong here. Why is there so much information provided for understanding and installing the startup kit? Does it include the complete history of water electrolysis and magnetic devices as well. 15 hours!! With that much information overload anyone could be brainwashed into believing anything.

Back on topic, what exactly is being shown in these training videos (perhaps additional ways of tuning or running your vehicle that have been proven to scientifically work). One or two dozen small changes which slightly increase fuel economy can make one nice big increase in the end, just remember when performing your testing that this should ALSO be taken into account and not be confused to the actual performance of the HAFC unit.

I propose that when you do your tests you perform a standard test using an unmodified vehicle with no additional tips or tricks you have learned used (this will give you a nice baseline reference), a second test using just an unmodified vehicle but also using all the additional tips or tricks you have learned from the DVD or other sources (this will allow you to isolate the performance of the HAFC by itself), and of course the final test with the HAFC added and using the millage-increasing tips and tricks you have learned.

Remember - It is very, very important when conducting tests that you isolate and take into account all the variables that could effect your results! Not doing this is one of the most common testing errors and will seriously mess up any tests you perform.

The other important thing to remember is that the conditions of all three lots of tests (as mentioned above) need to be as similar as possible as natural variations in conditions can cause MAJOR differences that could very well exceed any gains or losses that you are trying to measure (another bane of testing outside a controlled lab environment).

It also helps if the period of the test is as long as possible for accuracy. For example - "A poll of 10 Americans indicated that 70% of Americans believe in Aliens, which indicates that the majority of Americans believe in Aliens" is almost as useless as not performing the poll in the first place and just making up a number. Don't laugh, I see this sort of crappy logic far too often.

This is NOT the case with the background behind the HAFC, anyone can order these DVDs for $30, and see for themselves the ENTIRE background and foundation for the HAFC

True, but I can also point you to free-energy generator sites that sell boxed sets of 10's of hours of information and background material (all professional looking). It's not about the quantity its about the quality (and the less said about the lizard people the better).

Could you give us a quick rundown on what topics are covered on this 16 hours of technical information and training (and perhaps a little more in depth info on the topics and how much time is spent on them)?

I should clarify, the exact nature of the DVDs is to train mechanics, in order to train new mechanics in their area...this does mean of course that all aspects of theory, installing and tuning etc. are covered. I think that makes pretty good sense...pardon my previous lack of clarity. I am not sure that the "brainwashing" comment was earned :-P

I would say there are a number of fairly simple and well known means of increasing the MPG that are discussed, although good mechanical knowledge certainly helps. However the fine-tuning tips and tricks, are supposed to be "after" the 50% or more gain, to maximize the MPG and is primarily done through electrical means. I would say there are not more then 8-10 possible changes that are discussed with only about 4 being commonly necessary...with most mid-90's vehicles. Since the HAFC is guaranteed to get 50% better millage with the initial install, I don't think the additional helpful alterations invalidate the kit itself. The DVDs also go on to explain the PICC and its purpose in being brought out to the public, considering the advances in non-combustion engines.

We are going to try to do just as you say with two different vehicles and to test independently, to be as conclusive as possible. Unfortunately our MPG tests could always be disputed as pure lies..on this or any other forum, so beyond proving it to ourselves theres not much I can do.

I completely agree with the quality being key, I suggest you call in and listen to Mike today, the man behind the classes and who most mechanical questions are directed to and see if hes got any sense with your own judgement, I myself will be on the mechanics conference call today at 12pm Mountain time...I think. British Columbia time, if the mountain doesn't twig.

The DVDs are broken down into basically several sections (3-6) on each of the 5 DVDs, I can't give you absolute detail, but each aspect of the HAFC is covered, as well as alot of basic and non-basic mechanical and electrical theory, which is well established in engine enhancing circles I believe (racing engines etc.) to my knowledge. They (the DVDs) are not simply telling how it is and we expect you to believe, its going over in a roomful of mechanics on a large whiteboard - the exact way engine computers work and how they are going to deal with the enhancements of the HAFC and how they need to be worked around etc etc.

Now for my random comment for our local spy network, yes this and more is also available, from the people that brought you the latest on little green men! LOL. I hope that brings a laugh and doesn't get a wince...I freely admit my sense of humor is rather off the wall, except when it comes to serious things, such as the HAFC. Lets keep up the dialogue!

Darn right I'll demand my money back! I completely agree with making a fuss as you say...I am not some chicken swadle, there will certainly need to be results or I won't stand for it...and I am certainly going to influence every person I know (I am connected to several thousand) on the results I receive...good or bad.

Btw, have you taken any of my suggestions? For starters to read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"? I am certainly taking your advice and suggestions seriously...I can only ask the same in return, will you be listening to the conference call today?

