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Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/02/2008 10:36 AM

My objective is to create a 100% Renewable energy Chevy Pick-up. I'm requesting suggestions for a suitable electric motor and battery storage. Once the vehicle is complete It will parked and charged in a PV roofed enclosure. Thank you, Thom

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#1

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 1:55 AM

Do you remember how Chevy and Dodge use to have the gas tank right behind the drivers seat. Thats where I would place the battery with a fiberglass cover and vent out to relase any fumes. That should cut down on maintance that external storage cause.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 5:40 AM

Yes I do and thats a great Idea. I had also thought of a fake floor in the bed and running the the batteries there. I have been worried though about a collision. Behind the seat would be more protected. Thanks, Thom

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#3

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 8:29 AM

You could remove the accelerator, brake, and clutch pedals and replace them with the pedals and chain from a Schwin...

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 9:33 AM

don't laugh at guests his idea is not original but a good one. apparently a artist and four of his buddies up in canada made the switch to schwinn power for a ford fairlane.

they even got a speeding citation that was tossed becsue the j.p. could not determine if it was a piece of mobile sculpture or a car.

'da ber

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 9:47 AM

Thank you, However I will stick with solar for my energy source. Still interested in propulsion ideas.

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#6

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 10:59 AM

You might try EV-America for your motor and parts. They also have conversion kits.

You might also think about hydraulics for your drive train. They have a high power density and you can drive the hydraulic pump with an electric motor. If you use an accumulator you should be able to smooth out the load demands on the batteries. An accumulator stores hydraulic energy. You can also use them for regenerative braking. With an accumulator you can recover more of the braking energy, up to 70%, then you can with recharging the batteries with your electric motor. They are starting to use this design, at least the hydraulic side, in delivery trucks. UPS has a few on the road. If you go hydraulic then you can ether mount the motors at the hubs, at the transmission or directly to the drive shaft. If you have the old 3 speed manual transmission then you could replace the gas motor with a little hydraulic motor and the truck would still drive like it used to, that would be cool.

Since you want to go all electric you should be able to keep the demands on your batteries at a constant and let the hydraulics take the big loads like getting your truck rolling. You shouldn't need a VFD speed controller, which is expensive, to control the DC motor operating the hydraulic pump, you can just start and stop the motor. If you use a vane hydraulic pump they are a no startup load pump they slowly load the electric motor, which will will keep the max amps to the barrery low. You should not ever have a high amp draw which is a killer for batteries.

I've also had an idea about batteries. Did you know that the first generation Toyota Prius hybrid used D-cell batteries? Try www.all-battery.com if you are interested in building your own battery pack. I know it sounds crazy but you can build a high amp high voltage, low profile battery pack pretty cheap. They have 10,000 mAH Nimh D-cell's. You would want to use a high voltage, 130 volts plus, DC motor with this type of battery pack though. I think the Prius uses something like 500 volts but I'm not sure of that.

I've looked into this a little bit and I"m hoping to build an hydraulic car soon. I think I can do it a lot cheaper then an all electric car. The motors alone for an electric car can be more then $1500.00 dollars. I don't think I'm going to go all electric because I just don't have enough money to do that. But I've got a little 20 HP diesel motor that I'm going to work with, at least at first. I would really like to go to all electric. If I do then I will use more then one electric motor hydraulic pump set. If I do that then I can stage each set on as I need more power.

If you really are interested in the hydraulics then try www.surpluscenter.com it is a great web site and you can find all kinds of stuff, not just hydraulics.

Well good luck with your truck. It sounds really interesting and I'd like to hear more about what you have planned.

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#11
In reply to #6

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/05/2008 10:24 AM

fishpipes,

I was interested to read your comments about hydraulic transmissions.

It is something I too have considered developing - for a future project.

Maybe you have information on what type & spec. of hydraulic motor is most suitable for driving a rear differential. I have always been under the impression that hydraulic drives are very torquey, but slow. What motor are you planning on using?

Also, why would anyone go: battery-electric motor-hydraulic pump-accumulator-hydraulic drive?

I can see it would save on complex power control circuitry, but surely that would be outweighed overall.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/05/2008 3:56 PM

You need so sort of power source to drive the hydraulic's. And with going electric I'm thinking that you can get good power managment and it keeps the controls simple. As far the the weight yes the weight will add up but remember you are replacing a motor and transmission. You can afford to put a little back in.

