Previous in Forum: Rubber Compound Color Uniformity   Next in Forum: Too Big a Welder
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3

Mini Blast Furnances

02/24/2010 5:38 AM

I'm currently writing a diploma at State Technological University Moscow State Institute of Steel and Alloys on "Expediency of MBF usage on Russian mini-mills". Since, there is practically no information on this subject (since I'm the first one to write on MBFs in Russia), and in particular on the following aspects: Scrap usage or any secondary material usage in MBF, pulverized coal injection (problems, injection system etc.), Im kindly asking you to share any kind of information on this subject, links or any kind of books that are related to MBF specific design features. I will send you a copy of my diploma once I'm done with it, with your name mentioned in the foreword :-) Sincerely Alex Ershoff

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: Mini blast furnace
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#1

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/24/2010 5:53 AM

I assume you've done a Google search?

(And I'm not looking for a credit for that! ).

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/24/2010 6:37 AM

yes))) trust me, I've done a google search) not much there.

Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#3

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/24/2010 9:32 AM

At the risk of proving robert heinlein right, (experts will tell you why it can't be done) I would like to clarify the advantages of minimills and blast furnaces. and then ask you why you think that, metaphorically speaking, putting iron boots (blast furnace) on your racer (electric furnace) will help it win the race.

Minimll's chief advantage are low cost production of steel using recycled materials. These shops are in line processes, and require a minimum of infrastructure, transport, labor, and inventory on hand. They are flexible, can be stopped and started rather agilely, and require a minimum of infrastructure for support.

Blast furnaces require large quantities of raw materials, thus large investments in infrastructure, bulk transport, and labor.They cannot be easily throttled, and so must run continuously, and their product taken upon production. If you are proposing casting into pigs, you are giving up (waste) a lot of heat. If you are proposing a liquid metal connection, you are requiring a lot more capital and labor and tying your entire works to 24/7 365 production.

Economies of scale are taught in Economics, and the hybridization that you propose, in the absence of some local absolute advantage like High iron content ore at the site, and free coke, etc, will be cost disadvantaged by lack of scale. Just looking at lab analytical costs, the smaller batch size will mean that lab costs for analysis per ton will be higher than for a regular scale BF shop. Same for amortizing costs of stockyard (Land to hold all your raw materials), stockhouse, trestle, etc. etc.

The problem with coal injection is typically high sulfur pick up in the iron. Adding scrap to the burden typically results in decreased refractory life, plus can drive the residual chemistry out of control. Why do you think that adding scrap to the blast furnace will be cheaper than melting it directly in the EF? And if not, why do you want to do this?

Environmental protection costs- I won't even begin to broach that subject.

An advantage of having blast furnace iron available is the ability to dilute residual elements in the minimill electric furnace allowing the EF to run cheaper grades of scrap. But if you are adding the same high residual scrap in the Blast furnace, whats the point except a bit better dilution? What is your proposed burden regime?

If you are proposing a hot connection for blast furnace to electric furnace, you have just increased costs once again, and now will require 24 hour production at the electric furnace and caster... that means more crews and more expense for steel making, and expensive transport from blast furnace to electric furnace. Will you hold hot metal in mixers? Cost cost cost.

It will take a lot of cheap scrap savings to pay for the miniblast furnace.How much do you think you will save on scrap by being able to buy the cheapest grades because you will dilute residuals using iron? how does that compare to operating cost (not even capital cost!) of the mini blast furnace?

In an integrated works, the advantage of having a blast furnace with a sinter plant was the ability to recycle process metallic losses- scale- through beneficiation as sinter. This adds yet another huge cost to the proposal if undertaken, and it is doubtful that the minimill will produce sufficicient scale to make sinter production worth while.

I would ask you to to dollarize the proposed Benefits of having the blast furnace iron available, and then see how much of the needed investment that savings would cover. Figure then on 70% usage, as with the Chinese and everyone else in the world trying to dump steel in everyone else's market, you willprobably not ever get to 80% operating rate.

