Previous in Forum: Natural Repellent for Ticks, Mosquitoes, Flies, Gnats and No-See-Ums   Next in Forum: Lead acid battery technology
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50

Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/14/2008 1:51 AM

Today, you can probably find polyethylene's friends on the short list. One of the simpler and earliest polymers, it has a lifetime of several hounded years - owing to its extreme stability. Almost nothing gets to it other than a bacteria that some kid found and presented as a science fair project.

Polyethylene is everywhere, and that's part of the problem! The estimated annual World production of polyethylene is 600 million tons!!! At least some of this production winds up as plastic grocery bags - the scourge of the environment! Owing to their lightness, strength, and chemical stability, they've been known to really cause troubles. For example, several floods have been attributed to drainage systems being accidentally clogged by these pesky bags. And more than one environmental group is lobbying hard for the end of plastic grocery bags - No paper, no plastic, just nice, reusable canvas. However, with all of polyethylene's problems, it does show some very interesting promise in the energy industry.

I bring your attention back to a thread that appeared on CR4 a number of months ago, specifically, Del the Cat's "Junkyard Battery Contest." I really got into that thread, and even after it basically died of old age, I continued to mess with the possibility of creating a cheap battery that would put out reasonable power at a very low cost. My design was to create two 1/2 cells that form a full cell battery. In this configuration, two dissimilar metals are submerged in a solution of their sulphate. For example, one 1/2 cell contained a piece of iron submerged in FeSO4, and the other 1/2 cell contained a piece of copper submerged in CuSo4. Each 1/2 cell is separated from the other by a porous separator. Here's where it gets weird...

The porous separator is very interesting in deed! It is a material that allows the charges from each solution to pass into each other, while at the same time it does not allow the two solutions to mix! A pretty neat trick!!! So, as I started development on my battery, I suddenly became aware that there are very few references to what exactly porous separators are made of. For instance, the "Battery Bible," an industry reference, mentions "porous separators," but not what they're made of. A few other references on the Web mentioned that the industry used wood at one time, then a type of paper (not specified), and several "sintered materials (again, not specified). I was getting nowhere fast in my hunt for separator materials!!! One hopeful possibility occurred in the form of the Gore Corp. web site (The folks that bring us Gortex™).

Core Corp. was willing to talk about their separator material based on Teflon™, and said that they would be happy to provide me a sample of their separator material... For $500.00. Woof!!!

After turning that little deal down, and with an almost complete lack of separator material information, I decided to start my own quest for a good separator material. So, very-then latex, no; very-thin vinyl, no; plastic wraps of various types, no; types of foam material, no; paper, no;... the list goes on. Each material I tried either would not pass the charges or would allow the solutions to mix, which killed the battery instantly. Then, with one double 1/2 cell box-set left, on a whim, I tried a square cut from a plastic grocery bag. At first, nothing. Then, within less than a minute my DMM was showing the exact voltage that should occur from the chemical reaction of iron and copper!!! Additionally, there was absolutely no mixing of the two solutions whatsoever! Wow!!! So I guess that's how science is really done!!!

So what did I learn from my experience other than how to construct a multi-cell battery? I believe I learned that one of the hardest things to develop is a really good separator material, and that those that do find a good one, tend to guard their information. You can always calculate the power that the chemistry will give you from a number of readily available tables, but finding the correct separator can take a company a long time to discover, and once discovered, they're not too willing to share that information.

So here's my final thought - Could polyethylene prove to be a good all-around porous separator material for batteries? Is it currently used extensively as such today? I do not know. Furthermore, one of the greatest problems in the fuel-cell industry is the cost of separator materials, these are calculated as the most expensive components of fuel-cell manufacture. However, if polyethylene is so chemically stable, as well as thermally stable (up to about 260° C), could polyethylene prove a viable separator material in fuel-cells? If yes, this would drastically reduce the cost, and bypass the the companies that may want to maximize profits at the cost of progress.

What does you's guys think? Any comments on this subject would be welcome. My discovery of polyethylene as a good separator material may have been an exercise in re-inventing the wheel. I don't know, you tell me!!!

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 5800
Good Answers: 114
#1

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/14/2008 2:18 AM

I suppose whatever reverse osmosis membrane is made out of is out of the question?

Catgut? [Sorry del]

synthetic felt?

What size pores do you think are required?

What other properties?

I remember your quest

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/14/2008 2:23 AM

I believe the pores have to be no bigger or smaller than 1 μm.

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16512
Good Answers: 670
#3

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/14/2008 3:52 AM

Hi Verm...great post, I didn't realize how much work you'd put in...
I hereby awward you the 'Junk Yard Battery' Prize.

I reckon the battery business and the solar cell business must be the hot cookies to be in these days...

