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The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 12:36 AM

As if all the weird stuff about the Universe couldn't get any more weird, along comes this excerpt from an article in the Jan. issue of New Scientist...

It seemed to have been kicked into touch, but now the notion of a "ball-shaped" universe is bouncing back, thanks to a look at the radiation left over from the big bang.

The idea of a balled-up universe was first proposed in 2003 by Jean-Pierre Luminet at the Paris Observatory, France, as a way to explain some odd patterns in the cosmic microwave background - the afterglow of the big bang. The CMB contains warmer and cooler splotches, which reflect the density variations of the universe in its youth. This fits nicely with cosmological models, except that if you blur the microwave map into big enough pixels, the splotches disappear and the map looks less random than you'd expect - and nobody can explain why.

Luminet and his colleagues suggested that this might be because the universe is finite, but is wrapped around on itself. This means that if a spaceship could cross the universe and "exit" through one side, it would still be in the same region of space but would "re-enter" from the opposite side of the universe. Because of this wrap-around effect, images of everything in the universe would appear to be repeated in the CMB. The best way to explain the data was if the universe is like a dodecahedron - a ball-like shape with a surface of 12 identical pentagons.

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#1

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 1:15 AM

Hi Vermin. I've started a thread on the Dodecahedron Universe last year sometime - not too successful, if I remember correctly... I do not really buy into this interpretation.

Let's see if it brings some more 'scientific' comments this time around!

Jorrie

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#2
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 1:44 AM

I just thought it was an interesting idea. I'm still playing with the Boltzmann's brain affair!!!

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#3

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 3:57 AM

Maybe it's like a hexaflexagon once were learn to flex it we'll have faster than light travel .

( Or maybe it's like a small black fluffy bouncing ball...but a bit bigger ? )

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#4
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 4:29 AM

With three eyes and not just two.

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#5

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 10:27 AM

Everyone knows that the Universe is flat.

If you travel to the edge you will fall off.

Just ask the King of Spain you heretics!

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#6
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 2:35 PM

Here's the King's website just in case you can't afford the airfare.

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#7
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/19/2008 4:33 PM

Awesome! I joined.

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#8

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 12:18 AM

Dear Vermin, My mate and I were discussing something along these lines a few days ago. Our discussion centered around the newer theory of accelerated expansion.

What if: the universe is not accelerating in its expansion, but because it is finite and curved the light and radiation are actually coming around the curve so to speak and are actually approaching? As a curved mirror reflects light in unusual patterns and a gravity lens focuses light from distant objects to make them appear closer, curved space may also do something similar?

I can see the interaction in my head but lack the language to describe it. I may have to invent a new form of mathematics.


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#9
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 12:46 AM

Describing this stuff is always the hard part!!!

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#15
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 8:33 PM

You have that right! Especially in a dodecahedron having eleven dimensions! One wonders what the verticies are like where one "flat" plane of the dodecahedron meets another flat plane. What does this shape say about the "openness" of a finite but unbounded Universe? What happens when a masive black hole lies on or near one of the "flat" sides of the dodecahedron? Does it allow energy to pour out of, or into, our Universe? What does this say about disorder in the Universe when one comes to a "side"?? Wouldn't parts of the dodecahedron be rotating faster than the center parts on the flat sides? Ouch, my head hurts!

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#10
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 1:31 AM

Hi Dragonsfarm, you wrote:

"What if: the universe is not accelerating in its expansion, but because it is finite and curved the light and radiation are actually coming around the curve so to speak and are actually approaching?"

The expansion does not have to be accelerating to prevent light from "going all the way around"; if the cosmos is expanding as we observe today, light cannot go around it! Not unless it has this 'funny' dodecahedron topography, with light instantaneously 'jumping' from one 'edge' to another.

The circumference of the hypersphere today grows much faster than what light can manage to circumnavigate - it will take an infinite time...

Jorrie

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#11

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 4:10 AM

Hi vermin.

Why do you think it is a Pentadodecahedron, it could easily be a Rombdodecahedron? Then again it could be a twenyfour sided Trapezohedron or a Hexoctahedron, These last two are nearer to a sphere?

Spencer.

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#12
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 4:19 AM

Beats me! I just posted a fragment of a documet from New Scientist! It's up to you to figure out what you think of it.

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#13
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 5:17 AM

Hi vermin.

I was only wondering.

I think that it is a strange but valid theory, but if the universe go's round on itself, then surely that means that there maybe an infinate number of univeres?

