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Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 8:39 AM

Hey fellas!

I was watching the news this morning and saw a segment on a guy in Canada who claims to be using wind power to synthesize ammonia and then use the ammonia as a hydrogen carrier in his ordinary internal combustion powered pick up truck.

When segment first came up, I thought he was using the ammonia in an absorption cycle or some sort of organic Rankine cycle...until he gave some very vague explanation of the ammonia as a hydrogen carrier.

He claimed that it is much safer than carrying H2 in the gas phase. Which I disagree with...Ammonia gas is very toxic and H2 is buoyant and would float away, but that's another discussion.

I try to keep up with what's going on in alternative energy, but this was new to me. Frankly, I don't buy it. Have any of you heard of this? Does anyone know what he's doing? It seems feasible, but I still can't help, but wonder if this is another free-energy scheme...

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#1

Re: Ammonia as fuel?

04/28/2009 8:42 AM

Look. It ain't a free energy scam. Ammonia is combustible, and all he is doing is using it as an energy carrier for an infernal combustion engine. The bloke just ain't electric, otherwise he would do that instead. <Cough, splutter. Especially with ammonia>

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#2

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 9:18 AM

I'd have to give it some thought, and see what comes out of the pipe; but ammonia is a controlled substance like freon - no?

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#3

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 10:02 AM

"safer", hmmmm.

I was wondering what was safer, a big bang or painful asphyxiation...lol

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#4

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 10:45 AM

I'd be interested to see his ammonia synthesis train as well since commercially, the process technology is usually not a wind turbine (at least that I am aware of).

I would recommend using carbon as a hydrogen carrier instead of nitrogen.

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#5

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 10:54 AM

I dunno, when it come to chemistry, ammonia beginner...<groan>
Del

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#6
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 2:17 PM

Just couldn't stop yourself, could you. Baad Kitty!

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#7
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 2:25 PM

Wow I totally missed it!

except for the whizzing sound as it went over my head

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#15
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 10:03 AM

I voted you another off topic, out of respect for your punmanship. I will refrain from further comment, because the idea of burning ammonia gets me all fired up, and I really don't want to start some flame war.

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#16
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 10:10 AM

I think my record for off topicness is about 11
Del
(Fired up, flame war.... hmmmm)

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#8

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 11:15 PM

I am interested in how he uses wind power to "synthesize" ammonia (as in making it from Nitrogen and Hydrogen?) Fertilizer grade anhyhdrous ammonia (NH3) will burn, but do you want a combination of water and nitrogen oxides (various acids, depending on the particular nitrogen oxide) eating up the inside of your engine and exhaust system? Or did he realize that the H-N bond takes less energy to break than the H-O bond and do a catalytic splitting to get the H2 for combustion? At least he would not have those oxides of Nitrogen to worry about. The gas that escapes, either NH3 or H2 would rapidly dissipate due to the light weight of the molecule: 2 for Hydrogen, 17 for ammonia, compared to 32 for Oxygen or 28 for Nitrogen (diatomic molecules) My own personal preference is 130 proof ethanol for the hydrogen carrier to avoid the flammablity and pressure issues, and either split the hydrogen off the carbon catalytically or go with a direct ethanol fuel cell.

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#9

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/28/2009 11:44 PM

Does the "guy" has a site?

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#17
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 10:29 AM

My guess is that this might be the site... although the 509 area code is in Washington state, not Canada. But this is an industry association, and the guy would seem likely to be a member.

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#22
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 9:06 PM

Thanks i will check it out

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#24
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

05/01/2009 8:03 AM

Good Link, Blink.

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#10

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 12:34 AM

try " ammonia power engine", some irrigation punps are run there in NH3.......

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#11

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 8:17 AM

If what you saw is true, this guy could be a Billionaire tomorrow! To simply use wind power to synthesize ammonia is thermodynamically impossible. The last figure I saw was a world manufacturing capacity of > 307 billion pounds of ammonia annually. The Fritz-Haber parent is just 100 years old, and the ammonia synthesis was initiated by the Germans when their nitrate-based ammunition and explosives were running out in the war. The world's greatest source of nitrates was in Chile, and the Germans sent a task force to acquire nitrates for the war. Otherwise, the German Army and Navy would have been forced to throwing rocks at the British and French. Adm. von Spee met a small British naval force near the Faulkland Is on the way to Chile, and defeated them. A few ships escaped, and managed to get the info to London, such that when the German fleet returned, a major British fleet was waiting, end of von Spee and German nitrates. Fritz Haber then found a way to produce ammonia from nitrogen and hydrogen, which involves special catalysts, high temperature and high pressures. The Rx process across the catalyst bed only converts ~ 15 % of the hydrogen into ammonia at 350 - 500 C and 4,000 psi. The ammonia was then oxidized to nitrates and thus to explosives. If someone can use wind power to accomplish that, BUY STOCK NOW!!!

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#12
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 8:23 AM

Good points Cardio, ga.

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#13

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 9:25 AM

DAG, I have not seen the piece, but carry H2 is perfectly safe until you introduce an oxidizer. hydrogen is an energy carrier and will not burn by itself. If any find the source of the ammonia segment, I would be interested. We are working with aluminum to split water as an alternate renewable source of clean energy. Efficiencies are not quite there, but costs are for many parts of the world. Good luck, Joe

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#14

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 9:30 AM

I remember looking into alternate phase change materials back in the day because it is so hard to get A/C systems that will keep a vehicle cool in Phoenix, and remembered my childhood with Servel ammonia cycle refrigerators; but upon examination ammonia was less efficient and was/is controlled under the same rules in the US as Freon.