No I have not read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". I had a look at what it was actually about and what was in it and did not see that it would benefit me in any positive way. I try and stay out of politics (try being the active word), and I already know the world is pretty screwed up in some areas (by personal experience), so I just try and stick with making a difference where I can (I am synical enough as it is) and not getting too worried about what I cannot change.

As for the conference call, no I will stay out of this and let you all work thru things (I am at work myself after all). Just remember what I have said, and if you have any questions remember we are all still here to offer our advise based on what we have learnt and experienced in our various fields.

More of us USA types with Vietnam experience had gotten into politics, we would not be in Iraq now -

Politics is the management of society - and NOW money is buying their way through government in the US -

Yes They are interfering -

see my other post about information and plans for Hydroxy systems for $50 and time to build that WILL boost mileage 20 to 70 %

Working on the rotary hybrid - 100 mpg on petrol - 400 with hydroxy boost

Soon to be running on WATER alone -

Start with http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk

rcb

If thats what your looking for then try this out. Reading some of this and other stuff is what reminded me I don't have all of the answers. That is why, I'm sure it will take me a while but am going to build my own to actually test it. It doesn't change my views on Dennis Lee and his group of brainwashed followers. But thats a whole different story.

Dan

Brante have you concluded your test yet? If not do you have any data to support or deny the manufacturer's claims at this time?

Hello Brandt, I just signed into this site a couple days ago. I understand you have a fuel cell in your possession? I ordered one 5 weeks ago and I';m still waiting. Could you share your results with me? Thanks Bill

Hi Jack,

IF you are interested in the history and science here are two links

that can answer most questions.

Link to overview of hydroxy boosting basics and much other energy related things.

<http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/>


link below explains with examples pantone system G in France


http://wohttp://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fquanthomme.free.fr%2fpantone%2frealisations%2fFrancePMC3.htmrld.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fquanthomme.free.fr%2fpantone%2frealisations%2fFrancePMC3.htm

You have enough background to go deeper than most - There are several sets of information on the Quanthomme site - particularly the Massy Ferguson that went from 21 L/hr to 5 liters/hour !!

enjoy

rcb

I recommend you READ the second link - Meanwhile I will continue developing my 100 mpg engine ( standard fuel system ) -- With the fuel system that get it to 400 mpg ( both parts are running - separately for now)

rcb

Yes I read it. If you are basing your research and development on this then you are wasting both your time and mine.

GENERAL POST TO EVERYONE HERE - PLEASE READ

Jack of All Trades is a scammer out to steal your money:

Jack, You are not offering any real advise to anyone that is worth a penny. You are just trying to peddle this pseudoscience hillbilly shit, that has not an iota of truth.

You just want to live by sucking upto Dennis Lee and steal the hard earned money of good souls, who want to save a few pennies or save the panet or both.

Dont waste your time here, Jack. Just go back to your cave or jail cell, where you belong.

Hey Dan ;

RE: #1 - Trying plain acetone here ; on tank #2 now . I researched this alot online testing shows this can yield 10-20% on average. Reference this site:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency

This is the most extensive and UNBIASED site I have found.
Includes details of results using acetone on many different cars.

Side note - I am testing on 1994 LHS , 3.5 L - 150,000 miles. Immediate improvement in accel, idle and starting. Testing MPG right now. First tank was about 5% more MPG - but I was enjoying the extra power... got to trim it back abit! LOL

RE: #2 - Correct ; you can fool the O2 sensors to read "rich" ; and the computer will lean the mixture.

RE: #3 - Heater - so far - from a lot of research this is sound. And there is away to get around the fuel return too. Working on this next on the test car. Improvements approximately 10-20% from research so far.

Side note - amount will vary depending on gas used - service station dependant -because the vapour points on the compounds in the gas varies. Some will come close to vapour point at 200F [appox coolant temp] others are higher at 350F...

There are three sources of heat on your car:

1 - Coolant - approximate 200F.
2 - Transmission - approximate 250-300F.
3 - Exhaust - 200-500F .- you need a regulator...

Side note 2 - Just ordered new spark plugs- called "Halos". Going to be testing on two cars - test car + Jeep. This site also includes real data on many different cars and fleets - increase MPG from 10% to 30%.

GO here - http://www.haloplug.com - click on "test and trial results".

I will be installing and testing as soon as they arrive ; will report findings.
Both test cars have real time MPG + average MPG built in and MPG is known for both.

Thanks

D

Nice work, Keep us updated on any mpg change or lack there of on this thread http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/17581#newcomments if you like.

Thanks for the input...

Dan

How about a place to read about MOST of the hydroxy systems FREE including both of these -

The HAFC is taken from public domain ( expired patents )

<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/files/>

has links to most WORKING hydroxy systems with free plans and patents

Smack can be purchased for $200 / 1.7 LPM 10 to 50 % increase in mileage.

Spiral is now running a 250 cc motorcylce entirely on water.

Stan Meyers work has been replicated and is running engines NOW.

