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No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 9:01 AM

"A new cosmological model demonstrates the universe can endlessly expand and contract, providing a rival to Big Bang theories and solving a thorny modern physics problem, according to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physicists.

"The cyclic model proposed by Dr. Paul Frampton, Louis J. Rubin Jr. distinguished professor of physics in UNC's College of Arts & Sciences, and co-author Lauris Baum, a UNC graduate student in physics, has four key parts: expansion, turnaround, contraction and bounce.

"During expansion, dark energy -- the unknown force causing the universe to expand at an accelerating rate -- pushes and pushes until all matter fragments into patches so far apart that nothing can bridge the gaps. Everything from black holes to atoms disintegrate. This point, just a fraction of a second before the end of time, is the turnaround.

"At the turnaround, each fragmented patch collapses and contracts individually instead of pulling back together in a reversal of the Big Bang. The patches become an infinite number of independent universes that contract and then bounce outward again, re-inflating in a manner similar to the Big Bang. One patch becomes our universe.

"This cycle happens an infinite number of times, thus eliminating any start or end of time," Frampton said. "There is no Big Bang."

Read the full article here.

I'm a little sceptical, but then, it sounds so simple... What do you think?

Jorrie

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#1

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 10:08 AM

I'm content to wait and see.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 2:24 PM

That could take billions of years!

You are patient!

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 2:50 PM

I got nuthin' but time.

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#2

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 10:12 AM

I find it hard to believe that all the energy in a future universe can be found in one infinitesimal point of our universe. Why is it all these multi-universe theories are just able to neglect conservation of energy? I'm tired of these untestable "theory of everything" theories. Just because someone can imagine something and describe it with math doesn't make it physics.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 10:33 AM

The underlying physics of the universe is indeed "hard to believe".

The fault, dear Roger, is not in our stars, but in ourselves....

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#8
In reply to #2

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 10:26 PM

"Just because someone can imagine something and describe it with math doesn't make it physics."

----------

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.'"
1 Corinthians 3:19-20

"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
1 Corinthians 2:14-15


Pretty much says it all...

-e

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#28
In reply to #2

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:55 AM

New theories need to avoid conservation of energy principle because it inevitably leads to a creation event or to the denial of all laws of physics (call it extreme relativism). And that would not be "scientifical". So the easiest way to avoid it is to include the word "infinite" in the new universe model. It's the magic word that releases the "scientist" from the responsability to demonstarte his theory. Convenient.

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#39
In reply to #28

Re: No Big Bang?

12/04/2007 9:06 AM

You are right but it is not likely to stick ----Einstein knew the answer in his little finger and his gut but could not state it in terms acceptable to Bohr and others when he objected to a problematic explanation of how the spectra are deterministically created by atomic matter. The proper answer which he could not realize with his continuous field equation was that molecules not atoms create all the lines in the spectra. He spent 30 years trying to "cosmological constant" figure out how to simplify his theory and pygmalion complex failed. The proper form for his field equation was simply G = R/3(v-squared) ----which my new theory explains and shows that his G is the same as Newton's G and the R is the same as Nerwton's R.

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#31
In reply to #2

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 12:22 PM

"Just because someone can imagine something and describe it with math doesn't make it physics"
I agree. It starts to be physics if (and only if) the underlying models conform to measurable reality in significant regions where they intersect - and reality doesn't contradict it elsewhere. Then, it becomes respectable when observations confirm a new result that it has predicted that aren't predicted by simpler theories.
However, 'model' can have multiple meanings. It can be a set of physical laws; or, for the present (cosmological) case, it can use a standard theoretical basis that is already known to give the best available fit. From there, we extrapolate based on the best available data - and make and state assumptions about the regions where adequate data is unavailable. Assuming no mistakes in the analysis (not a trivial assumption here), the extrapolation will usually point to something that can be measured to check whether this particular model is correct. If no such uncertainty exists, then either the model is void (i.e. it is not saying anything useful), or it becomes one of the family of models that future work can prove or disprove.