This theory also means that the universe is "finite", if that is the fact then what lies outside our universe, another universe perhaps? This other universe, is it like ours? Is it populated? Is this where the so-called UFOs come from?

Question, questions, questions, the problem as I see it is that nobody knows the answers. After all, we can only theorise!

Spencer.

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#14

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/20/2008 3:52 PM

well maybe it is a sphere basically,where when you reach an opposite side it wraps back

like flux lines that emit from the north pole of an electromagnetic to the south pole appearing on the opposite pole,not necessarily on the exact opposite due to a complex electromagnetic topology and the so called missing or dark matter

and as for parallel universes ,these quantized electromagnetic reality spheres are each a subset of an infinity of similiar spheres,where crosstalk or flux linking allows travel also to alternate universes outside the original complex spheroid in our case earth

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#16

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/21/2008 8:18 AM

this has nothing to do with the topic, but what is "kicked into touch?"

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#17
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/21/2008 3:49 PM

Hi Eric

Hi Eric.

"Kicked into touch" is a Rugby (football) term. It means that the ball is out of play and it allows everyone to reposition them selves before the ball is returned into play. This can be useful as a defensive play or allow for your back line to catch up to help force a player with the ball tucked under his wing across the line and put it down "In Touch". It is all part of an ancient English custom of chasing a pig's bladder around the village and assaulting who ever is holding it. It was then modernised by the pupils at Rugby (an English Boarding School for young gentleman). People use to die playing this game, Now they only end up paralysed. Isn't progress wonderful?

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#18
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Re: ancient English custom

01/21/2008 3:56 PM

hmmm, rather like the ancient Scottish custom of stuffing a sheep's stomach full of stuff and eating it, eh? I imagine that a few have been paralysed by just the thought of that.

Thanks for the tip, guess I'll have to take up rugby.

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#20
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Re: ancient English custom

01/21/2008 4:45 PM

Ahhh... HAGGIS! Nothing like a mess of haggis to put the hair on yer chest, laddie! Mmmmm-good!

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#19
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/21/2008 4:43 PM

Where I went to university, the ruggers team slogan was "Give Blood - Play Rugby" and their logo was...

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#21
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/21/2008 4:48 PM

Here at RIT the slogan is "It takes leather balls to play Rugby." Although I admit never having played seriously I thought the slogan was cool. Having played enough American football in pads and helmets I can only imagine the carnage.

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#22

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/22/2008 12:16 PM

i'll check them out ,thanks.

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#23
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/23/2008 10:15 AM

You're welcome; thanks.

It took me a bit of time to find this thread again since i no longer seem to get automatically subscribed to threads that I respond to.

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#24

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/24/2008 1:15 AM

Did ya ever see that pic the men in black? Maybe our universe is like a marble in a bag full of marbles.... hahahahaaaa Imagine that, some lil' ol' alien kids playing a game of marbles with our universe in one of the marbles (actually, it was only a galaxy packed in the marble - but who is keeping track?)

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#25
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/24/2008 11:54 AM

I'd expect the marble players would be keeping track - unless they're playing for 'funsies', not 'keepsies'...

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#26
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/27/2008 9:53 PM

I like the idea that we are a bit of crud under the fingernail of some enormous creature.....just waiting for the clippers!

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#27
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/28/2008 8:55 PM

Well, yeah that sounds about right; especially, when looking at these damn candidates that are running for office they are like looking at the crud under the nail after scratching down under (sorry to all those that really from Down Under)

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#28
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/28/2008 10:50 PM

S'alright mate, we have always had trouble looking up to your chosen candidates. Who was it that said "You always get the politicians that you deserve".

Many of us Australians are disappointed that we don't get to vote for your/our president. What was it they said at the "Boston Tea Party", "No taxation without representation".

Remember that with politicians, when you have come to your senses, you should put them back where you found them, flush thouroughly and be sure to wash your hands.

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#29
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/28/2008 11:28 PM

Bwa hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa arggghhhhh gasp, huh? Since did our "leaders" become yours? Or is it that your guys' policy is so effected by our gov'ts policies. Sorry if so. Hey did you guys get a load of Clinton falling asleep behind MLKing III? It was hilarious (embarrassing, though but still funny). What is the gov't situation like down under? Isn't it similar to Englands? O ris it like ours here in the states? Cheerio mate ... I guess I could look this info up but Mrs Ferris is wanting to get online herself since I have been hogging the pc up all day. (It was a rainy day at work and they decided that the lot of us needed to not get any wetter than we already were, so what better thing to do after getting back home? Go online, after I took a nap that is ...