HAFC will work - but costs 3 times the smack for purchase and 6 times if you build your own. ---

The best total overview I know is at

<http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk>

Good folks here - some of you start building - we can run our cars and HOUSES

on water - ( no more electric bills - on sale early 2009 )

rcb

Hi Mike/Guest;

With respect; I am ALL FOR giving Opec the finger ... any way possible - as long as it works.

There are legit methods / tech to use to increase MPG. Saddly these are all over the net and scattered - hidden within / beside other methods that just do not work period.

However; if they are not legit and people end up getting burned - we ALL lose - and when a legit method comes along and does work... people will not try it and Opec wins again.

I look forward to reading your results ; especially considering you are using a rotary engine for this test ; which by design have always had issues with MPG and emissions due to the difference in design VS standard engines.

No offense intended - rotary engines offer fantasic power for the size ; and reliablity.

SIDENOTE;

There is a legit company here in Ontario Canada that sells a "Water/Gas" addon for usage with 18 wheelers ; cost is $5000-$10000 and MPG about 10%+. It works better with their systems because of voltage difference - 12 VS 24 V systems. I read this a few years ago;

D

you still here in ohio? i am in cincy and would like to talk to you about what you have found with your tests... i can take your fould language. no issues...

Does anyone know the website, or anything, for the Washington Energy show mentioned above? I saw someone mention it being out of the country. Can anyone give me more info about it?

Thanks

went to the website they noted in the FAQs; at their website ; no info there.D

http://www.americanrenewables.org/faqs.cfm

No that was me saying I wouldn't be IN the country this year so I would have to settle for a virtual version or rundown of the show.

http://www.americanrenewables.org/faqs.cfm

Hmm, did not see HAFC or PICC on the list.

Unfortunately there is not much you can do about it. There will always be some people that will want to believe you can get something for nothing, and others that will prey on those people. Basic human nature. The best we can hope for is that there will always be people there to teach and advise people on reality, and those that make mistakes learn from them. Unfortunately you cannot save everyone.

Sadly we humans do not seem to learn from our mistakes easily. After all the time I have spent trying to educate and even assist helping inventors of new free energy devices (etc) prove for themselves what they are seeing is not free energy (or proper science), I really am unsure if I have helped any of them at all. Some people chose to believe what they want to believe and there is nothing that will shake their faith (even if they don't have the first clue about science, physics, engineering, etc). A bit like religion but ludicrously easy to either prove or disprove (unlike religion).

JeffOtto.com LTD's challenge to any of these so-called critics:

Put your money where your mouth is! $5,000 cash to be exact and we will do the same.

• They provide a suitable shop at their chosen continental US location and we will provide a vehicle to be modified (a scientific before & after mileage check will be performed both before and after).
• We will announce the date and location to give anyone that would like to witness the event adequate prior notice and it will be video taped.
• They are also welcome to announce the event and have any of their experts present to test/examine the pre & post HAFC equipped vehicle.
• If their experts can find anything bogus like a false tank, or whatever, they can announce that to the world as they see fit.
• When they do discover the technology works exactly as we claim, they can then repent by issuing a public apology and remove any negative comments they have posted anywhere.
• Obviously the winner will keep the losers $5,000!

Foul Mouth Vagina guy Update
Systems purchased:
1. Hafc - Ordered (should be here in days)
2. 2nd option - Ordered (here in 2 days)
Hafc -
Cust service - Seems somewhat disorganized. Considering the fact that you can not get a shipping number (IE: UPS / Fed Ex). Statement was that they were drop shipped from the mfg.
Cost - 1000 or (775 as an affilate) / install - looking like 400 - 500
Resell - Yes. Without upfront investment
Parts - I understand the concept of GEET catalytic converters, and it seems like the HAFC is more complex because it is a 1 of 2 deal. Which is cool, but what if 1 is good enough (IE: 50% or more)
Overall - He has watched all the conspiracy movies that I have, so I like him. I don't know about the whole deal. It is definitely complicated enough to require a mechanic with some double standard skills in electricity (scan guages / etc. for tuning), but for the feasibility of 4x I would assume that there would need to be all kinds of fun things required to accomplish this.
2nd option - no name given
Simple - water container / fuel cell right before the vaccum intake.
Size - About the size of 20 credit cards stacked on each other with a hose.
Technology - Looks (from my mutton brain experience) like a consolidation of those technologies listed above in a tiny box.
Shipping - 3 days
Cost - 4 models (norm / plus / thrust) - the top one is a psycotic boost for the cars.
Service - Cool. The guy talked to my mechanic for 20 minutes becuase of my weird ass car (rx8 rotary) as the vaccum intake is a mutant...but workable.
Overall - I think this puppy is simpler, but it ends at 50% or 100%. And I see more emphasis on horsepower. This one definitely shows up more like a cheap constant turbo with a little milage when searching.
A fun movie to watch and contaminate your brain with:
Bingo Fuel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be-vZ45hN9U&feature=related
Anyways...I don't want to give it all away. Drop one in your mom, and let me know what you think.