At the point where it is the simplest model that fits all known facts, it should (sometimes even does) become the accepted model of the universe (for the time being)

Sorry, that ended up much longer than intended

Fyz

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#6

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 6:17 PM

One of my teachers, many years ago, when the "steady state" theory was around, proposed essentially this theory. If we wait a billion years, and it turns out to be correct, should we look him up to award a prize? I wish I could remember his name.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 10:07 PM

Blink asked: "If we wait a billion years, and it turns out to be correct, should we look him up to award a prize? I wish I could remember his name."

-------

But by then won't it be too late? And none of his reincarnations in the infinitude of universes that follow will remember his work - or will they? But this idea itself raises the question: was it your teacher's idea, or should the real credit go to one of his pre-incarnations an infinite number of universes back?

My pre-incarnations have pondered this question endlessly. I think.

Haven't we had this discussion before?

-e

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 11:34 PM

My head always hurts when the "Big Bang" / creation theories come up. It is just such a big thing to get your head around.

How the whole universe develops from a single point at a single location with one huge explosion, producing all that back ground radiation that George Smoot got a Nobel Prise for proving.

Now it is suppose to expand until it disintegrates.

Is this supported by any evidence or just a colourful guess?

Is there some fundamental, (perhaps I should say basic) difference between the creation storey supported by the people of the book (Jews, Christians & Islamists) and the "Big Bang Theory" or is it just the difference between a 5000BC agrarian economy and a 2000AD industrialised, commercialised, society. Are they describing the same thing from different prospectives?

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 11:54 PM

Hi Europium:

I can only speak from my own experience, but prior to his revelation, I didn't dream every night about endless bungee jumping. I think that if his theory were first developed in an earlier universe, we'd all be suffering from this condition: knowledge seemingly encoded in our genes -- perpetual dread of the transition and things that go BOING.

I like your new avatar. I like sheep. Er, no, don't get me wrong, I meant... Because I am gong to ask a favor, rest assured that I will not stoop to the puerile depths that might be plumbed by others.

So, what do you know about the EEstor folks (who appear to be located in Austin)? Is their capacitor as super as advertised? If you don't know about them, sneak around, look in their back window, and report back to me. I think I read that they charge this 400# thing up to 3200 volts. I'd guess that any lab accidents could be heard all over Austin, and possibly as far away as Dallas.

Thanks, Ken

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 1:22 AM

I followed up on eestor with Zenn cars for whom they are supposed to supply these ultra capacitors...the local dealer I spoke to says eestor has been talking about this for years and is still years away from delivering product. Also the first batteries will be too expensive to use in cars at their projected price target.

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#14
In reply to #11

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 1:45 AM

Hey Ken,

Mind if I post more once the smoke clears?

(cough) -e

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#17
In reply to #11

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 2:13 AM

Ken,

Re: EEStor, I found this: "What they are doing in Austin with their Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers money is developing a "parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric"...

Barium titanate is a piezoelectric - more specifically, a ferroceramic - material commonly used in acoustic transducers and the like. Basically BaTiO3 (which has largely been supplanted in piezoelectric applications by lead zirconate, or PZT) bends under electrical stress. Perhaps the energy is stored in this way?

Also, "fully-dense barium titanate has 40% higher permittivity than the material prepared in classical ways," according to Wikipedia, allowing it to store more charge at a lower voltage.

Wonder if this is the basis for EEStor's "hypercapacitor?" Or a combination of higher permittivity and piezoelectric properties give it an energy-storage advantage over other materials?

Barium titanate is also brittle and tends to crack easily under electrical stress. Wonder if their investors know that?

-e

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#9

Re: No Big Bang?

01/31/2007 11:27 PM

This is simple. Being the smartest anonymous poster in the world...

What we see is what we get. Multiply that reality through time, given all the facts gathered of what we see and have seen what can happen and what can't. Big Bang comes from one, a thief put it together. Give and Take and ambivalence of seeming perfection. See what I mean? Who wants a BEER?

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#16
In reply to #9

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 1:48 AM

Smartest Guest-type Anonymous Poster In The World queries: "Who wants a BEER?"

----

I'll take one - if there's any left.

-e

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#12

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 12:27 AM

Jorrie,

Well it certainly sidesteps the question of "what was before the beginning", or how did it all start.