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#31
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 4:30 PM

Our political system is very much like the British Westminster System. We have the parliament which consists of a lower house (House of Representatives) and an upper house (The Senate). We have 2 major parties and a few minor parties and 2 or 3 independent Members of Parliament (MP).

Which ever party holds the majority of seats in the lower house gets to choose the Prime Minister from among their number.

After a Federal election, when all the vote counting has been done and the seats are allocated, the leader of the victorious party will choose his Cabinet. These are the politicians that are to become Ministers. They become Minister for Defence, Minister for Health, Treasurer, etc. They get paid extra because of there extra work load.

Once the party leader has selected his Cabinet the whole bunch of them go of to visit the "Governor General". He represents the Queen and administers the Oath that makes them Officially MPs. This is much the same as in the UK except that the Governor General can sack the government if he feels that it is behaving inappropriately.

Our system is not a democracy in the Greek Athenian sense, it is a Representative Democracy. We get to vote for who represents us but not on particular issues. The exception to this is when we have a referendum. This is required to make changes to the constitution or if the government is too scared to change the law for fear of a backlash from the people.

One other thing about our system is that in Australia we have compulsory voting. If you are a citizen you have to vote or be fined.

I don't understand your system. You can have a President that does not have control of either house. The President gets elected by a college vote system that is based on a set number of votes per State rather than one vote per voter. Have I got that right?

But the thing that really frightens me about your system is the amount of money that is thrown at a Presidential campaign. This seams to guarantee that the next President of the United States will be the one with the best campaign manager, the biggest budget and the best script writers. Having friends with really deep pockets and that can come up with dirt on the other candidates seems to be useful also.

I wonder if now with the internet and internet security if we could get back to an Athenian Democracy where all the people with a right to vote could vote on every issue.

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#32
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 4:50 PM

"I wonder if now with the internet and internet security if we could get back to an Athenian Democracy where all the people with a right to vote could vote on every issue."

We probably could, but there's been so much controversy over that 'security', that it isn't much done, even for local elections. It's far too easy to hide the real results and stack the ballots in favor of whatever the program controllers prefer the result to be. Even machine voting with mechanical devices (punch cards) is right out these days. The Bush v Gore debacle in Florida with the 'hanging chads' should have made the news internationally, but if not, you can probably do a google search on that term and get a recap.

While there are certainly flaws in our ointment, the philosophy of checks and balances is a good one, I think. That's why it's not a given that the President and majority of Congress (House & Senate) will be all from the dominant party. It slows collusion, if any, and promotes debate that should inform the people. But if the people don't WANT to be informed, who's gonna stop them? BTW, the fine for not voting is an interesting concept. How much is it, and what's the revenue used for? Does it usually amount to much, or do most citizens vote?

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#35
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 11:24 PM

"the philosophy of checks and balances is a good one"

More clarity required.

I know we have a common language but despite Mr Microsoft's best efforts we still spell some things differently.

Did you mean checks or cheques as in cheque book.

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#36
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 1:08 AM

Woof! And all I wanted to know about was what people thought about the Universe

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#38
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 8:00 AM

Ain't this PART of the Universe, then?

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#40
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 10:23 PM

Dear Vermin, This is about the universe: the one we have created in our own image and likeness

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#41
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 10:35 PM

Then be the change you want to see in the world

-A little guy with glasses

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#43
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 12:14 AM

I am doing precisely that.

A big dragon with teeth

Dragon

P.S. for some inexplicable reason the bold, italics and underline tab no longer work

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#46
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 12:42 AM

They do, but you have to highlight the text that you want them to work on, like this.

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#47
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 9:58 AM

Hi vermin,

Do you know what the purpose of the "strikeout" feature is? Andy Germany posted this asking what it's for. I'm just curious.

-John

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#48
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:22 AM

Personally, I think it's there just to annoy Andy...

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#53
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 10:50 PM

Woof!!! That's a good one!!! Typically, strike out is used for updating text, where you want the previous text to still be seen for the sake of comparison.

"It is a well known fact that sharks come in on little cats feet." Correction, that should have been "fog."

I suppose it also servers the purpose of pissing some people off! For instance, you copy part of their post, strike it through, then respond by telling them why they're wrong.

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#68
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Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 11:10 AM

Thanks vermin.