Hey foul mouthed vagina guy, I like your bravado but have you installed this thing yet?

Hey vagina guy, several weeks have passed - any update on the HAFC?

these device work, installed many,they work like Blue Fuel Technology www.bluefueltechnology.com

From your site.....

EPS Nano Fuel Technology uses nano technology to change the physical properties of the fuel. When processed through the EPS Nano Fuel Device, normal fuel molecules, which are 300 nanometer or larger are reduced to nano molecules of 3 nanometers or less.

Your site (and downloadable section) does not say anywhere HOW you are using "nanotechnology" to make the fuel molecules smaller (Nice picture of George bush giving an award to the president of Yuantong Co. Ltd. (manufacturer of EPS Nano Fuel Devices) thou).

Based on your statement "these device work, installed many,they work like Blue Fuel Technology" am I to assume they are also a permanent magnet device with the fuel supply flowing thru the middle? I didn't think so. Could you clarify please or provide a link that explains how it actually works (a patent number would do)?

Also, are there any links to actual research proving the claims of increased fuel savings and reduced pollution, as all I could find on your site were tests that just proved that the fuel molecule size dropped from 300nm going into the device and 3nm coming out. I could find nowhere any verification of any actual fuel efficiency claims (which I thought was very, very odd)?

One last question, how much does a standard module for a diesel car cost? Just an approximate cost in US dollars will be fine.

Thank you.

Are you saying that you have installed many blue fuel technology devices and they work, or are you saying you have installed many HAFC's and they(HAFC's)work like blue fuel technology. Or maybe you are talking about some other device. Please clarify.

If the blue fuel technology device works and I can find enough to make me believe it could work and its not to pricy, then I will think about testing it myself. Its only 10% mpg better. I get that every 3000 miles with an oil change.

Now, if you are saying that the HAFC's work like the blue fuel technology devices then that would lead me to believe even more that the tunning computer, covalizer, and especially the fuel heater among any other special tweeks or gadgets the special certified mechanic does are the source of mileage gain and the Hydrogen generator is nothing more than a 1200 dollar electrified gold fish bowl.

Question?

It says this on http://www.bluefueltechnology.com/technology.htm

• Fuel savings of 10% or greater.
• Emission reductions of CO, HC, NOx of
25% or greater.
• Emission reductions of CO2 of 10% or greater.
• Reduction of particulate matter of 50% or greater.
• Power enhancement of 10% or greater.
• Reduction of engine noise.
• Removal of carbon deposits in the engine.
• Extension of the engine's service life.
Then on the first distributor link I found on your site http://mpglogic.com/home.html

Then I clicked on

MPG ROI CALCULATOR.

Found this

Did they get your product and some how make it better or do you just let your business associates/distributors make outlandish claims like 50% to 90% mpg increase? I know there is no promise in there but it sure makes you look like s#!t.

Please prove me wrong.

The thing I find most interesting is how almost all those that support these technologies are always guests.

How come none of them actually sign up to the forum?

Call me a cynic (I'm sure many guests will), but someone with a track record in the forum (i.e. other posts on other or even related topics) has more credibility than fifty anonymous guests, especially when those guests are vociferous in their condemnation of any "non- believers", no mater how valid their questions

But many guests are able to put forward there views in just a single sentence, with none of those annoying links to research or information that justify their outlandish claims (usually involving free energy, big oil, conspiracy, previous posters sexual preference, etc). Personally I find the use of txt language short hand only adds to the overall effect that truly sums up exactly what the "Guest" is trying to say.

I saw the add in Popular Science Magazine for the PICC and eventually made my way to this forum to see if the story checks out on the HAFC. I've been watching this thread for a week or so and the Engineer in me is just itching to give the HAFC a try. So, I've decided to take the plunge and purchase one. I will be installing it on an 01' Isuzu Trooper (4X4) and see if I can do better than the 14 MPG city and 18 MPG highway I'm getting now. The 2 to 4 week delivery time does seem a bit long. If it works as advertised, I will probably purchase at least one more kit. Has anyone on this thread actually installed a kit on their own vehicle?

Good on ya. If I had the money laying around to try that right off the bat I probably would to. Maybe not for that price but there are many of these things online. Please keep us updated. My friends wife should have hers in a week or so. I know the guy who says he will be doing the install and I should be there for it as long as work doesn't get in the way. I will let you guys know what I find. She claims that at this point she is getting about 12 mpg on the highway. So with the at least 50% guaranteed it should bring her V-10 Excursion up to 18 minimum.

Dan

Hey ; that is where I saw the ad too - promising 121 MPG!...