Much cheaper to buy DRI or other iron units from elsewhere where they have both absolute and comparative advantage, low cost natural gas, and economies of scale.

Your project just seems to be high cost- unless you have local advantages that make a compelling case like free coke, free labor, free iron ore, existing sinterplant and infrastruture etc. If you look at variability of steel market pricing and demand you will see the cost problem immediately.

You are looking at this as a technical problem, which is well and good, but the real problem is economics at both macro and micro level. Not Engineering.

My 2 cents. I have spent my lifetime in the steel industry and manufacturing. from sinter plant/ blast furnace labor to bar mill manager to pipemill lab manager and director of quality and technology for major integrated steel company here in the US.

It's costs, not technology.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Participant

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/24/2010 10:14 AM

Thank you! I'm now beginning to look at this problem from a different angle. It was the technology that I was more interested in. But, after you actually clarified some of the economical issues, I will consider "looking" at some of the DRI units.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/25/2010 2:52 AM

Milo -- Your answer is an interesting read for one like me, a mechanical engineer with a general interest in materials technology and production methods. Steel making holds a certain fascination for me since my hobby interests include model trains, one remote corner of which is steel mill modeling. (no models built yet; but a few model kits await my attention)

From my necessarily simplistic viewpoint I'd like to pose a question that I think is related to the discussion here. An iron melting cupola operates at a somewhat lower temperature than a blast furnace. My assumption here is that higher temperatures are needed for the reduction of iron ores which are primarily oxides than for the simple melting of steel itself that goes into the charge for most foundry cupolas.

Another observation I've made is that cupolas can be built to produce molten iron for casting in the range of one or two tons per hour and even less if you consider some of the "hobby" level devices that occasionally get descibed within the North American blacksmith subculture.

My question here is what is it about the blast furnace that is so different from the cupola other than that the air being blown in is heated first in the line of hot stoves? And is the few hundred degrees hotter temperatures in the blast furnace so much more demanding of the design, construction anhd operating protocols that the basic idea of a cupola cannot be extended from iron melting to actual iron reduction?

Another logical question is whether a fresh look at the design of a blast furnace from the materials standpoint might produce some practical approach to the MBF concept the OP is investigating?

Perhaps these are questions that Zeitgeist's faculty advisors might pose to a student. But I am curious myself now that the question is on our table (small as it may be).

BTW I have a 1951 reference book in my library "The Making, Shaping and Heat Treating of Steel" that I have not gotten very deep into. It has section describing the blast furnace operation a study of which might answer my question. But the book's mention of cupolas consists of two short paragraphs which make no attempt to compare the two technologies.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Mini blast furnaces

02/25/2010 9:53 AM

Hi Ed, The cupola you describe merely melts the already existing iron metal, eh?

There is no chemical reaction, purely physical transformation from metallic solid to metallic liquid through high temperature reaching the liquidus.

Blast furnace takes iron ore (OXIDE) and while you see the hot air going in as air, the chemist sees it as converting the coke (Carbon) which is supporting the burden into carbon monoxide, which at temperature, rips the oxygen off the iron atom (chemical reduction) chemically releasing co2 and pure Iron.

Blast furnace is a chemical reactor, cupola is a mere melter.

Since his minimill already has an electric furnace, if he has iron metal solids he can just charge those into the electric furnace to melt, being aware of the carbon and sulfur factor.

The Blast furnace is a finely tuned chemical plant, where partial combustion of coke supplies both heat and reactants and physical support for other materials, Limestone provides a flux means of separating iron once released from impurities, and the hot blast of air ( contains Oxygen)also provides both heat through support of partial combustion of the coke, and reactant in its combination with the carbon in coke to make CO, the reducing agent.

The equations are in Making and shaping.

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/10/2010 10:27 PM

The art of steel making and founding was part of my youth.

I remember a lot of steel information in my history classes, especially PA history in 8th grade.

