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Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/27/2009 1:52 PM

Is it time to rethink the concept of cars that amount to putting a family room with all the comforts and entertainment features of home on a set of wheels? Why do we need to expend enough energy to move one or two tons of stuff around when we ourselves weigh less than 10% of that?

Why should we have any tolerance at all for such huge vehicles, or any vehicles for that matter, being able to travel in congested city and suburban areas at 20-50 miles per hour and ignore traffic controls like red lights? To save a few seconds or minutes of "valuable time" and thereby threaten the lives of everyone else? To preserve some "freedom"?

Is our only option bicycles and motorbikes without basis safety protections, weather protection, load carrying capacity and unsuitable for people who are not physically fit?

We need something in between in size if for no other reason than energy efficiency and modest cost. And we have the technology to limit speeds and discretionary illegal driving moves in congested urban areas. For electric vehicles with batteries being such a high cost smaller vehicle size will be a big advantage.

I think Tata has the right idea here. And we need to look back at Europe of 50-60 years ago at the sizes of vehicles they had then.

I'm an old hot rodder and love to put the pedal to the metal out on the open highway. But I never had any need for that in town. And neither does anyone else except maybe emergency responders. If I can live with that any one ought to be able to. And leave the living room at home, BTW.

Ed Weldon

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#1

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/27/2009 5:02 PM

I must say... Thats a nice SUV in your photo.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/27/2009 8:11 PM

Don't do as I do, do as I say!

Gotcha!

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 12:04 AM

Shoot first; ask questions later? Sorry, you missed.

It's not an SUV. It's a 2 wheel drive 2000 Toyota Tacoma 4 cylinder,automtic transmission, shortbed, standard cab pickup. It weighs 3400 pounds and gets 27 mpg on the highway and 21 mpg around town. In the picture taken off road near Mono Lake, CA, it is fitted out as a completely self contained one person camper returning from a 10 day trip in the Utah and Nevada desert. Note the canoe on top. It is 10-1/2 foot long and weighs 17 pounds. Perhaps that and the perspective of the photo lead you to think the truck was larger. I live in a rural area and normally have the canoe, sleeping bed, "kitchen", sink, water tank, roof top closet and portapotti stored so I can haul stuff which includes 3-4 1000 pound loads of stove pellets per year for the central heating of our home.

Ed Weldon

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#5
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Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 12:07 AM

Sorry,

I drive a four door PU. Big Ford. I get 17 MPG in town.

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 11:24 AM

Hey, no offence intended, Just poking a bit of fun.

I do drive an SUV, although it's a small one, Jeep Wrangler. I use the 4WD quite a bit but would definitely commute to work in something smaller & more efficient.

Sorry, did not intend to hit a nerve.

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#3

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/27/2009 9:46 PM

As far as the technical aspects go, I agree with you.

But as to this:

"If I can live with that any one ought to be able to," sorry.

Near as I can tell, no one put you here to mandate that others should live as you (or I) choose.

There are lots of other places on the planet for that. The USA was supposed to be different. That's why it got started.

The USA was the last, best hope for mankind. That hope has worn very thin since 20 January, and pronouncements like yours chip away at what's left.

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#6
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Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 1:20 AM

emc-c quoted --- "The USA was the last, best hope for mankind"

You could well have added the words "to wreck the Earth". Fortunately our people put that aside on January 20, 2009, in favor of a more practical course. And I do think we are still the last best hope notwithstanding the disciples of Ayn Rand and the lazy fools on the other side.

I'm not mandating anything. I have no aspirations toward politics, law enforcement or running a bank. I just make and test suggestions. This forum is a testing ground.

For better or for worse we live in a legal framework based on, among other principles, equal protection under the law. This unfortunately means that sometimes laws and regulations required by the presence of fools in our midst must be followed by all. That includes those of us that are responsible enough that we can be trusted in our activities, including driving, not to hurt people. Those are the ones that I worry most about because they are the cause of restraints that you and I would just as soon do without.

Ed Weldon

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 7:00 PM

"Almost wrecked the earth"????

A tad melodramatic and overwrought, no?

What exactly is wrecked, and how is the fault for it apportioned among nations?

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#9
In reply to #3

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 3:20 AM

He is not saying that we have to mandate this, but simply making social commentary. And yes America is founded on freedoms, but freedom without responsibility is careless. If you are born with more privileges that doesn't give you the right to be a jerk, it gives you the responsibility to hold yourself to a higher standard. And being born in America does give you privileges.

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#7

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 1:21 AM

If you are looking for an urban vehicle for transportation of the average family and capable of carrying a small load of groceries i would suggest to look into Buckminster Fuller, he was very enthusiastic about the concept of efficiency so much so that he designed a 3 person urban veicle which ran on a lawnmower engine.