Let me know how it works out... make certain you run at least 2 tanks of fuel and reset your computer too [immediately after additions].

BTW - Testing acetone and halo plugs ; getting 10%-15% better MPG. Starting test of car #2 now ; same additions - will report on this too. Estimate 1000KM / 600 miles min for max results and fine tuning.

Range according to research:

Acetone - 5% to 20% better MPG reported , average about 10%.
Halo Plugs - 5% to 25% better MPG, average about 12%.

See :

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/17581#newcomments

for more tech info.

D

Well keep us informed. All the information on the ways to conduct a test to see just how well the vehicle performs before and after the addition of the HAFC are listed in this thread. Given the massive change you expect, it shouldn't be too hard to see if the device is working as it was advertised.

I believe the name is BRANTE. He's been installing one and I have been checking this forum daily for the past month to look for his replies. FYI remember not to let the gas savings from the other kit items get confused with the fuel cell. The reason they guarantee the 50% increase is becase the covalizer and the heat exchanger gives that. The email reply I got from there "wannabe appraisal" said the average user would get at least 100% increase.

Oh for anyone who didn't know, if you send out for an apraisal for the HAFC kit you get sails slogan reply. It'll be disappointing if it does work because all the poor marketing and bad press it's collected as a "scam" may never let it get off the ground.

Why do you even BOTHER to talk to these SCAMMERS? Close this thread, it's a SCAM. Guaranteed.

......Because if you look thru the thread you will see that as people have actually brought the devices and are in the process of testing them in various vehicles It has become a practical exercise in performing proper practical real-world tests along with collecting (fairly) accurate real-world results on what these devices ACTUALLY do and the magnitude of any MPG gains (if any).

If nothing else, it will at least prove or disprove such devices to others who will not listen to science but rather to people who actually tried it in their vehicle, and give others an in site on how to perform their own practical tests to get meaningful scientific results (rather than thinking, "after conducting tests with these two fridge magnets for 5 minutes I am convinced I can make a magnet-powered motor").

"Those that ignore the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them in the future".

Good answer Jack

I asked the manufacturers their phone number or address and there was no response. They wrote me in an email that they will accept only a check. All I have from them is a poorly written email that sounds like a scam, no phone, no pictures, no presentation, no real names, nothing. Any comments on that?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it IS a duck.

Tell them you will give them a personal check when you pick it up and see what their response is.

If they won't trust you that far, then why in the hell would you trust them with your hard earned cash?

Incidentally, if they will only accept a check (I'm guessing certified or the like) and they won't give you an address, where do they expect you to send the check?

If the answer is a post office box, DON'T!

Yes, it's a post office box and no phone.

================ S.C.A.M. =====================================

Godtekun, Ltd. RR 1, Box 187-A St. Francisville, IL 62460

And this is their email received. After I asked their phone number or to PICK the stuff up LIVE at their location, there was NO response.