Your right about hydraulic motors having plenty of torque. And yes finding the right motor is becoming a chanllenge because the high torque motors are low RPM motors. The gearing is what is going to be the challenge for me. You have to get the right motor with the right RPM with the right torque. I would like to use hub mounted motors, but adapting the motor to the hubs is going to be a challenge as well.

I'm still in the planning stages with my design but I'm starting to but the parts togather and hope to start putting something togather over the winter. I'm still looking for a car. I had a little ford Escort lined up but that deal fell through, so if anyone knows. I'mlooking for a good little car with a blown motor and transmission. I really wish I could find a Fiero but I think I'm dreaming on that one.

And Shep if you would like to talk about hydraulic's I would love to. I'm a learn it as you go kind of person so I've never worked with them except for my tractor. But I've been doing a lot of research. Some of my ideas are pretty unconventional. I've talked to a hydraulic engineer and he keeps going "You can't do that you can't do that, well maybe you can do that" So I'm getting excited in putting my ideas to the test.

Good luck with your design.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/06/2008 7:18 AM

fishpipes,

I am all too happy to share ideas on how best to use hydraulics in this way. Being as neither of us are working for multi-nationals, I'm guessing that any actual projects either of us could conceivably undertake is going to be governed by a "what cheap junk is available" approach to R&D!

That said there are some prerequisites for the parts we might need & I do think, like you, that sourcing a hydraulic motor that is 'matched the load' (the car) is going to be the biggest headache.

With a quick bit of research, I found this image:

this shows that even on something a lightweight as a bike, hydraulic drives are manageable. The motor is actually in the hub (yellow centre bit) and is a radial piston motor. Also, look up: 'Practical Hydraulic Systems: Operation & Troubleshooting For Engineers & Technicians' on Google books. It looks quite an informative book from a quick glance. Some of the pages are hidden as you have to buy it to see it all.

It states (page 75): "Piston motors are most efficient type & offer up to 12000 rpm & 5000 psi".

Even if you can't find a motor with ideal rev range & torque you can fine-tune the gearing by selecting a differential with a good ratio, plus your wheel diameter is 'gearing' as well.

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/20/2008 4:47 AM

David. Please contact me regarding your 'project'. Best Wishes, Tom

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#7

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 11:48 AM

Like this one

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 3:47 PM

Dadw5boys, I appreciate your responses how ever I think this frame off restoration uses methane as a fuel source. However I have posted it on my shop board for possible future conversion ideas. Fishpipe, I wish we lived closer I think we would have fun together in the shop. Excellent direction thanks.

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 10:07 PM

don't suppose you ever saw a bennet buggy?

this was a multi use eco freindly family sized sedan that was popular up in canada in the 1930's.

the frame was generally built on a g.m. chassis i think it may be where the chrysler citroen came up with the une cheval engine system that gave the owners tremendous fuel economy and little if any real maintainance, the problem was though in the winters the cabin portion of the b.b. was real drafty.

'da ber

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#9

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/03/2008 3:59 PM

Welcome aboard! Our member Blink has posted LOTS about appropriate electric motors for cars, some of it in the last week. Try a search for his posts...

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#14

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/06/2008 10:43 PM

Topper - renewable energy from where? Electricity is mostly made from nuclear or coal generation. Solar electric can be very expensive, as can wind power. Ethanol or vegetable oil may be less expensive, one could also digest vegetable matter and waste to make methanol. Fuel made from plants is 100% renewable.

Convert the truck into a short-range EV with a generator on board to recharge the batteries. To power the generator you could use an IC engine, but that would produce more pollution than using a small light steam engine and the steam engine would be more efficient. Check out Lamont water-tube boilers, one to power a truck could be about the size of a hatbox, 14-18" dia. 13-16" high. Some interesting engines are the Cyclone, the Lysholm expander, the Green Steam Engine, the compound double-acting uniflow and the Tesla Turbine.

Operation would be simple, just turn the key and drive. The steam engine would start and stop automatically as needed. Heat strips would prevent freezing. It could also reduce fuel consumption by about 80% as most driving would be done on electric power for short ranges.

