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Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/27/2009 10:44 AM

With the upcoming world Copenhagen 2009 as per http://www.erantis.com/index.htm, the emphasis on control, disposal and uses for Carbon Dioxide will be perhaps be THE highest priority area of commitment throughout the world . . . so lets discuss it:

Here are a few topics:

Ocean Sequestration

Biological Technology for Disposal and Conversion

Sabatier and Bosch Reactor Technology

Looking for comments and interests.

George

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#1

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/27/2009 11:18 PM

The best form of carbon sequestration bar none is plant life.

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#2

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 2:27 AM

DVader hits it right. When one looks at the investments being poured into most of the schemes (none of which has so far proven to be feasible), one has to question the sanity of the powers that be. One could build a lot of nuclear power plants with this money (have a look at the mini-nuclear that Toshiba is planning to build in Alaska), and plant a whole lot of trees. Trying to capture and sequester carbon dioxide has the appearance of an Emron style scam...

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#3

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 3:23 AM

Take a look at http://ecochem.co.za/carbochem.pdf for my views - welding Plastic together into insoluble blocks with and sg over 1.2 would in effect put the fossil fuels back into a form which is similar in chemistry to coal and would tie up carbon and hydrogen (+ a little oxygen) and neutralise them at minimum cost.

So if you cannot recycle the plastic, this is an effective way of capturing the carbon.

As a matter of interest, could plastic materials not be mixed with aggregate instead of tar and so be used in road fill for hot application?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 5:34 AM

If the plastic materials can provide the required structural strength and will not melt down on a hot day, then that might be possible.

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#5
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 7:19 AM

They might be a problem for surfacing but I would think that the foundation layers could at least accept some.

In the foundry business (shell moulding) a thermoplast is mixed with sand and does a good job. Sand/resin mix is balanced to give break out properties.

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#6

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 7:33 AM

I personally think that using the CO2 is the answer, converting it into something useful certainly makes more sense, making it a resource rather than a waste that is expensive or detrimental. Planting of large forests, is perhaps the answer to part of the problem. Creating a renewable resource which has applications for the future. Over the long haul, forestation is net energy positive . . . Mother Nature is certainly an energy conservative engineer.

Use of recycled plastics as mixtures for road construction, does also appear to be viable . . . has anyone seen this done? What are the pit falls and the challenges?

Clearly, stopping production is part of the answer . . . an me personally . . . nuclear power is in that formula.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the Sabatier Reactor that is being developed by NASA?

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#7
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 8:24 AM

Having produced the CO2 the answer is how to lock it up again. First if we do not stop the use of fossil fuels as fuels and so making CO2 the future is not good. Using the green route we can get CO2 out of the air but if we use it as a fuel we are going around in circle. We need to bank the carbon in a form that is neutral but we do not want to lock up the oxygen. Plastics are essentially hydrocarbons so they perform an ideal way of getting it out of the system - providing this can be done harmlessly - not down the throats of males or left to float about in the sea. Actually tyres with a high carbon content and with a natural rubber content are also prime candidates. The natural rubber uses up atmospheric CO2. I have heard that they can form excellent artificial reefs if sunk and anchored in the right places and this sound like a way of killing two birds with one stone.

Granulated they could also be used as road fill but this would require energy. Fusing un-recyclable plastics en mass into road fill or into artificial wood also removes it from the cycle.

In the meantime as long as fossil fuels remain an energy source we are going around in ever-decreasing circles. Nuclear could be the lesser of two evils. I have faith that someone is eventually going to find a way of using the energy in spent fuels other than in weapons. Maybe we should put things like NASA on hold until this one is sorted.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 8:55 AM

Tha last paragraph of one of the answers suggested the use of nuclear power plants to reduce the CO2 production. This comment left the problem regarding the spent rods. The spent fuel rods could be reprocessed, at high cost in France.

Regarding the use of spent nuclear fuels however, there is another solution. The used rods can be thorium coated and reused, reducing most of it to ash that is of half the life of the original rods. In addition tha resulting ash, is non proliferating for use in hydrogen bombs. Reactors can also be built using thorium alone for non-proliferating nuclear power plants, and a pilot plant exists now for years, using this process.