Dear Charles, Thank you for your recent request for an obligation free quote on our engine modification process for your car(s.) It is a two-step process and we must quote each step in the process separately, since the first step is already on the market and the second step (the PICC) is not yet market ready, I will give you a quote now on the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell. This first step (the HAFC kit) is GUARANTEED to increase your gas mileage by 50% or better, but we expect it to possibly more than double it. In fact, scientific testing from our test pilot program of the first 80 HAFC installations in our class projects averaged an increased mileage of 95%. The PICC is an upgrade, which adds more technology to the HAFC. The HAFC will have to be added later when the PICC is ready anyway, so you might as well get it now and start saving while waiting for the PICC. You may be so happy with the HAFC you do not need the PICC upgrade. If you are like some of our customers and get over 100 miles per gallon with your four cylinder car, why spend more money upgrading to the PICC? At the time we are ready to upgrade you to the PICC, we will send you a quote for the PICC kit with a scientific appraisal of the estimated mileage increase as well as the additional costs involved in upgrading. Whatever it is, you can decide if it is worth it. Our guesstimate is that we will be able to increase even SUVs to over 100 miles per gallon for another $2,000 to $3,000 cost (perhaps $4,000 in total.) The HAFC Kit price, for your car is $1,040 plus $25.00 S/H for a total of $1065.00 and is absolutely guaranteed to increase your mileage by at least 50% or you will be cheerfully refunded the cost of the kit upon the return of the kit as per our savings guarantee policy. The question is, would you pay a thousand dollars to be guaranteed an increase of 50% or better in miles traveled per gallon of gasoline? There is a high likelihood you will even double your gas mileage, but that is not guaranteed to happen, so let's just take the first statement. If you drive 15,000 miles per year, and are getting 20 miles per gallon average, then you are using 750 gallons of gasoline a year. If you could be guaranteed to change that to 30 miles per gallon then you would use 500 gallons instead. That is a savings of 250 gallons of gasoline. It is like getting 250 gallons of free gas each year! At $3 per gallon, that is $750 saved in one year. But gas is expected to go to $4 per gallon and that is a savings of $1,000 in one year. If you drive 20,000 miles per year, then it is more like 334 gallons of free gas. Of course the kit has often doubled the original mileage of the vehicle it is installed on, and, in that event, a one year payback is assured. Our Fuel Cell kit is expected to last the life of the vehicle and it will greatly increase the life of your engine. The HAFC (Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell) comes in the form of a kit that the car owners could even install themselves if they are handy. We also have trained and certified mechanics, and we will refer one closest to those who have purchased a kit, or we will train one in your town for you.. It usually takes four hours of a mechanic's time to install the kit. For details about how the additional economy is achieved through this technology, I will refer you back to the web site you used when you filled out your initial request for a quote. So, the cost for your HAFC kit is $1,040 plus $25 S/H for a total of $1065.00 and we recommend purchasing it as soon as possible. Our national dealer network has collectively funded a multi-million dollar national ad campaign that is in progress right now and we are getting busy. There are over 100 million vehicles on the road in this country and every one of them need this technology. Soon, it could get harder for our manufacturers to supply the demand. With our savings guarantee, there is nothing to lose… except your gas bills. The sooner you get your kit, the sooner you can install it and start saving. Right now, we can supply kits within no more than a couple of weeks wait. We are a dealer for this project so you buy the HAFC kit directly through our dealership. Please make all checks and money orders to: Godtekun, Ltd. RR 1, Box 187-A St. Francisville, IL 62460 . __ We regret that the volume of orders we are experiencing takes us out of the range of credit card carriers. We are too successful too fast to be able to process credit card purchases at this time. If we were doing less volume we could. That is good for us in one way and bad in another. We hope the inconvenience of having to pay by check or money orderl is not too burdensome to our customers. If you have any questions, I would like to refer you to the HAFC website, http://www.hafctechnology.com/ especially to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) section of the site. Thanks, Frank Kitchell

p.s. Congratulations on being in the vanguard of this exciting program. The material provided should suffice for most any question. Please review the Frequently Asked Questions section of the site. Frank

================ S.C.A.M. =====================================

More info:

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7501919888/m/2301966459

Perhaps only the manufacturer will take a check. I used these guys www.EnergyEmpire.com and they took my credit card via Paypal. The address is in Quebec, but his webserver is in Florida. You can lookup (Whois) any domain on the Network Solutions website and get an address, a phone number and a contact. Yep, could be a scam, but my sister and her husband are FBI agents and I have their work numbers, if that'll make you feel better ;-)

Dutchman markets the HAFC through Dealers and their Affiliates. It is there responsibility to communicate with you. The question is who is your sponsor. If you don't have one I would be happy to help you out... phone or e-mail would be fine.
You can learn more at http://picc.shorturl.com

Before posting please read the previous threads of this post. You will find that people have, and are in the process of installing and trialling this device.

Also refer to myself and others who have actually provided data based either on actual experience with the technologies behind the devices or hand's-on experience with the devices themselves (no it doesn't work as marketed).

Thank you.

Seems that all the big talkers from the "lets install the thing and see what happens" camp have all disappeared. Is this part of the conspiracy:)

How can it not be scam.....

Been following this thread from the start. No results.

scam.

Hello Bitches!

It's the foul mouth vagina guy again.

In regards to why people that talk about this wouldn't register for forums:
(me personally anyways)

I got kicked off of my rx8 forum because I registered (search hammercrotch). Some guy asked 'why don't you register?'. That is becuase cunts could then kick you off as they know who you are. I like being able to come and go as I please. That's why I am not married...and that is why I don't register.

I did the following:

1. Bought the aquatune system, and installed it (3 weeks and 3 tanks ago)

Results so far:

A. increased horsepower - I can't say exactly - ask your mom I think she has a dyno at her house.

B. increased mpg - I have consistently gotten 30+ a tank.

My norm is 190 on a 13 gallon tank (I drive a 2004 rx8)
I have been getting 220/230 a tank since the install.

I have changed my gas to 87 vs. 93 and there are no pings or any of that other crazy shit. Still got the same good old kick in the vag as 93.

To do:

I need to change my spark plugs to the good old copper spark plugs becuase of something about platinum plugs (which I have) being the nectar of satan.

I would also like to note that milk is the nectar of satan, along with super mario. I was told this by a kid in 6th grade who had one white eyebrow, who told me that god gave it to him, and his mother had given him this valuable information...I would simply like to share it with you guys.

I think once I do that I will be able to define FINAL results on this one.

2. HAFC - I would like to say that I am horribly pissed off becuase I waited a month to get it, and...no kit. The second I told him that I was sick of waiting he refunded me. The last time that someone fradulently used my credit card to pay bills in Chile and sign me up for porn sites...they did not refund me...so I can't be that pissed. I would tell you the story behind why he couldn't get it to me on time...but I am sure as shit you wouldn't believe me if I told you...so let's just call it supply chain incapacitation for lack of the truth.