Got a lot of good info from - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - just e-mail and ask about steam-electric hybrids. You might consider this type of conversion.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/07/2008 11:24 AM

interesting position but if irecall the experiments and actual building of a steam thresher we had to have something that would allow the steam to build up in a containment device similar to those you refer to. we never did figure out how the steam could be produce on site without a external combustion source heating the water in the boiler to a level at which steam pressure was developed. i am afraid i do nat see a reference to how onergy can be developed wihout the expending of another form of energy.

apparently those inca savages had no idea the methods they had for alloying of silver and gold as a means of developing what the educated call parabolic reflectors which allowed them near steam heated water to be available for cracking rock. it seem to imagine the system they developed and about the same time in the owrlds histroy seems close paralleled the barbarian rusks aka vikings who used "crudely made" lenses produced in the northern lands as a collector concentrators of light to create the heat for steam baths they had in the winter time.

is there something i am n missing in this whole discusion?

'da ber

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/26/2008 6:41 PM

A steam thresher has absolutely nothing to do with what I am referring to, barfnagler.

Topper wants to run a green truck. He has choices to make which may be expensive or impractical or just not in keeping with being zealously purist. The source of electricity is one of those. It can be very expensive to try to produce your own. Photovoltaics and other solar options only charge during the day, requiring an expensive change-out set of batteries if he wants to drive in the daytime.

If he can compromise and use electric power from the grid for off-peak recharging he can save a lot of money. Of course using power from the grid is not pure green, but it is cleaner than using an IC engine. The problem with that is he won't get far or very fast if he converts to a pure plug-in EV, 20-25 miles from home tops at 40-45 mph and less if he carries a load.

I always appreciate comments from those who know nothing about steam power and have done no research. A Lamont boiler is a very small and efficient boiler of the very safe water-tube design. If Doble had used one in his steam car it would have been about half the size of the one he used and it would have still powered the 2 ton car at 85 mph.

I think a Lysholm expander or a Tesla Turbine would work better as a steam engine, since the main purpose of the steam engine is to run a generator. The generator would keep the batteries charged so you could go farther and faster. These types of steam engines also do not require superheated "dry" steam and can operate at lower temperatures.

"we never did figure out how the steam could be produce on site without a external combustion source heating the water in the boiler to a level at which steam pressure was developed."[sic] Well, DOH! It is totally impossible to make steam without an external combustion source if the site is a car. Reflectors and lenses could do it at stationary sites in the daytime. " i am afraid i do nat see a reference to how onergy can be developed wihout the expending of another form of energy. [sic] Ultimately almost all energy in any form comes from the fusion power of the Sun. Oil and coal are the result of ancient plant life which used the energy of the sun to grow. As for parabolic reflectors and lenses, THEY DON"T WORK AT NIGHT, and one may need to drive at night. Your whole paragraph about the "inca" [sic] and "barbarian rusks aka vikings" has no connection to converting a truck to make it run green.

Ethanol, methanol and vegetable oil are the cleanest, most natural fuels around and are also CO2 neutral. However using them in an IC engine produces more pollution than in External Combustion with a forced draft. Therefore using these clean fuels to make steam to generate electricity to extend the range of a plug-in EV truck to that of an IC truck makes sense. It may not suit the most zealous purists, but it is practical.

Interesting side note on the Incas: They did make little gold models of aircraft as jewelry. When enlarged in scale to the size of model planes and equipped with motors they did fly and also showed signs of advanced aeronautical technology. Look up "Piri Reis maps" and you will see some things that are surprising.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

10/26/2008 9:12 PM

well what an interesting response.

i have no idea where you came up with the idea a bennet buggy was/is some kind of steam thresher machine.

apparently the idea that removing the engine and driveline from a lasalle , chev or whatever and putting a pair of traces on it for the horse to pull the much lighter vehicle is something that you and many other readers have not heard of, or seen. gee i thought any one up in canada would know this idea was popular in the dirty thirties on the prairies, it came about when the president of canada a guy named bennet made the cost of oil and gas so far outta sight for the midwestern farmers to afford they eventually said c.y.f.we came up with a real natural way of getting real horsepower to work for us.

if topper wants to have a green truck he does not have to go to the expense of setting up any knid of p.v.s.p. heck it doesn't even need batteries. talk about ecologically supportive transportation three bags of oats and alfalfa plus a bale or two of hay, and he even gets the opportunity to have old manure for his back 20 next planitng.

'da ber

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Frame Off Restoration: 1956 Chevy Apache

11/01/2008 7:30 PM

"the experiments and actual building of a steam thresher" were your words. You did not mention "a bennet buggy", something apparently only known locally. Using real horses is not a viable option for what Topper wants to do.

Neither did your post indicate in any way that you were not speaking about steam when you mentioned using fuel. It seems that I missed the point of your inadequate post and that caused us both to be confused as to what the other was saying. Let's leave it at that.

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