See Thorium Power for more details.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 9:39 AM

The disposal of spent fuel is not a technological problem . . . it is a political problem. Part of the "Atoms for Peace Program" from the Einsehower administration years was that "No Military Atomic Material" would ever be used for Non-military applications and vice versa "No Commercial Material" would ever be used for Military.

General Electric built but was never allowed to operate a fuel reprocessing plant near Morris, Illinois. The plant was never operated due to government regulations.

Military reactors, submarine & surface craft, have been being reprocessed for many years.

Commercial reactor design is based on low enriched fuels, 5 to 8 percent. Military reactors more than 90% enriched.

In both cases, at end of core life, once the reactor is no longer capable of producing "battle power" (in the case of military) or 100% designed power (as in the case of commercial) the core is either entirely replaced (military) or refueled. Refueling in commercial power is a process much like musical chairs . . . center core fuel elements are moved to the outer ring areas and new fuel elements in the center. This is a basic, very simplified description. Only a very small number of fuel elements in a commercial reactor are removed from the reactor and stored. Total fuel waste generated by a commericial power plant is only a few tons each year. Thus, the capability to store on-site, since such a small quanity is actually produced.

Even when removed, typically more than 90% of the U235 remains in a "spent fuel" element. Recovery of that useable fuel makes perfect sense.

Additionally, as in breeder reactors, plutonium is produced in all reactors. Thus prior to refueling of a commerical reactor, all commerical reactors, as much as 10% of the thermal power generated by the reactor is from fission of plutonium.

Keep in mind that to make plutonimum the process is basically the neutron irradiation of uranimum . . . so there in is "reprocessing" of uranium fuels via the Purex Chemical Process. Plutonimum is the source of power in a breeder reactor.

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#12
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 10:17 AM

The why are we making the oil producers rich?

Let us get on with it - the use of fossil fuels is stupid!

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#21
In reply to #6

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/13/2009 11:19 PM

evidently you don't understand thermo. CO2 has one of the lowest energy styates, therefore to use it requires input of energy, ie making more CO2.

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#8

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 8:38 AM

The best solution that I have read about, is to feed it into algae based reactors for disposal. The algae is then pressed for its' biodiesel fuel, the remains are then used for ethanol production after which, the solids then used for feedstock. The output as a result of algae production is many times that, per acre, of corn, and even sugar ethanol production, and can continue through the winter climes as well, with proper insulation.

There is a company called Green Star Products Inc., that has used the CO2 output from a Utility generator to perform this process and has other 100 and 1000 acre reactors in the works or on the drawig board.

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#13
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 10:20 AM

Great to stop the use of fossils but this would keep the carbon circulating - it is necesarry to capture the carbon and reduce the total CO2 in the current system!

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#14
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 11:19 AM

Regarding the total CO2, the earth generally uses it for trees, plant life and large amounts are absorbed by the ocean.

The object is to maintain the natural balance, which is done through the reprocessing of the gas by algae. Therefore, should the reduction of this gas, as proposed, exceed this balance it may ultimately result in reduction of our food supply,by continued sequestration and thus, be harmful.

This balance has been maintained though the years despite the larger amounts of CO2 produced by termites, wood rot, natural fires, cattle, and most other types of decay. The object is to reduce the effects of fossil fuels that would otherwise remain unused beneath the earths' surface, so as to maintain more of the natural balance.

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#10

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/28/2009 9:12 AM

Here is a link concerning the NASA Sabatier Reactor . . . this thing works . . . at least in the laboratory and it is exothermic!!! The catalysts being studied include ruthenium, iron, and iron. One quote is to the effect that the C4 (graphite) produced only needs to be scrapped or cleaned from the inside of an iron pipe where it is ultimately deposited. Temperatures of the reaction range from 300 to 700 degrees C.

http://www.isso.uh.edu/publications/A9900/pdf/rich84.pdf

The released hydrogen would then be recycled back into the Sabatier reactor, leaving an easily removed deposit of pyrolytic graphite. The reactor would be little more than a steel pipe, and could be periodically serviced by an astronaut where the deposit is chiselled out. Quoted from Wikipedia, link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

Reference also the Bosch Reaction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosch_reaction

Is this the answer? Why can not such a process be scaled to size to use the exhaust of a fossil power plant?