Good answer. Makes no sense to me. Did you hear that Andy?

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#60
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Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:18 AM

Vermin, I have attempted to do so, but when I do the cursor ceases to work. And the icons become nonfunctional.

Dragon

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#63
In reply to #60

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:22 AM

Do you mean if you write something, then highlight it, that your cursor stops working?

What browser are you using? Foxfire (Firefox?).

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:34 AM

Vermin, Thank you for solving my problem. Before if I wished to type something Bold, in italics or underlined, I would click the icon then whatever I typed next would show as the form I had clicked. Now it works the way you suggested.

I have only started using a computer regularly a few years ago.Thank you again.

Dragon

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:41 AM

Actually, this is a recent change to how the CR4 editor works. At first, it left a lot of us scratching our heads!

By the way, here's a tip - If you want to use the subscript/superscript feature, just type a space, then highlight the space, and that will turn on all the functions.

I don't know why they did this. Chris! Any ideas?

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 1:30 AM

Vermin, Thank you again. As to why: You know very well that engineers can not leave well enough alone.

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#37
In reply to #35

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 7:58 AM

The non-monetary version. The theory is that having an Executive branch (President and cabinet), a Legislative branch (House of Representatives and Senate), and a Judicial branch (the Supreme Court), it is more difficult for any faction to gain totalitarian control. They check each other from attaining too much power, and they balance each other in creating, (legislature), defining (court), and implementing (executive) the laws that are the basis for the governance of the people. And the two-party system (Republicans and Democrats) with occasional attempts at other parties (some have included the Progressives, the Socialists, the Greens, the Independents, the Libertarians, and several other smaller ones) is supposed to get everyones' opinions on the ballot, so to speak. Obviously it doesn't always work, because there are liberalists' veiwpoints, conservatives' viewpoints, and several shades of middle-of-the-roaders, all contending for center stage. But in the end we reach a compromise that satisfies a few, offends a few, and does well enough for the vast majority. About all one can hope for, really...

The monetary version also comes into play however, in campaign finance. That's a very controversial topic, too!

There's a book, 1912, by James Chace, that does a very good job of explaining one of our most controversial election years. That was the Wilson/Taft/Roosevelt/Debs contest, representing respectively the Democrats, Republicans, Progressives (Bull Moose party), and Socialists. A fascinating read if you have even a marginal interest in historical politicking.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 8:27 PM

"Our system is not a democracy in the Greek Athenian sense, it is a Representative Democracy."

You've got it pretty much right. Without going into gory details, the US sytem is not a democracy but rather a republic.

"But the thing that really frightens me about your system is the amount of money that is thrown at a Presidential campaign."

Very sad, but very true! Seems like expensive advertising rules all major elections. The more votes one can get in Primary elections determines how much money one can use to advertise/campaign for more votes for upcoming elections. Weird huh?

-John

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 10:58 PM

We have toyed with the idea of limiting the amount of money that can be used for campaigning. This would mean that the campaign would have to run on good will and enthusiasm. I'm not sure if the marketing people will agree with this concept as it may just have an affect on their bottom line.

Do you have to declare where the money came from and where it was spent? Given the size of the figures this would probably keep a small army of accountants & auditors busy for a year after the election was over.

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 10:21 PM

BlueAussieBoy: yes there are limits to how much one can contribute, but when millions of dollars are involved, there are always ways around it. For example: the Clinton-Gore reelection campaign where several hundred thousand dollars were funneled through Buddhist nunneries from the Communist Chinese government in total violation of the law and where Mr. Gore excused it by stating that there was "No overriding legal authority to regulate this action".

And the Bush-Cheney campaign where millions of dollars have been funneled through companies like Halaburton for "economic growth".

There are always those who will find a way to rob, cheat, steal and murder for money and power. Our task as persons with honor is to make those without pay for their sins.

Dragon

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/30/2008 11:10 PM

Is this the Halaburton that owns every part of the Gulf War except for the enlisted soldiers?

Isn't that a conflict of interests?

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 12:21 AM

BlueAussieBoy, Congratulations and Huzzahs!! You are now qualified to receive the title "Master Cynic third class". New titles and Upgrades will be awarded as they are achieved.

Yes absolutely it is a conflict of interests. And every attempt to make the public aware of this fact has been ignored or sup-PRESS-ed usually by the PRESS.

B.T.W. Halaburton owns the soldiers too. The soldiers just don't know it.

