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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: LA, CA
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HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/12/2009 11:58 PM

Hello,

I've been pondering a problem I've been experiencing with this exhibit. It has a high voltage transformer (Franceformer 10530P) and it sends voltage up these rabbit ears which at a point start to arch. IE: http://media.putfile.com/Franceformer-15030P This setup is enclosed within plexi and only has a few vent holes at the top. What I've seen happen is that there is some liquid buildup at the base of the enclosed rabbit ears, the rabbit ears are apparently made of copper and they corrode very quickly. Also, the transformer is also enclosed within plexi but with a wood base. Please note that where the liquid has formed at the base of the ears, the system at some point arched enough as to cut groves on top of the plexi at the base. Also, at the transformer, the terminals and bolts used to secure the plexi box to the wooden frame also becomes corroded.

I'm an electronics technician by trade but I have a feeling that since the system isn't properly ventilated - that a gas builds up and this results in the liquid buildup at the base of the rabbit ears - which in turns resulted in the arching across the top of the plexi. Also - a similar phenomena is happening with the transformer and its' terminals since they too are corroding very fast; albeit with very little liquid buildup. The corners of the transformer are seemingly being corroded away too - so we're replacing that.

Can anyone explain what's happening?

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#1

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 12:36 AM

This is an exhibit, you said? What kind of exhibit? Could someone possibly be screwing with it? Sabotaging it or something?

This happened to me during my state's science fair. Some twit didn't want me to place and so he broke another bloke's mercury barometer, took the mercury and poured it into my laser's HV supply, shorting it (the damage was very minor and I was up and running in about an hour).

If not sabotage, can you see the liquid build-up in your apparatus? Is there condensation forming anywhere?

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#2

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 8:13 AM

You seem to be describing a device known as a "Jacob's Ladder". The spark starts at the bottom of the "rabbit ears" and travels up to the top.

The corrosion you see is likely caused mostly by the buildup of ozone inside the plexi chamber. The arc exciteds the oxygen in the air and turns some of it into ozone, which is very corrosive in high concentrations. I'm not at all surprised that it corrodes items inside the plexi.

The liquid is another matter. It could be a residue from the ozone breaking down the copper or some other item(s) in the chamber. Or it could be a weak nitric acid compound formed by the arc and the nitrogen + humidity present in the chamber.

To lessen the corrosion, you could try drilling more holes in the chamber (especially down low, since ozone is slightly heavier than air). You may even have to mount a small fan to the chamber to force fresh air in. That won't stop corrosion completely, but it may slow it somewhat. The rabbit ears will degrade a little over time just from the arc itself.

And you won't stop acid formation unless you lower the ambient humidity. This may be more trouble than it's worth to you. You might prefer to just clean the unit on a frequent basis.

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#3

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 11:16 AM

Yes, it is an exhibit from the exhibit: Goose Bumps: The Science of Fear - Specifically: "Fear of Electrical Shock."

I forgot the name when I posted, and yes - it is a Jacobs Ladder. Those are pretty much what we had guessed at, although not knowing what was happening exactly. Our plan is to push air in from the bottom and force it up through 'the tower' for ventilation.

Thanks!

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 1:31 PM

You may have to experiment a little. Too much wind blowing through the tower may disrupt the rising arc. Otherwise, the more air exchange in the tower the better.

There's another issue: If the tower makes a lot of ozone then people viewing the exhibit may notice the odor. But perhaps not. But even if so, there are ways to mitigate that.

Glad I could help. Good luck!

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 2:54 PM

"... there are ways to mitigate that."

  • Seal the holes and fill the enclosure with pure helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon or radon. None of these will react with your electrodes. Radon looks especially cool and is fun to watch while waiting for the HazMat team to show up, followed by Homeland Security.
  • Put it in a vacuum chamber along with your neighbor's shitzu. Read R.L. Stine's "The Demon Dog" meanwhile.
  • Turn it off.
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#6
In reply to #5

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 3:39 PM

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of piping it outside, dispersing it over a wider area or destroying it via heat or (getting extreme) an ozone scrubber.

But your ideas are excellent as well. Not sure where one would buy radon though. Maybe you can run hoses to a few hundred basements? Or maybe you "know a guy" that sells it out of his trunk?

By the way, you can coat the copper rods with various common chemicals and that will change the arc color. Info on this can be found on the Internet. A table salt solution is one, but that kind of brings us full circle back to a corrosion problem.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 3:53 PM

What about the dog exorcism? An exorcism would be right down R.L. Stine's alley (the Goosebumps series' author). Sure, you might get a little corrosion from it - depending on the dog's particular demon (some of them are quite caustic, believe me) - but just imagine what a hit that would be at the show? Their booth would be SRO and might even need a separate convention center!

Harry Potter? Step aside!

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/18/2009 1:56 PM

ROFL!!

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#9
In reply to #3

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/14/2009 5:47 AM

The source of moisture is probably the "Plexi". If it is polycarbonate, it can be a real problem around arcs. It is not allowed within flameproof enclosures. I have seen where it was wrongly used and the ozone etc basically ignited the polycarbonate. The force of gas was incredible pushing material out past every flame path and really sooting up the incoming plug. Luckily the device had only been installed in the NERZ, if it has been installed in the ERZ as designed it may have blown the pit up.

Ventillating the case to dilute the ozone will help as will drainage and increasing the dimensions of the enclosure to reduce the electric field effect.

ERZ = Explosion Risk Zone, Nerz = NegligibleERZ

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#8

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/13/2009 11:59 PM

Hi,

The device you have is a often called a Jacob's Ladder or horn gap. Although "cold" corona discharges will generate ozone, hotter sparks and arcs (such as in your display) tend to generate generate various oxides of nitrogen. While ozone is a powerful oxidizer, it is not the source of your problems. Heat is the enemy of ozone - the hot arcing discharges will actually tend to destroy any ozone that may be in the area.

Hotter electrical discharges (such as arcs, sparks, and even lightning) generate various oxides of nitrogen that can ultimately create nitrous and nitric acids. The heat of the electrical arc breaks up the nitrogen-nitrogen bonds of the nitrogen (N2) in the air, oxidizing it to create nitric oxide (or nitrogen monoxide) via the following reaction:

Electrical Discharge

N2 + O2 ------------------> 2 NO

The nitric oxide then quickly combines with oxygen in the air to form nitrogen dioxide, a brownish colored, and very toxic gas:

2 NO + O2 ---------------> 2NO2

Finally, the nitrogen dioxide then combines with water vapor in the air to form nitrous and nitric acids:

2 NO2 + H2O -------> HNO3 + HNO2

The resulting nitric and nitrous acids are responsible for corroding your copper rods and other metals in the vicinity, such as your transformer terminals and case. When the acid vapors condense on the surface of the Plexiglas, it causes the surface to become partially conductive, resulting in partial discharges, corona, and finally the electrical tracking that you observe.

You may be able to reduce or prevent these problems by changing the rod material to stainless steel, and increasing the ventilation in the chamber. You could also try operating the Jacobs ladder intermittently to allow the acid vapors to dissipate rather than building up. Finally, placing a tray containing a thin layer of a chemical base, such as calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate, may help to neutralize the acids that are formed. The tray may need to be periodically replenished if the system is used continuously.

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#10

Re: HV arching within a semi enclosed space...

01/14/2009 9:35 AM

You are also producing ozone gas which will participate in the corrosion of any metal exposed to it.

Ozone attack to metal but also the plastic components in this display.

Keep the good ventilation and send the air away from the spectators as ozone is a toxic gas.

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