George

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#15

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/30/2009 7:16 AM

The question is WHY? CO2 makes up <0.04% of the atmosphere. This is <3% of the greenhouse substances. The prevalent greenhouse substance is water vapour, yes, god ole H2O. So why do we pick on poor old element 6?

If someone can explain how a greenhouse substance that occupies 13333ppm of the atmosphere ca be usurped by a gas that occupies <400ppm, I would be grateful.

Hey, both gasses contain an oxygen molecule, there should we not blame Number 8?

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#16
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

09/30/2009 10:31 AM

Totally 100%, bottom of my heart, engineering judgment agree, common sense say yes you are right, I do not like the situation, I do not want to do anything about it . . . but now . . . we got "POLITICIAN"!!! LOL He does not want to understand, he will not understand, he make good living off you and me, he like public attention, he love Chicken Little, he want your dollar to spend at his home . . . so there it is. I think I join the politician, lol

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#17
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/01/2009 1:43 AM

Let's hope the Senate does its job and knocks it back. Write to your senator and give him the facts.

The biggest problem in Aussie bullsh1tango (sorry, politics) is the Greens, The ALP and some of the liberals want this tax and always respond with the mantra "the science is settled" or "we have to do this, just in case". They shut down any attempt at debate on the subject.

Fortunately, many people are starting to speak out and getting themselves educated as to how mush it is going to cost us in extra charges etc. Talkbak radio tells of this extra impost and also tells the facts re AGW. Professor Plimer, who does many talks to the public around Australia is also seeing a turn for the better. There is even an embrionic political Party, The Climate Change Skeptics who will, if successful, in conjunction with the Nationals, the No Pokies and the Family First parties hold the balance of power in the Senate. There is hope.

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#18
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/01/2009 2:29 AM

Problem is a simply lack of understanding or the lack of a wish to understand it.

Global warming is caused by converting fossil fuels into CO2 and Water in the combustion process. The balance is now upset - we need to take the carbon in the air and put it back where it came from. We also need to find energy sources that do not use fossil fuels. Best way to do that is to make it into something which is essentially carbon (ie Plastics) and bury it. If we can fuse unrecyclable plastic waste into blocks we can put it away then it will do no harm.

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#19
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/01/2009 2:52 AM

Will this imbalance cause the current and forthcoming cooling? Gee, and I thought it had to do with the sun's activity and the solar minimum were are now entering.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/16/2009 2:52 AM

Take the time to read (study) http://jimball.com.au/Warming.htm

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#20

Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

10/13/2009 11:18 PM

don't worry CO2 sequestration will not happen by mans hand.

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#23
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Re: Carbon Dioxide Disposal/Sequestration/Conversion

11/07/2009 2:11 AM

Governments and the IPCC are NOT interested in the weather one iota, they are promoting a one world government which is what you'll have if you ratify the Copenhagen Treaty that Obama will sign next month. Gore, like his father, supports totalitarianism. It'll make him even richer. Look up Lord Monkton's American speech on U Tube.

CO2 is NOT a pollutant. A pollutant is something that is harmful to humans and the environment. Without CO2, we die, as does almost every living thing on the planet.

So why try to hide it? Actually, we would benefit, like greenhouses do, by increases in CO2. Plants, trees, food crops et cetera will grow better.

CO2 makes up less than 4% of the so-called greenhouse gases. Water vapour (dihydrogen monoxide) makes up 96%. Nitrous Oxide (NO2) is also a greenhouse gas, as is CO methane etc. There is no carbon in water or NO2. Maybe Hydrogen and Oxygen are the culprits instead.

Science has moved on, CO2 IS NOT THE PROBLEM. Even if you doubled the CO2 concentration to 800 ppm, the global temperature will rise by 0.5 to 0.75 degrees. Wake up America. you'll lose your freedoms as well as your sovereignty.
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