This, along with coal, was so interesting and local history and what a city or area manufactured years ago has become such an interest as I traveled.

I also have been collecting late 1800 and 1900 engineering books to relax with after a hard assignment.

Thanks for those memories.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/10/2010 11:16 PM

qaqcpipeman -- Yahoo! sponsors a number of forums known as Yahoo Groups. At the bottom of the Yahoo! home page there is a table of "More Yahoo! Sites". 5th line down on the far left side is "Groups". Click on that and the Yahoo groups page comes up. In the middle of the page at the top is "Find a Yahoo! Group". Enter the word "Steel" and click "Search". The third result down the page is a group with the name "Steel". Click on that word and the Steel Group web page opens up.

This Forum is absolutely full of information you'll be interested in. The forum membership has a significant component of model railroaders who focus on steel mill modeling. But there are as many or more hobby historians (and a few very serious ones , too) as well as steel industry veterans in the group who focus on the preservation of the history of the industry. Photo resource links in the forum archives are immense. You'll chew up an entire evening and barely scratch the surface.

Have fun with it.

Milo -- You too should check this forum out. Doesn't touch much on the metallurgy and materails applicatio0ns. Primarily on the industry and some first hand commentary on the manufacturing processes.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/11/2010 8:20 AM

Thanks Ed. I'll check it out. When I was a kid they had a show on the radio in Youngstown called tales of the mahoning valley. It was all about the build up of the steel industry in Ohio, which was Very much like the Silicon Valley boom today.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/11/2010 7:02 PM

Thanks Ed, I will check it out.

I used to own one and post to several inspection groups on Yahoo, but interest starting lagging severely in all but one, and I am not much for the social networks, so I kinda miss the fun there.

Of course, CR4 does rock with the best.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/11/2010 7:25 PM

Wow Ed, the moderators want way to much info, reminds me of the privacy issues with facebook and myspace.

Not really sure they need this info to cut down on spammers.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/11/2010 8:11 PM

qaqcpipeman -- Don't let the info requirements turn you off. There is no real privacy concerns here. I think Jim Torgeson, the list owner, just wants to make sure the people joining are legitimate and not disguised troublemakers. Jim runs a fairly tight ship there. Realize that many of the group members are Steel Mill veterans and have strong opinions. (My nearest experience with their world is a one year work experience as plant engineer in a 70ton/day iron foundry.) Jim somewhat reminds me of the kind of guy who would be a leadman in a blast furnace crew. A measurable but low tolerance for BS combined with a lot of wisdom and practical common sense.

I like this group. They are good people. You don't have to actively participate in the discussions. Torgeson doesn't allow them to drift off topic or turn into excessive rants. This could easily happen since the steel industry has a lot of unpleasant history even to this day.

There is a constant flow of interesting information freely available for consumption. But you will want to be a member to get access to the photo section and even ask questions. Don't let the privacy thing prevent you from accessing a wonderful resource. And do look into steel mill modelling in HO or N scale. It's a fascinating subset of this little subculture.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 761
Good Answers: 9
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Mini blast furnaces

04/11/2010 8:44 PM

I entered the group without all of my privacy concerns being posted, with the moderator approval.

If they are all old mill hunkies, I can get along with them very well, growing up in and working in the business from laborer to consultant.

I checked out some of the pix and will do more. I have access to a couple of thousand old pix from USS Tubular that I might scan and post some day, when I get time.

I used to be involved in some HO stuff and did some of my own buildings.

I have a grandson who shows some artistic interest and we are doing some easy modeling in wood right now.

Here is our next project, and for ease in reduction calculations, I am giving the wheel a diameter of 36' to use a 1/2" to 1' scale. The saws will actually work, and I plan on other tools to be added later.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Ed Weldon (3); JohnDG (1); Milo (3); qaqcpipeman (4); Zeitgeist (2)

Previous in Forum: Rubber Compound Color Uniformity   Next in Forum: Too Big a Welder

Advertisement