If only I had some Quatlous I'd invest (I've lost 'em all on the wter burning engine and magnit machines)

I hope when you get that Nobel prize there will be some Tuna for me

Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/15/2008 1:41 AM

Finding the separator was what was taking me so long. As for my Quatlous, they're all safely invested in sub-par loans.

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 377
Good Answers: 2
#4

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/14/2008 9:56 AM

Very promising news on the separator.

I feel like a bad guy for liking those plastic bags so much.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/15/2008 1:43 AM

Well, I like 'em now more than I used to!

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1480
Good Answers: 28
#7

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/15/2008 7:19 AM

The big difference between the materials you used is the critical thickness and how to define: The latex and wraps are designed to be closed, this to conserve the contend or to protect.

The PE bags are designed for their strength and to achieve this they are cold formed. (just heat them, they will not keep their shape)

This results in a plastic sheet with very tiny holes, the PE is chemically stable, so the whole thing keeps its structure while allowing charges to pass through the holes. The holes are at all no problem for the mechanical strength.

The Gore-Tex membranes just act the same, only the holes are made in a very controlled process. this results in very stable hole sizes and quantities.

When you would require the membranes in a process of making 10K batteries a day, you will find yourself again using a product of the Gore-Tex grade. It is even unsure that PE can be handled with the same stability as PTFE.

But nice job on showing what real research and development stands for: taking that last hurdle.

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/16/2008 1:32 AM

Hey, Gwen.Stouthuysen

I was aware of the "thinness problem," and always pushed that to its limits. Also, polyethylene (because of it's stability) is used for all sorts of stuff - just in the bag world, it's used for those pink anti-static bags, also for freezer bags because charge transfer doesn't seem to spoil food, but moisture leakage does. Also for bags that are sealed by a heated wire - Cry-O-Vac.

One thing about the Gore corporation... I don't exactly think their separator material is as precise as some may think. They basically create a felt out of Teflon™, and any felting process is bound to have differentials. Another thing that makes their product more expensive is that Teflon is wholly owned by DuPont®, to which you pay a hefty license fee for anything useful that's derived from their products. And as far as I was told, Gore makes most of their money with their separator in Li-ion batteries, and not fuel cells.

Don't get me wrong, this is not sour-grapes! I thank anyone who's willing to post and make observations/suggestions. I'd just like to see someone try using polyethylene in a fuel-cell configuration and see if it works, which is way beyond my capabilities at this time!

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Guru
Belgium - Member - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Glabbeek, Belgium
Posts: 1480
Good Answers: 28
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/16/2008 3:15 AM

The thickness difference between the grocery bags and the food congelation bags is huge. The second is also a much shorter PE chain, to improve the flexibility and to close the holes which occur with the longer chains which improve mechanical stability.

We use PE as core material for some of our heating cables. Doped with some nasty stuff it becomes a nice self regulating electrical heating element which is 100% safe against overheating. But this is only achieved after the complete processing which contains a cross linking step. PE can easily be cross linked after processing, resulting in a polymer with even better properties regarding thermal stability and gas diffusion. (PEX tubing for sanitary use)

You are right about the high thermal stability, but do never forget the low recrystallisation temperature, it makes it impossible to use standard PE above 85°C.

But the high chemical stability makes PE the easiest to process: molding can be done by pouring the molten PE in a hole, using simple tools. Due the fact you don't need pressure to get the polymer distributed, nice things can be made in low quantities by rotary molding in cheap molds (drums, child's play parts, ...)

__________________
"Here we are now, entertain us"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/16/2008 4:22 AM

You obviously know way more about polyethylene than I do!!!

I got most of my info off Wikipedia after the fact. One thing I noticed about the material is its simplicity, basically ethane made to form long chains. Also, the Wikipedia article pointed toward useful temperatures more like 260° C. Am I wrong? Of course, this is taking into account all four types of polyethylene.

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 96
Good Answers: 5
#13
In reply to #9

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/28/2008 1:57 PM

Gwen Could you elaborate regarding recrystallisation and 'nasty bits' please?

__________________
Mark Taylor, Senior Technical Advisor, CV Bli Tek, Bali, Indonesia.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#11

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/27/2008 10:28 AM

price

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5356
Good Answers: 50
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

06/27/2008 5:08 PM

Price what???

__________________
"Perplexity is the beginning of dementia" - Professor Coriolus
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#14

Re: Polyethylene Possibilities?

07/08/2008 2:55 AM

One can never have enough wheels. That Del battery thread ain't dead yet. I'll go wash my anonymous face in shame.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 14 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); electrone (1); Garthh (1); Gwen.Stouthuysen (2); Tamu (1); user-deleted-1105 (1); vermin (6)

Previous in Forum: Natural Repellent for Ticks, Mosquitoes, Flies, Gnats and No-See-Ums   Next in Forum: Lead acid battery technology

Advertisement