Greg

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#22
In reply to #12

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 7:41 AM

Hi Greg, you said: "Well it certainly sidesteps the question of "what was before the beginning", or how did it all start."

Yep, but one wonders how it could just have always been, I mean the repeating cycles. Must it not have had a first cycle? Then we're back at the big bang!

What makes it completely esoteric to me is this: the degenerative phase, where everything will be locked up in dead stars is calculated to be ~1014 years. We are now at ~1010 years, so this is when the universe is 10 thousand times older than today. After innumerable more such periods, proton decay will presumably start...

We cannot even predict the orbits of the planets or asteroids for more than a few centuries into the future, so what does a theory that talks about (say) 1020 years into the future mean?

Jorrie

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#15

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 1:47 AM

I like this no big bang concept. I've always thought the only way to have everything and nothing at the same time is to have cyclic waves that are out of phase so when you add the amplitudes of an infinite number of cyclic waves that are out of phase the net total is 0.

What I really can't figure out is where are all the laws of the universe stored? In a human body all the rules of organization and how everything works is stored in our DNA. Where is the equivalent storage place for the universe?

I mean for an example, from when the big bang or beginning of the universe happened or not, how did a law that covers the how to make a smaller transistor (as recently discovered by IBM) for more modern computers come to be? I mean this law that set down how it would happen was made 13.5 billion years ago. How did that happen?

I mean things are not supposed to be pre-ordained or are they. All the laws of physics have been created and are just waiting for us to discover them or what?

Like does a tree falling in a forest make a sound if there is nobody to hear it...Does a law of physics exist before somebody discovers it?

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 2:22 AM

sail4ever (something I'd like to do, too) asks: "Does a law of physics exist before somebody discovers it?"

-----

Your question may itself contain its own answer. When something is "discovered," doesn't the word suggest a pre-discovery existence? As opposed to, say, something that is "invented" or "created?"

-e

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#24
In reply to #15

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:08 AM

ah yes, the tree in the woods...

But if that tree falls on an unsuspecting rabbit....does the rabit make a sound???

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:20 AM

Guest asks: "But if that tree falls on an unsuspecting rabbit....does the rabit make a sound???"

-----

Nary a sound. But his attorney yells, "LITIGATE!"

-e

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:24 AM

Yes - with those ears, there would be a sound.

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#19

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 3:06 AM

Always (at least 100 years) speaking of expansion/contraction of the universe (where ?).

And NEVER a preliminary definition of terms, in order to formulate propositions with logical foundation.

The school of B. Russel, R. Carnap, L. Wittgenstein, et cetera, is definitively dead.

Have a good time, and go on so.

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#20

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 5:15 AM

Dear Jorrie,

From general thinking of possible ways the things could happen in universe:

I feel that more approate theory would be one which doesn't go to extremes of complete disintegration or Big Bang. Something in between will be more appropriate. Hence even I feel black hole is also artifact of mathematical juggleries. Even observations close to Black hole theory are misinterpretation of some other Phenomenon.

Can you suggest more reading on dark matter and its role on acceleration of Universe expansion.

Is it some energy (which is unmeasurable in energy parameters) which is pushing universe apart and we call it a dark matter.


Nandan

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 7:27 AM

Hi nandan, you wrote: "Can you suggest more reading on dark matter and its role on acceleration of Universe expansion.

Is it some energy (which is unmeasurable in energy parameters) which is pushing universe apart and we call it a dark matter."

I think you confuse dark matter with dark energy. Dark matter tries to stop the expansion by gravitational attraction, just like ordinary matter does. Dark energy (most probably vacuum energy, also called the 'cosmological constant') does apparently accelerate the expansion. It is not understood, but it is a model that fits observations very well.

You can get a start by reading some downloads from my website: particularly the chapters on the Einstein-de-Sitter model and the Friedmann equation.

There are also many Wikipedia articles on the two subjects - just do a search there.

BTW, black hole evidence is abundant - you will have a very hard time trying to explain many, many observations without black holes!

Regards,

Jorrie

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#23

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 8:55 AM

Hi Jorrie

It's viability is not yet remotely testable, as no detailed modelling results are yet visible...

