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Accoustic insulation

11/29/2008 3:16 AM

I appreciate if someone can explain the accoustic insulation specification selection and application methods for the party rooms and home theatre as well as the agencies who can study and execute the order.

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#1

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/29/2008 8:02 PM

Hello Vasu, my name is Chris Soul, and my company (www.csoulpro.com) is based in new york and we largely consult, design, and build theaters, studios and provide other acoustical services.

Although I am not entirely sure what you are asking, I will do my best to give you a quick overview of acoustic insulation and its application. The reason for this is to illustrate that there is much more to taking on such a project than just insulation alone. Home theaters are becoming more prevalent, and a great part of my business has been to take the big theater experience and bring it into your home.

Remember that in any situation, there are two major areas for discussion. One is sound absorption, and one is sound isolation. So when you build a theatre, you want to isolate outside sources of sound, and keep internal sound in.

Perhaps the most important part of this is once you have the construct built, you must install acoustical treatments internally, to prevent the sound being generated by the theater system to just bounce off all of the walls, giving you ghost reflections, phasing issues (wave cancellation) and a myriad of other problems. This is where acoustic insulation truly comes into play.

Acoustic insulation is rated a bit differently than the mostly known "R" rating which is a heat rating. Any insulation will have an R rating, but acoustic insulation (batts,etc.) usually differs in manufacturing to provide more absorption of sound waves. Usually, we use different types of insulation to achieve different results. The DENSITY of acoustic insulation is very important. Your goal is to have sound penetrate the insulation, and be absorbed enough to not come back to the user.

Density and thickness usually determine absorption rates, and different materials (fiberglass, mineral wool) are used to achieve different results.

Another important point is that it is the merging of different insulation and materials that achieve the proper results. So, if you wish to subdue the lower frequencies in a room, you must utilize "bass trapping", which is a specific way to use acoustic insulation in order effectively achieve your goal of feeling that "rumble" of the low end in your movie without having the low end reverberate all over the room, interfering and masking other frequencies.

Another important point is to have the right type of insulation covered by the right "acoustic fabric", meaning one that allows for the proper permeation of sound waves so that the insulation can do its job effectively.

Also, in acoustic technology, we use "STC" (sound transmission class) to refer to the ability of any construct or material to block sound waves from penetration, usually due to high mass and even the use of sound absorbing insulation as well. The higher the STC rating, the better a wall, treatment, etc. blocks sound penetration. It is determined by testing frequencies between 125Hz and 4000Hz.

I hope I have answered some of your questions and have prompted you to ask more questions. I will check this thread for progress I must step out now but will add other info when I can.

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#2

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/29/2008 9:36 PM

Thank you for the infn. Consultant suggested to apply 32 kg/m3 density and 50mm thk glasswool on the celing and sidewalls.Hope to get more inf about the subject .

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#3

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/30/2008 1:42 AM

Hello vasu,

I have listed at the top the ASTM and NBS Standards for Acoustic Insulation.

Below is a whole list of other sites which may be useful. I hope they are!

Good luck.

======================================

This page is the first of the Detailed regulations by certified bodies:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enGB294GB294&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=acoustic+insulation+specification+selection&spell=1

======================================

Take care................

      .........
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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/30/2008 9:04 AM

thanks muchly mr. bear, this info would hav e been of great value a few years back wjen i had a job to do that involved sound dampening for stages of community centrer hall where the local teens hired rock groups to play at thier events. one in particualr had thier amplifiers so loud the class in the leaded windows actually broke, the trouble was no one but the swissies could hear the sound because it was so high pitched. that was nearly a block away from the rec center.

again thanks for the info and redirects.that will be passed on to the county property standards agents.

'da ber

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#13
In reply to #3

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/04/2008 12:58 AM

I have to agree wholeheartedly on the Denon selection, I recommend them almost exclusively. They make pro gear and I have never- and I mean never had a problem with them for many years.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/04/2008 1:38 AM

Hello csoulpro:

Yes good products!

I actually have a problem now. I have a hearing problem and want to insulate using denon. What is it like? Is it the kind of think that is a fixture or can they be moved if, for instance you rent a place? Any ideas?

Take care..............

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/05/2008 7:44 PM

Babybear, the Denon unit is a receiver, and will power your full surround sound speaker system. It is also rack mountable, and yes you take it wherever you go.