Dragon

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 12:39 AM

You're forgetting Blackwater.

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#50
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 4:04 PM

I did think of Blackwater, that's why I said enlisted soldiers rather than just soldiers to differentiate from the mercenaries.

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#59
In reply to #45

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:14 AM

Vermin, Thank you for reminding us of that. You know age... the mind...something

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#49
In reply to #42

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:29 AM

The very same Haliburton, whose subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown, and Root (KBR) got the no-bid contract for civilian support (everything from food to fuel) of our military effort in the Middle East. And Dick Cheney is no longer the CEO of Haliburton. Riiiiight! If you believe that, you'd buy this watch...

(And it's a Rolex, honest!)

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#51
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 10:25 PM

I remember hearing tht when the troops first went over there to Iraq that halliburton was getting oil for an absurd amount... something that would be like 25cents a gallon (for the gas) and then they turned around and sold the same oil to the military for like 2 dollars or so... Profiteering...Do away with them ALL!

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#52
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 10:49 PM

If one was really cynical one could buy shares in a company like that and say they were supporting the war effort.

Getting back to the topic of popping out of one side of the universe and appearing back on the other side.

A company with the degree of moral fortitude that they obviously have may be tempted to encourage a war to go longer or hotter by leaning on the government (in which they might be seen to have a foothold) to send in more troops and material. Like a surge sought of thing. That could be possible/profitable and worth more than a passing thought if you thought that a change of government could influence the future profit margin. The other possibility would be to encourage the other side to resist and therefore require more countermeasures.

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#54
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Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 10:56 PM

It's going to be interesting to see how many office building fires break out on the night of the election if the Democrats are winning!!!

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:13 PM

Why Vermin, would there be any office buildings burning the night that (hopefully not) one of the LAME democratic puppets are voted into office? Revolt against them? I think most of the people will be like herd animals - following the pack. Vote for FERRIS for the office of President. I will do away with lobbyists, money being brought in from foreign entities (or China), and nafta. The United States will retain its sovereignity and not join the u.n. for anything like the law of the (chicken) of the sea treaty, or a north ameraican union . No mexamericanada here boys and girls, just the good ol' United States of America with ol' Glory flying high and proud.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:22 PM

"Shit! Shit! SHIT! We gotta get this stuff burned before the Democrats get here!!! Bush!"

"Yeah, Chaney?"

"You forgot to burn that building over there!!!"

"But that's just the General Accounti..."

"BURN IT! BURN IT! BURN IT!!!"

"Yes, sir!!!"

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:32 PM

Hey, you forgot the whole ummmm, hmmmmm, world trade center thing. Bush said he saw the 1st plane crash into the 1st tower before the footage was taken from the guys doing the training video with the NYFD. I saw somewhere an idea that a missle(s) had been fired from the sears tower (there was "video" showing trails of smoke coming from the side of the building facing the towers)... Look it up on you tube. Of course it could ALL be doctored... But what if it wasn't? (theme music from the Twilight Zone...................) tick tock

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#61
In reply to #58

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:18 AM

They're coming to get you, Barbara!!!

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#69
In reply to #56

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 11:19 AM

Forward! Forward to the Status Quo!

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#55
In reply to #52

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/31/2008 11:04 PM

Hmmmmm, Aussie boy, huh? What time is it there... It is almost like talking through time. It is Tuesday there, no? Cheerio.

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#64
In reply to #52

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:23 AM

BlueAussieBoy, Bingo! On the nose.

Dragon

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#62
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Re: The Back of my own head...

02/01/2008 12:21 AM

EnviroMan, Congratulations!! You have been promoted to Master Cynic Second Class!

Dragon

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#70
In reply to #62

Re: The Back of my own head...

02/04/2008 9:31 AM

"...promoted to Master Cynic Second Class..."

Thank you! I'm just SO proud...

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: The Back of my own head...

01/29/2008 10:56 AM

"No taxation without representation"

G'day, Mate - news flash - taxation WITH representation ain't so hot, either!!!

I do respect your guidance on how to properly handle politicians. Proper sanitation and hygeine are SO important! Say, you may be on to something here. If y'all vote for OUR candidates, and we vote for YOURS, we might both get a better roll of the dice, eh? If nothing else, it would help keep both nations on a friendly basis. If we p155 you off, you'd say 'well, here's the lot that'll be in charge of YOU, then' and vote in the lowlifes...but wait, we already do that to ourselves... Oh, never mind!

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