Plus - the theory is (to me) fundamentally unattractive. If the emotional objection to the big bang theories is their lack of reciprocity, this doesn't seem to solve it (i.e. each universe divides into several non-communicating universes at its end).

The only attraction, so far as I can see, is that it appears to violate the only physical "laws" that have so far proved robust - thermodynamics, and specifically entropy.

So, count me out, until:
a) the theory has been through peer review and declared robust
b) one of its unique predictions is found to bear fruit

I doubt I will live long enough for that - though it's conceivable (if the theory doesn't hold together) that I'll live long enough to see a retraction

Fyz

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#32
In reply to #23

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 2:19 PM

Hi Fyz

I agree, but this theory is so "neat" that I cannot see a reason why it would fail any test - there simply are no tests conceivable that could falsify it, short of waiting for 104 or more years!

BTW, I do not think the theory even violates increasing entropy. The more times it repeats, the greater the entropy - I might be wrong though!

Regards, Jorrie

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 3:03 PM

Hi Jorrie

I looked at the publication. It is clear that the authors regard this as very early stage work, as the publication was "in the hope that it would encourage a more compelling and detailed formulation". Also, it appears that their formulation of the theory may be at least partially testable, and possibly even within my lifetime, so I was doing the authors an injustice. The viability of the theory depends on the (constant in the) equation of state for "dark energy" - if it turns out to be greater than -1, then this version falls apart. However, given that most times we look at cosmological parameters, they fall on the boundaries of the various possibilities*, my money (not more than ZAR 0.01 or so - I wouldn't wish to acquire a reputation for impetuousness) would be on the measurements being indistinguishable from -1.
*Is this elegance, or merely cussedness?

Regarding the continuous increase of entropy, wouldn't this require an inordinate number of secondary big bangs? [I suppose that it's conceivable that continuously increasing entropy applies only to electromagnetically related activity??? (blast, there goes any reputation for caution)]

Fyz

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#36
In reply to #33

Re: No Big Bang?

02/05/2007 2:31 AM

Hi Fyz

You wrote: "... Also, it appears that their formulation of the theory may be at least partially testable, and possibly even within my lifetime, so I was doing the authors an injustice."

Yes, it is good to see that they at least proposed a feasible test. I'm also not too hopeful for a decisive result in my lifetime.

Regards, Jorrie

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: No Big Bang?

02/05/2007 9:23 AM

Yes, I think we have to conclude that the Jorrie is still out.

(Please don't hit me... my brain is fried.)

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: No Big Bang?

02/05/2007 1:03 PM

Hi Ken

In my nick of the (UT+2) woods, it's no time to hit out at anybody. For tonight, we can pretend that there is no end to the universe and we (or our descendants) can all live happily ever after!

Best regards,

Jorrie

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#25

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:15 AM

Black holes seem to be destined to play a major role in the recycling of universes. Imagine a black hole growing ever larger until it consumes all of the universe including time. What then? Big Bang or a whole new concept. Whatever, if that scenario were to prevail, physics as we know the subject, might be radically different and concepts such as entropy, gravity and such might be as alien to that existence as fourth dimensional theories are to our three dimensional reality.

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#29
In reply to #25

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 11:55 AM

Almost invisible, under most conditions so far, unmeasurable. What better basis for a theory? And better yet, the only way anyone will find any mistakes is to go painstakingly through every line of your maths - and only your real enemies will bother (possibly not even them, as that consequences for their own sinecures might be adversely affected if someone goes through their calculations.

-----------------------------
"Call me cynical, call me stupid, but above all call me"

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#30

Re: No Big Bang?

02/01/2007 12:16 PM

This idea has been around since the 80's, and it is a pretty neat one.

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#34

Re: No Big Bang?

02/02/2007 12:06 AM

How about, maybe it just dosn't contract. It just keeps expanding, that is what I believe. I have very solid reason and theory to believe so. it is even more simple!

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: No Big Bang?

02/05/2007 2:18 AM

Guest wrote: "How about, maybe it just dosn't contract. It just keeps expanding, that is what I believe."

Your believe is surely in line with the present 'best buy' theory. The 'jury is still out' on the scenario painted in the article and they may stay out for a long while...

Jorrie

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