I am confused as to what you mean by insulate using denon.

You need acoustics to insulate, and some installations are permanent, (always the soundproofing is permanent) but I do make (standard sizes and custom) acoustic paneling that you can take off the walls and ceilings and take with you if you move. You may have to utilize different mounting scenarios if you want to insure easy deconstruction, but it is more than possible.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/06/2008 4:17 AM

Hello csoulpro:

I got things a little twisted there, sorry.

I did not mean to ask specifically about Denon with ref' to sound proofing. I have had a Denon Amp before and it was brilliant. Can't recall the details of it now.

I suppose it was a silly question anyway..........Oh well Will have to sound proof and leave it when I go I guess.

Thanks for the reply post!

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/06/2008 8:48 PM

Soundproofing and isolation will have to stay, but all of your acoustical treatments you should always take with you. That part of the investment is never a loss !

You can treat your space with acoustics to make the room sound better without isolating the room, but I am sure your neighbors and such will hate hearing your action movies from next door right ?

You are right, Denon gear is brilliant !

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/07/2008 4:19 PM

Hello csoulpro:

I very much appreciate your reply post, thank you.

I would have thought walls and ceilings in building designed to be flats of 'condo's' would have been more or less sound proof? Just shows how much I know right! Walls and floors/ceiling are concrete, and where there is now carpet any noise is just like it was in my own place. I am almost getting used to it 9 months later! But it catches me out sometimes. This morning the little girl upstairs, she is just crawling but, she was playing with what sounded like coins, or small bricks, and, if I did not know better I would have thought she was in the hall three feet, one metre away!

Take care..............

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#5

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/30/2008 10:35 AM

Hello vasu,

This water you speak of can seem murky at best but Chris post #1 has a good reputation and the post is accurate.

Acoustic application is done by specification and with a good dose of experience, not every location will benefit well from the specs unless the correct combination is applied.

I think I think I'm giving a referral

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#6

Re: Accoustic insulation

11/30/2008 11:33 PM

Hello frd,

I would like to gives some hints on the Acoustic Insulation of walls and the material product characteristics. Basically acoustic Insulation is reducing the spread of airborne and structure borne sound .

we should consider some factors before selecting the Insulating material 1. Transmission factor (T) of a wall 2. The sound reduction index (R) of a wall .3 The fixed value of the weighted sound reduction index Rw(c, ctr). Rw+C corresponds to the weighted sound reduction index calculated in dB(A) for a pink noise at the source side and Rw+ctr corresponds to the weighted sound reduction index calculated in dB(A) for a traffic noise at the source side . Both of the values are calculated from the values of the third octave measurements between 100 and 3150 HZ.

The heavier the single wall the better its isolating characteristics. Double walls are formed by two single walls separated by an airlayer or by insulating material (Mineral wool , Plastic foams ) .

For an acoustic Insulation i would like to suggest a porous materials . The sound absorption process of a porous material results from the friction between the oscillating air molecules and the interior surface of the pores or structures . Mineral wool would be the best material for your consideration .

Regards

Earnest.

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#7

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/01/2008 12:59 AM

Hi vasu yup click that link

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#8

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/01/2008 8:26 PM

I'm back, sorry for the delay, and thank you bwire for the kind words, I am an admirer of yours from afar. Always appreciate a valued opinion I say. To delve a little deeper this time, let us look at the whole picture, one step at a time.

Knowing acoustic insulation density and things of this nature are great, but it does not help you in knowing how much treatment you need, what kind of treatment, and where to put them. You can suck all of the reflections and high end frequencies out of a room, and the low end could be swimming around the room. The way I attack any acoustical situation starts with the room itself (shape, size) and the monitoring system.

The room itself is the most critical of aspects here. For true acoustical separation a room is normally "floated" which means suspended from the floor. All walls are built upon it, truly "isolating" a room from the surrounding rooms or areas.

More importantly, shape and size matter. If you are dealing with a room that is square, well, welcome to MY nightmare. Acoustically speaking, a square or rectangle room is a logistical nightmare. You basically allow all reflections to bombard the listener exponentially. The smaller the room, the earlier the sound waves bounce off of the walls and ceilings and right back to the user.