But I never knew it was flammable?

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#18

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 10:35 AM

For those skeptics, using wind power for ammonia production is not as far fetched as some think. Check out these articals.

Ammonia From Wind Power I – The University of Minnesota - West Central Research and Outreach Center is configuring a system to convert wind energy into ammonia. The approach uses the wind power to drive a water electrolysis system to produce hydrogen and an air separations unit to take nitrogen from air. The hydrogen and nitrogen will then be combined in an advanced catalytic reactor developed at the university. The goal of the project is to produce ammonia, either for fertilizer or fuel, which is cost competitive with fossil-fuel derived ammonia fertilizer or fuel. (Contact: Mike Reese, University of Minnesota - West Central Research and Outreach Center, 320-589-1711, reesem@morris.umn.edu)

Ammonia from Wind Power II – This project, called Freedom Fertilizer, is based in northwest Iowa and focuses on "stranded wind" as the source of power to drive the ammonia synthesis process. Again, the goal is to produce cost-competitive ammonia to serve local Iowa communities when it is not feasible, or there is no connection, for selling the wind power to the grid. This approach will help provide energy and cost independence for Iowa communities who have had no choice recently but to buy expensive imported ammonia produced with natural gas. (Contact: Steve Gruhn, Freedom Fertilizer LLC, 720-320-3114, sgruhn@freedomfertilizer.com)

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#19

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 10:39 AM

Ammonia will burn but the flammability or explosive limits are narrow. Unlike H2, and methane, the oxygen available in air will make combustion it difficult. I suspect he had to do special O2 adjustments for the narrow range in an IC engine. There are reports of a film clip of an ammonia "flammable envelope" atmosphere of air and ammonia, the flame will travel up but not down from a burning match.

In some gold smelters use ammonia (NH3) as the fuel. It prevents the use of carbon in methane (CH4) that will affect quality of the gold produced. I think there are other processes that use ammonia as a fuel.

I suspect the inventor meant that natural gas (CH4) is carrying Hydrogen that ends up as H2O and CO2, where ammonia (NH3) ends up as H2O, N2, NOx. I am not sure (if you believe CO2 is bad) that NOx is a better alternative!

The typical process to make ammonia involves heating air and methane over special (copper?) catalysis. Very high pressures and temperatures.

There are processes that make small amounts in a controlled "spark" with atmospheric ammonia, I did not it was enough to collect and separate.

I also suspect he may be using a natural decay or biological method of fixing ammonia perhaps via urea or other nitrogen compounds then taking the NH3 from that.

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#20

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 2:50 PM

Thanks for the commments guys. I'm checking the news website to see if I can find the segment. I'll post the link if I can find it.

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#21

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/29/2009 3:03 PM

I have emailed the reporter who covered the story to see if she had a link. The news page is very difficult to navigate...

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#23

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

04/30/2009 3:54 PM

the conversion of electricity to NH3 is less than 40% efficient, why would you want to waste 50% of an already expensive energy source? Just charge a battery and get going.

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#25

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

05/01/2009 8:05 AM

Still No reply from the news reporter.

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#26

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

05/06/2009 10:39 AM

Greetings.

Where do you get ammonia in quantities in Washington State.

Anyone using ammonia for residential or commercial heating?

What are the precautions?

How is it delivered?

How is it stored?

What kind of a burner or jet does it use?

Has anyone used it to burn in a boiler?

Okay now who has all these answers?

Have one boiler, time, imagination and a pile of junque.

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#27
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

05/06/2009 11:25 AM

Any farm will know the chemical supplier in the area that you can buy ammonia from in bulk. Farmers usually knife it into the ground as a nitrogen provider, I believe. Just because they use it doesn't make it safe though.

No one that I know would use ammonia for residential or commercial heating, mostly because it is extremely hazardous and usually made from natural gas which could be burned for heat in the first place. If NG isn't piped to the residence, use propane tanks.

At the plant I worked at, ammonia for the SCR (it was only 28% I think) required proper PPE up to and including a respirator for handling trucking or working within the tank boundaries. I think having more than 10k pounds on-site requires your facility to conform to PSM standards.

Trucks or rail cars are probably the delivery mechanisms I would guess.

Stored as a liquid in tanks.

It doesn't use a burner, nobody that I know of burns this stuff.

Never used it in a boiler myself, it is possible that some people burn it as a waste in an incinerator but I'm not aware of anyone.

Most ammonia is made in other countries now because of the price of natural gas in the US (I think). There are some plants still around making it locally, but not nearly as many as there used to be. I have to say, I think burning ammonia is a less than good idea.

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#28
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Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

05/10/2009 2:55 PM

Greetings.

Hey great answers. Thanks. You get an A plus.

If you hear of anyone using this please let me know. It is always interesting what other people know.

Have a great day.

Oly

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#29

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

06/04/2009 7:08 PM

you can get ammonia from welding suppliers. Ammonia nitrait is regulated because it has an oxidizer in it.

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#30

Re: Ammonia as Fuel?

06/06/2009 12:02 AM

We have farmers locally that use NH3 on their fields and I can tell you honestly there is no point in trying to buy it to burn! It's rather expensive stuff! Plus if you ever worked with it you would know is some what corrosive too! Take a look at a used NH3 applicator rig. Everything that not stainless steel or plastic is corroded and rotten. Why would you want to run an expensive, hard to ignite, some what corrosive, and highly toxic vapor fuel in your vehicle?

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