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Refrigerant R-410a

07/23/2010 7:47 AM

Does anybody have any experience - good or bad - with the new refrigerant R-410a? R-22 is being phased as it is said no new equipment is being manufactured using it, and new equipment uses R-410a.

R-410a runs at higher pressures, 130 psig (8.8 bar) at 45 F(7 C)

and 295 psig (20 bar) at 95 F (35 C)

I heard once that the triple point of R-410a is not very much above some temperatures that can can be expected on Planet Earth - say 130 F (54 C).

Is this true? Will a dirty condenser shut machines using these refrigerants down?

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#1

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/23/2010 12:59 PM

I have had no adverse experiences with the two vehicles I own that use R410a. In normal (if you call living where the temperature has been in the 115°F range this week) use I can tell no difference in creature comfort between the two systems.

And, my wife has never complained about the triple point of the AC in her 7 year old vehicle. I don't recall any service at all of her unit.

I had to have my compressor and some hoses replaced this year, but the truck is 10 years old and I consider this normal for the operating environment.

Maybe someone who lives where it gets REALLY hot has had bad experiences, but not me.

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#2

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/23/2010 2:26 PM

What vehicles use R-22 or R-410A? I thought most vehicles used R-12 or R-134A

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/23/2010 4:30 PM

Sorry. Once again I have failed to engage my brain before typing. I'm sure that Coldspot was referring to industrial systems which do use the fluids that you suggest.

Sorry my mistake. I think it's the heat.

OOPS! There went my credibility.

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 9:50 AM

In that climate people must have burrowed in holes before mechanical refrigeration!

Just kidding, but here in America we going to have rewrite dress codes after the Deepwater Horizon spill.

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/25/2010 11:35 AM

Once more your posts are proven to be just based on a google search and not any knowledge. Sad really that you feel the need to boost your ego on a website. Oh, it has nothing to do with the heat, just a lack of edúcation.

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#4

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 12:44 AM

R410a does run at significantly higher pressures than R22- it CANNOT be used in a R22 machine or it will blow out all the seals, likely overload the motor and do other nasty things.

BUT- a machine designed for R410a will run very similar to R22 efficiencies.

The Triple point of R410a is over 161F(72C) and over 700 PSIG(47 BAR). An applications engineer from DOW has told me that- if it exceeds 161+F(72C), there is no "end of the world" experience, just high pressures with a superheated refrigerant.

I am using it in a totally different application at temperatures of over 155F (68C) and over 650 PSIG (43 BAR) saturated.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 9:54 AM

Thanks, that's the information I was looking for.

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/27/2010 12:12 AM

Blow out what seals?????? Hope ya are talking about common split or package units. So far Havent used R410A in automotive. Have been sent equipment for split systems with the newer R410 valve that have the factory pressure checked at the 150 psi evap to the 300 psi condensor coil. Wonder how that will fare in the long run.

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Anonymous Poster
#5

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 1:03 AM

DuPont has a substitute refrigerant for R-22 which doesn't require the condensor or evaporater to be changed. Try Googling for R-22 replacements.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 1:06 AM

It is NOT R410a.

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#7

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/24/2010 1:49 AM

R410A is a blend of HFC-32 and HFC-125 (50/50 wt %). It is an azeotropic refrigerant. It performs very much like a single component refrigerant. The physical and chemical properties of R-410A are very similar to those for R-22 as well as most of today's HFC refrigerants. In 1996 the EPA formally recognized R410A as a substitute for R22. Leading chemical companies have made a strong effort to sell R410A to air- conditioning manufacturers as a long –term replacement for R22.Following are some of the positive points for considering R410A as an alternative to R22 especially for new A.C Systems.

  • Higher Capacity Equipment: Equipment designed for R410A has demonstrated up to 40% greater capacity when compared to current HCFC-22 equipment. It allows for smaller equipment sizes. Majority of the customers prefer smaller size equipment.
  • Easy Servicing: As it is azeotropic mixture it behaves almost like a pure refrigerant and therefore it can be repeatedly topped off.
  • Safe and Easy to Use: R410A has an A1 ASHRAE safety classification, which means it has lower toxicity and no flame propagation.
  • Higher Efficiency: R410A systems exhibit about a 10% increase in the Coefficient of Performance.

Some of R410 properties are given in table 1

Table1

S.No Name of Properties with Unit Value
1 Molecular weight 72.6
2 Boiling point (at 1.0 atm.), °F -62.9
3 Freezing point (at 1.0 atm.), °F -247
4 Critical temperature, °F 163
5 Critical pressure, psia 720
6 Saturated liquid density (at 86°F), lb/ft

3

64.64
7 Specific heat of liquid (at 86°F), Btu/lb-°F 0.42
8 Specific heat of vapor at constant pressure C

p (at 86°F and 1.0 atm.), Btu/lb-°F

0.21
9 Flammable range (% volume in air) None
10 ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 34-1992 Safety Group Classification A1
11 Ozone depletion potential (ODP) 0.00
12 Latent Heat of Vaporisation at atmospheric pressure ( kj/kg) 271.5

This reft operates at a significantly higher pressure than R22. This may seem to be a negative characteristic of this refrigerant; but this negative point has forced the designers to design more robust design and superior control & protection techniques. Because of the higher pressure for R-410A, most system components have been designed with increased wall thickness. Due to the robust design the system reliability has improved.R410A pressure drop is also less than R22. A LEED pre-requisite is that HVAC equipment must not use a CFC refrigerant. R410A is one of the green refrigerants and can earn extra LEED point. It is to be kept in mind that R410A can not be used as retrofitting refrigerant applications because of the higher pressures associated with it.

Servicing and safety

Most R410A systems use a Polyolester lubricant (POE). It is to be noted that POE lubricants readily absorb moisture and therefore minimize exposure of lubricant or internal parts of the system to the atmosphere. Proper care should be taken while handling lubricant of this refrigerant. Following are few tips to handle the POE lubricant.

· Don't store POE oils in plastic containers. Use glass or metal.

· POE oils can cause skin irritation and therefore use gloves and use care when handling lubricant.

· Wash any exposed skin with soap and water to remove lubricant.

For detecting leak electronic leak detectors can be used but the detector must be capable of detecting a HFC refrigerant. It is to be noted that older leak detectors designed for R-22 may not be sensitive enough to detect R410A.Use of halide torches should be avoided as these torches cannot effectively detect R410A refrigerant leak from the system. Using soap solution is not advisable as small leaks may not be detected with soap solution. UV sensitive dyes can also be used effectively.

Service technicians who work on R410A systems should use approved service tools to handle the high pressures of the system. These includes-gauges manifold gauge sets require a 800 psig high-side with a 250 psig low-side & all hoses should be rated for 800 psig. Recovery cylinders require a 400 psig service pressure rating and use cylinders approved for R410A.

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Active Contributor

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#13
In reply to #7

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/27/2010 12:25 AM

ya talk a mean game for the 410a but in the field its not user friendly. Placement of the equipment is critical in that flood back will shorten compressor life on the scroll compressor. Now the factory suggestion is that a suction " hump" be installed between the cond. and the air handler, a sweet looking deal just before the evaporator.

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Guru

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#11

Re: Refrigerant R-410a

07/26/2010 5:52 PM

What equipment will not shut down because of an un-maintained dirty condenser if it has a properly adjusted and working hi pressure cut off? -- JHF

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