I found another distributor to buy this HAFC from and I will try this again soon (2 weeks tops), and install that bitch too.

I got their mechanics training video and I think that it is very worthwhile to look at to conceptually understand the process. Besides, it's 40 bucks, and I think everyone has gotten an asian massage that costs that much before this that provides no real value...so why not 40 on trying to decipher the bullshit from the sour grapes theory of life.

Get raped. Thanks for actually showing positive responses.

dude, you are really funny.

you are killing me. keep it up and keep us informed.... so far the only douche that has given feedback....

Hey vagina guy, love the response - at least you had the balls to reply. Keep us posted on the results, the $ is burning hole in my pocket.

There were a few other posters who said they were purchasing the device for evaluation purposes but seem to have disappeared - could it be a conspiracy? LOL

got kicked off of my rx8 forum because I registered (search hammercrotch)

What a surprise. Tell you what, if you clean up the language and register I promise not to have you kicked off. You could call yourself FMVG (just use a little control when you chose your Avatar).

Anyway, I am STILL getting mixed messages from you. Are you for the technology or against it? You mix sarcasm, crazy talk and course language throughout all your posts (some which seem to be strongly against and some strongly for the technology). I cannot make heads or tails of if you are being serious or are making a big joke about the whole thread in general.

Should I take you seriously or just lump you into the cross section of the 'Guest' crowd that are just talking out their arse and have no idea of the science behind the technology and no interest to learn other than to post random comments with no facts.

Could you please clarify this for me. Thank you.

Jack - Trying to make the world a better place one thread at a time

You know, I was getting bored(overwhelmed) with the tech. talk here, just wanted to know from a real live person if it worked. Thanks, foul mouth vajj guy. I'm a real live honest born Ohio vajj and I think you may have a few other reasons why your not married, but afraid to take chances, wouldn't be one of them.

So they are saying they cannot accept credit cards because "THEy ARE TOO BUSY?" dude, I accept crdit cards. in fact ANYONE can accept credit cards if they get a fliping account.. SCAM

i was wanting to to see what would happen if i asked for a quote, and after getting it and replyed that i thought it was a scam this is what i was sent

Well, we have a Multi Million dollar ad program with full page ads in Newsweek, US News and World Report , Popular Science, Popular Mechanics and Motar Head Ect. And did you go on http://www.hafctechnology.com/FAQs.htm ? On the 4th thru 6th in Washinton DC @ WIREC 2008 Show we have booth 411 SHowcasing the HAFC & PICC . Scam ? I think not ! You don't know what you don't know and you don't know you don't know it ! Dennis N. Drake President of Better and BEtter Technologies Inc. 702-944-0376 www.Rockin69.com

and later received a call from the guy and i could tell right away it is indeed a scam by the way i was getting treated over the phone, he was very rude and when i asked, "tell me where an installer is in my area and i would be glad to talk to him and maybe see a car with this cheap made system on it and then maybe i would buy one if it really did work" this is what he said, " we dont give out that information until after you purchase this system"

if i had to guess i would say the foul mouth guest and the rude guy i talked to on the phone is the same person

something else i think is weird is, if this guy is selling and is as busy and has a mult million dollor operation he said he had over the phone than how in the world does he have time to respond to me by phone in less than 3 min. after i reply to his email on a Sunday

I received the same letter, same price for the HAFC for my 2000 Yuko. About three days later I received a call from 'Joe' in Illinois who was a lead mechanic for installations of this thing. We talked for a few minutes and he told me he would get back to me with the names of qualified mechanics in my area/region. I told him I would order the device once I was sure there was someone in my area with qualifications to tune the HAFC. Joe told me that was fair and told me he would get back to me - it has been about 3 days do we will have to see what happens.

However I would still like to hear from anyone who has successfully installed this thing and hear the results.

i am still waiting on emails regarding installers locally so i can see the system. so far no replies... too bad. seems like a scam. if not, a really poorly run organization. if this is legit. do it. it will be on fox and cnn in like a day if it is real. you are doing a disservice to all those out here who are trying to fix this problem. you are doing more harm than good.

Vagina guy back reporting

Sweet Vagina!

I was told that you can find my posts by searching "hafc, vagina" in google. It would make my mom proud. She is a cougar.

To answer questions posed to me:

Am I for it: Yes

Do I like the organization of these businesses at times: No. I build web sites and content management systems for a living...and as strange as these systems are ahead of their times...the organizational skills are lacking at times.

I will only pitch companies that I work with, that have given me my shit in a reasonable time frame (IE: 2 weeks or less)

Considering the fact that I am going to be putting my cash (which I earned fair and square prostituting myself) I would like it if people that read this and get to see it they go to my site to get it...when I do get it.