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#8

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 1:53 AM

A couple of (40-45) years ago Honda had a very small 2-person urban car with a 360 ccm, 2-cylinder 4-stroke engine. I loved it but that time it was not affordable for me... I think something similar would be great...

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#11

Re: Lightweight Urban Vehicles and External Controls

04/28/2009 1:15 PM

I could hardly agree more.

Since the time when I first planned to enter the Progressive Automotive X Prize, my vehicle (which was first designed before the prize was announced) has changed from very small and on two wheels (yet fully enclosed) to somewhat larger, with room for two in tandem seating. It now rolls on three wheels. The X Prize metric of 100 MPGe is a pretty good one*, for this country, at least, as it allows for enough mass and size to incorporate crumple zones -- and in my case, the side crumple zones are several times as large as those in a typical small car. Running forward into a barrier, a small car can do just as well as (or better than) a large car, given enough front crumple space. However, a very small car needs several times as much side crumple space (as a typical car) to reduce accelerations to acceptable levels in a side impact (because the test sled mass is greater than that of a small car, as is the average car mass which might be causing the side impact), and tandem seating can enable such a situation.

In preparing for a test of HHO injection, I've been driving around with a Scan Gauge 2. All my driving has been local, with the longest trip being to a soccer game about 35 minutes (13.9 miles on suburban roads) away. Before the soccer trip, my average speed was 17 mph. It has now gone up to 20 mph. Obviously, I went faster than 20 mph many times (although the fastest was only 55 mph), but it is amazing how low speed ordinary suburban traffic can be. (The scan gauge averages the entire trip including stop lights, etc.) If I were on a bicycle, and if there were no stop lights (probably unnecessary if everyone were traveling on bicycles) I could travel at very close to the same average speed. (Actually, in heavier traffic, this is sometimes the case, even if the bicyclist observes stop signs, etc. I've been in city traffic where a bicyclist can end up ahead of cars over a distance of a few miles.)

(You can imagine a traffic control system for bicyclists, in which people ride in groups of 10 -- 5 wide by 2 deep. At intersections, the normal routine would be interleaving of groups one after another, with slight slowing of one or the other required only when there are conflicts. Lights well in advance of intersections would tell riders to speed up or slow down as required to permit constant interleaving without the need for stops.)

For electric vehicles with batteries being such a high cost smaller vehicle size will be a big advantage.

Again, I could hardly agree more. A small vehicle can use a smaller battery pack. Reduce range, and the battery pack can be made even smaller. Drastically reduce range (let's say to even 20 miles) and the battery pack can be affordable even in the context of a small economy car. Then, to compensate for the reduced range (which would otherwise inevitably leave people stranded far too often, i.e., when the driver decides to go out too lunch at a place a little further away than usual, or when he has to go to the doctor unexpectedly) add an onboard generator which will fire up automatically to keep the batteries charged. Almost insignificant amounts of gasoline would be used for a phenomenal increase in utility and a huge reduction in purchase price as compared to a full electric.

Sadly, we have routinely been putting in harms way and killing our own people (in addition to innocents in other countries) to secure our strategic energy interests in the Middle east. The profoundly un-American among us are happy with the status quo, and will continue to drive gas guzzlers without thought to the consequences. Fortunately, the number of people who give a hoot seems to be increasing.**

* Although I would have preferred a well-to-wheels metric which acknowledges that electricity is produced with both cost and environmental impacts. With the pump-(or plug)-to-wheels standard that will be used, my vehicle (and any plug in hybrid) is seen as about three times as efficient on electricity as it is on gasoline. This encourages gaming of the rules by entering plug-in hybrids with very long range on electricity, to keep them operating at 300 MPGe or so, instead of just over 100 mpg on gasoline. This means that the competition vehicles will have loads of expensive batteries, and be less representative of vehicle that can sell well.

** The cynical view would be, however, that the interest in using less petroleum will pass. In the early eighties, when we had made substantial gains in fuel efficiency (partly due to our experience in the gas crisis of the seventies) cars outsold trucks for ordinary passenger use 10 to one, and the fleet average fuel economy was 27 mpg. The idea of ordinary soccer moms driving 6000 lb vehicles in the future would have made us think, then, that future cars would have to be nuclear powered, or some such -- otherwise, why would anyone want to drive a land yacht when they could drive a smaller, more responsive, safer and more fun sedan or coupe. Now, by driving gas guzzlers that would have been considered impossibly large in the eighties, we have driven () our fleet average down to just over 20 mpg.

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