A theater, is based on at least a 5.1 surround sound speaker system, (5 tops and one subwoofer). A larger room or longer room would allow for a larger system, most likely a 7.1 or 7.2, (the latter has 2 subs). Just remember that the "focal point" is the center seating where the listener is stationed, whether the room is large or small. From here is where the center channel and R and L speakers should be aligned for the most optimum listening experience.

To elaborate a little bit more about acoustic nomenclature, we must address what we professionals call isolation, absorption, and diffusion.

Isolation- Covered before, but briefly, it is the actual isolation of both environments, your theater and the rest of humanity. Using mass, or the CORRECT materials, you can provide great isolation than just more and more layers of drywall and "soundboard" (what a crock). I use superior materials so I can achieve maximum results in smaller places especially.

Absorption- This refers to the internal acoustical treatments that you install to absorb all the unwanted frequencies and reflections. Typically, you get what you pay for. Cheaper, foam based (especially) technology DOES NOT absorb multiple frequencies ! Usually it is high frequencies that are absorbed, and as I often say, "what about the rest of the spectrum ?".

Diffusion- Although I admit that most theaters do not have enough diffusion, it is necessary. Diffusion is the concept that is even more relevant in square or rectangle shaped rooms, because it allows the sound waves to be dispersed in multiple directions, allowing the absorption arrays to work even more efficiently.

So when I design acoustics, it is widely determined on the monitoring system (speakers) and the room itself. But here are a few questions you should be asking yourself. Is it a theater with ascending seating ? How tall is the ceiling ? What shape is the room ? What about HVAC ? (very important !!!) How much isolation do you need to keep sound from your theater to the rest of your house/neighbor ? How much isolation do you need to keep outside noise out ? Do you have the right speaker system for the size room you have ? How much acoustic treatment do you need and where to put it ? How much low end Freq "trapping" do you need ?

Once again, I hope I don't confuse anyone, and I look forward to seeing more posts. Some of those link suggestions are "spot on" too. Just remember, that all the computer imaging equipment and spectrum analyzation can get you exactly where you were before, nowhere. Sometimes, it just pays to have a good set of ears and a damn good brain in between them !

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/01/2008 9:30 PM

yours is detail. acoustic process is a complex issues, not anyone familiar with the problem of How much low end Freq "trapping" do you need

so, it needs designer decide on the site, how much stand wave in his room and what material and what size of the trapping or diffusion body need.

Different requirement needs diffferent reverb time, so that you will need differnt docration.

your web pages seems to involve too large content to access.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/01/2008 9:45 PM

Hi cnpower, how are you ? Sorry if the site is slow, It should move pretty quickly, over here it is quite fast. All my pages are html pages, but are heavily embedded with pictures. If it could be faster, I don't know. I guess that's the price for designing a website yourself ! What is your internet connection ? Or what is the speed I should say ?

Also, if you have trouble, download the latest version of "firefox", an amazing web browser that is made for all platforms (windows, Apple, or linux systems) and is much faster than internet explorer or netscape. You can find it here:

http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/products/

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/02/2008 2:51 AM

May it caused by those pictures buildin it. you may reduce volume by jpg format than bmp format.

I cannt tell you exactly how much the net speed is. because when I intent access to your page I have to go through narrow exort line from china. Thats why slow.

Its not caused by browser, no matter what browser is , the bottle neck exist at export line. Once you go abroad, you may be aware of it.

The worst was when I turned back, I got a warning, there are three viruses.and auto linked to a 2009 antivirsus web site. its odd.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/04/2008 12:52 AM

Thank you so much for the warning cnpower ! I added many new music podcast pages this month, and I hadn't checked the rest of my site to check for all my proper transfers. I am working so heavily on them I don't spend the right amount of time checking all of my links, I apologize.

You only get those messages because my server cannot load the page properly so it goes there instead, why, I don't really know.

My hosting company had this problem when my (virtual) server went down last year. So I will correct these issues promptly.

You are right, My site is heavily embedded in html with tons of jpegs. This does make it slower. I am currently designing a new site with different software that is much friendlier with other browsers and platforms as well. More png files, they are less cumbersome.

Thank you again !

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: Accoustic insulation

12/05/2008 7:34 PM

Cnpower, thank you again, I have made all of the fixes necessary, there were issues with errant scripts in the web pages, you will no longer get those crazy messages. I am sorry once again for that, and I appreciate you alerting me to those problems.

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