I have a waitress and a cvs manager close by that I have been updating on my progress...as this is one of those things you have to see for yourself to do it seems.

Regardless, someone called me that had the system put in their car, and was amused by me ripping naysayers a secondary asshole, and I am interested in seeing his final progress. The reason that people might not be as forward as me (while spouting profanities) about showing your their progress...might be the fact that 'sour grapes' and scam seems to turn people off of wanting to help others...and makes them more prone to find other communication avenues to prove their point more concretely. I can understand this, but I am the kind of guy that gets drunk at a party, puts a watchface on my junk, wraps it around my wrist, and asks girls what time it is. I haven't done that for a while...It seems girls don't like that. It's always cock a clock round here.

Did I actually setup a system: yes - aquatune - working / Hafc - no - looking for another supplier. Checking www.jeffotto.com, but need to pay home bills, and stuff...(unless someone wants to buy it for me). Lets say 2 weeks till I purchase that one and another week & 500 for installation.

Does it work: Yes

If anyone that lives in Ohio wants to see it you can, so I can scam all the money out of your wallet. I've come for your kids Chuck!

Also, if you want to talk about the magnetism of molecules or alchemy just call me. Let's turn goat piss into 24 karat gold!

Please state - profanity or none, so i know if I should hang up on you.

SCAM!

found a good site on rec from vagina mike. it is hydrogen-boost.com

it is wayyyy better than hafc and not a rip off. thinking of buying soon to test. thanks to vag mike for the conversation and links. there are more links to check out, but this one looks really good and promising. i dont think the technology is bad, just the hafc guys. way too disorganized and a scam.... pure and simple. they dont give phone numbers, they dont answer emails, i wonder why the exist if they are scamming, which they are, they are even doing a bad job at it. i mean, a phone call or better sales pitch would go far.

Has anyone been able to find any news/results from WIREC 2008. I know these guys were supposed to be in booth 411 but I cant find any info about. Supposedly, President Bush was driving there prototype and really liked it. BS in my opinion. I would think if something like that happened, it would be on the news right away. Or at least easily found online. Anyway, let us know how it went if any of you guys went.

Dan

first, the picc is bs. at the least the company is made up of morons. look at the site i gave above or check super hydro II. on the net. that is the system i am working with now. the tech. is solid. picc is not....

As for the disorganization of the HAFC company there are over 2000 independent dealers for the product. Each dealer may have countless sales associates affiliated with their dealship and runs their business as they see fit. Some dealers will use PO Boxes while others will not. Some dealers will accept credit card and other won't. With an organization this large and a product so new to the market it is no wonder that there is a messy sales model.

Kits are manufactured through Dutchman Enterprises. Kits are shipping directly from the warehouses and not from the dealers themselves. Read the Press Release and Distribution PDF found here on google.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Dutchman+Enterprises+has+developed%22

WIREC 2008 just ended. Booth 411 was where it was at.

http://www.americanrenewables.org/tradeshow_exhibition.cfm

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Dutchman Enterprises, LLC

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I just bought the March 2008 issues of Popular Mechanics (page 41) and D-Sport (page 97) magazines as well as the April 2008 (go figure on that one) issue of Import Tuner (page 90) all of which have the HAFC full page ad targeting mechanics. I also have the Jan. 14, 2008 issue of news week (page 49), the one with Obama on the cover. The full page ads that are in all these magazines are part of a nation wide ad campaign. Leads that come in as a result of the campaign are sent to the independent dealers and distributed to the sales associates.

Someone was asking about seeing some diagrams/tech details/etc on the kit.
Here you go. http://www.installersupport.info

Here is a link about the blue 2006 mazda getting 121MPG that is on the picctv/preignitioncc website.
http://www.tesla-in-oz.com/hydromaz.html

Oh, and about the Grand Master Technician question, this may be old now.
Did you ever try to google that title?
http://www.google.com/search?q="Grand+Master+Technician"&hl=en&start=10&sa=N
A couple minutes of looking and you can find this title coming out the woodwork in Canada.

CR4 Admin: removed broken link: http://www.tesla-in-oz.com/hydromaz.html

Your post supports my point. You, who are logged in as a guest, have to defend a company who at the very best, only makes the stuff and has a disjointed distribution network. I have contacted about 8 of these suppliers. Not one has called me back, not one has given a email back about local installers or locally installed cars for me to see. Is that then my job to google some more dealers and pester them? Or do I just move on to the next company. The website is poorly done and no support. On line chat? No. Phone number with someone human to answer phones? NO. If you want to defend the company, go ahead. But how about some pointers as to how to actually run a business. Have a press conference. Get on Fox news or cnn. Hell, do a radio talk show.... I mean renting a booth at a trade show is minor and easy. Anyone could do it...