A307B Bolts in 10" Hydrocarbon Marine Transfer Flange

I am away from my standards library, but from the 'net:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/A307.htm

1.5 Supplementary Requirement S1 of an optional nature is provided, which describes additional restrictions to be applied when bolts are to be welded. It shall apply only when specified in the inquiry, order, and contract.

so it appears they are weldable,

on the other hand, in the past, I have driven after drinking numerous times and gotten away with it - however, if there was ONE TIME I got in an accident ............

I agree with you that there should be some concern and that more investigating needs to be done, it may come back that you are alright - but the question is there.

Yes, they are weldable. They are just everyday bolts with heavy heads and nuts designed for use with cast iron flanges. This is a 10" raised face 150# flange and a 10" heavy flexible hose being held up by a crane from petroleum barges. This pipeline has to be in compliance with B31.4 to comply with NFPA30 as well. The transfer hose is tested to 250# annually and I haven't a clue as to testing on our pipeline. Plant operators have told me how many barrels an hour on average we're pumping and I don't want to think about it right now at the same time I'm thinking about these bolts. I'm thinking that even if it was water we (a global multibillion dollar oil company) were pumping, for the small difference in the price of bolts and no lost time or negligible cost to change them out.... Still uneasy in NY

Is this going to aviod the likelyhood of employees injuring themselves at work???

Many years ago rods were welded to the bolts and it was hailed as an advancement in time saving and ergonomics (it is!) It apparently spread to other terminals as well and is accepted practice now and everybody does it (so it has to be okay!) You are leaning in over a large containment pan with gasoline in it making or breaking the flange connections with regular tools (we have been told non-sparking tools are not required) and the plant operators that do this do not want to have to use two wrenches again. I'm in over my head here politically and not wielding a PE license should give it up. We meet A307B specs and B16.5?! Damn good team here. Thank you sir!

Well, since this is about making things convenient for the operators, how about the following:

Capture all of the bolt heads (slip a universal ring over the lot or, weld retainers from one head to another) and then use a pneumatic torque wrench (not an impact gun!) to turn the nuts.This eliminates having to lean over the pan and individually hold each bolt by the present rods.

Fast, safe and easy.

<biggrin> If it was up to me we would be begging and paying for your advice HeviiGuy! The operators just reach in and put the nuts on and "torque" them with a regular 1/2" SK ratchet. The rods welded on the bolt heads work great. Came across this tidbit in the forum and seems analogous: Safety Factor 07/30/2009 2:42 PM Hi, What is the criteria for safety factors for pipe design in absence of codes or standards. Thanks Re: Safety Factor 07/30/2009 11:31 PM The main criterion is: Keep your pets and loved ones far,far away from any such installation ... __________________ Best regards, HeviiGuy .... (www.heviitech.com) I'm LOL and thank you for the laugh! I'm sure the original design of everything was to B31.4 and all the fire stuff to NFPA-30 but now we have men in charge who are business men and accountants. The originally specified bolts are long gone or all have steel rods welded to them obscuring any identification marks. We have just been told they are "soft iron" bolts so it is okay. Just made me think, should look in the other flanges... I'm going to guess (not being a PE its ok right?!) A193 B7

The plausible assumption would be that yes, these are B7 bolts.

Mr Guest, the darkness that you've encountered there on that particular NY wharf is a veritable ray of sunshine if you compare it to what you'll see in your upstream (literally) facilities. Potential Joint Failure of these 10", Class 250 flanges is mere poppycock relative to what can (and does) happen when the big nasty flanges fail. Unfortunately, the mindset that you are presently and frustratingly witness to is often the same embodied by those who are responsible for the safety and integrity of the really critical joints (they're not going to weld rods onto their bolt heads but, there are other silly things that they'll feel quite comfortable in doing). As a result, often the best thing keeping such flanges together is only a copious slathering of hope and prayers.

Pandora's box awaits...

<biggrin> So I got to thinking, (go ahead, laugh! "Simple things amuse simple minds" my father would say as he looked at me funny.) If only there was a simple way of showing the difference between a grade 2 A307B and a somewhere between 5 and closer to 8-ish I think B7... The great physicist Richard Feynman showing what happens to a shuttle gasket o-ring after being immersed in a glass of ice water on the table in front of him pops into my simple brain...damn that was simple and cool.... Eureka! I get a 1/2" A307B and a 1/2" B7 and using my 18" Craftsman ratchet and a wrench tighten it to failure and grunt and groan and fail to break the B7 and or adjust the bolt size up or down and or the weapons of destruction! Off to Fastenal with a spring in my step I went! LOL What do you have in A307B? "I'm sorry sir, we would have to special order grade 2 fasteners, we pretty much start around grade 5 in stock..." Well you see I wanted to show someone what we were using to connect a 10" gasoline barge transfer hose to our dock manifold flange... "you're joking right?!" Oh no. "Well sir, we run into this kind of thing pretty often. I really don't think you want those bolts..."

"but now we have men in charge who are business men and accountants". OK let's think for a minute on that statement.....times up! Done.

Bolts over time tend to stretch and lose their elastic properties, they will fatigue. The reuse of bolts should be restricted to a maximum of 5 uses if they are within 80% of their load factor. Three times if within 100%. Welding on the nuts could deform the thread at the point of welding as it would super heat the area and then shrink to less than that of the original size. The threads would then have a hill on them causing some binding and wear down the bolt in that area. (head hurting me now)

Light bulb here!! I see war ships transferring fuel, from one to the other, at sea doing 20 knots and not spilling a drop. (on TV) How about a QUICK connector, be it threaded, cam-lock or any other type? Maybe one that has an automatic cut off when its not mated correctly, like they use in the auto race industry. The connection/dis would take seconds, be safer and.......you could bring your cat and kids to watch.

Hi Mayt2u, you are absolutely correct, there is an industry standard quick connect dry break that is commonly used. I wouldn't be surprised that many of the barges that come to our terminal were loaded that way. IF we were up to code, IF bolt torque was an ongoing concern, IF bolt replacement was an ongoing expense and IF anyone other than myself gave a damn perhaps the money numbers and safety factor would turn the tide. It should be this hard to deviate from the original design, not this hard and frustrating to make it "right." Somehow I just do not believe an engineer would have grade 2 bolts in any size or pressure hydrocarbon flange. Trying to picture a shiny new dry break fitting bolted to the flange with shiny new grade 2 bolts... Arrrgggghh! Finally got to read some B31 code and have lost whatever respect I may have had for management at our terminal. One would think it required reading and necessary knowledge to operate and maintain a terminal.... shifting gears...Time to stop thinking about work and give thanks for all we have! Happy Thanksgiving All!