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Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/09/2010 4:00 AM

Could anyone say what would the advantages be of adding about 10% petrol to diesel for use in diesel engines?

In South Africa the railways added 15% petrol to diesel for use in diesel locomotives when diesel was scarce.

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#1

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/09/2010 10:00 AM

10% petrol in diesel fuel would be very bad for the engine. I have seen Diesel rendered off spec with very small quantities of petrol. I was working on a pipeline tank farm and we kept getting diesel off spec and finally determined that a multi-fuel manifold was retaining about 300 gallons of petrol. When we changed products to receive diesel the entire 500'000 gallon batch was rendered off spec.

What I mean by off spec is our lab analysis observed flash points much lower than is safe for diesel engines. This cold lead to pre-detonation and increased friction damage from engine parts that need the oily diesel. It would also lead to poor economy due to worn rings and inconsistent firing of cylinders.

Drew

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#2

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/09/2010 10:28 AM

Very silly practice i could understand if you added heating oil, aviation kerosene, paraffin. engine oil. lamp oil, cooking oil, melted wax, honey, baby oil, melted butter, melted margarine, rape seed oil,

But petrol no way.

the analogy would be ,"My candles give out more light if i mix nitro glycerine into the wax".

You alter the flash point of diesel and so the pump timing needs to be altered the fuel pump if used for extended time could wear faster as petrol has no lubricating properties thats why they put oil in two stoke fuel.

pre detonation could damage engines and if the manufactures found out you warranty would be void.

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#3

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/09/2010 10:59 PM

The addition of petrol is likely to cause delayed ignition and harsher operation. The effect of this would be increased bearing, piston and other loads, with associated increased wear if not outright failure.

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#4

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 12:10 AM

We get to take in consideration of many issues before dismissing diesel/petrol mix practice-:

When SA railways added petrol into diesel did they modify engine and its fuel system before use ? we need the facts.

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#17
In reply to #4

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 8:07 AM

No modification is needed. Combustion of feul injected, must start the moment that the tiniest partical of feul leaves the injector tip.....If one could see inside the combustion chamber of a diesel engine, one would not see feul injected......it would look as if a flame is injected. No matter what feul is used...as long as the flash point of the feul is about 350 C or less. Adding petrol to diesel feul would even cause less engine knocking, better cold starting, and cleaner, more efficient burning of the feul.

BUT if too much petrol is added, the diesel pump and injectors will wear rapidly because of less lubrication! So, hou much petrol would do no damage??????

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 4:46 PM

Many seem to not understand the difference between petrol and diesel engines and their fuels, Jurie sa especially.

A petrol engines combustion is initiated by a spark, any hot spots can cause premature ignition that may or may not be audible but most often heard as pinking or knocking. The fuel is developed to obviate this and this is why we have the octane rating system to rate the likelihood of knock through standardised engine tests (compared to iso-octane).

A diesel engine's ignition commences as soon as the fuel is injected into the cylinder around top dead centre, where the compression has heated the air to well over the auto-ignition temperature. For engines that are indirect injection, i.e. have a separate combustion chamber, the use of a glow plug for starting is required to overcome the heat loss to the chamber walls, and for small diesel engines where the surface area to volume ratio is high (so the heat loss is again high on starting) then the compresion ratios are quite high to get the temperature of the compressed air high enough.

In reality the ignition of the fuel takes a finite time so a small but significant amount of fuel will have flowed before the ignition really takes off. this is most pronounced when the engine is relatively cool say at idle, this when the diesel knock is most obvious. The rating of diesel fuels is relative to Cetane not iso-octane and relates to the delay of ignition.

Modern common rail diesel engines often provide a wee squirt of fuel before the main flow to preheat the compressed gas further.

Adding petrol to diesel will lower the cetane rating giving greater noise and the potential for engine damage. Those with no mechanical sympathy are happy to drive around with low octane fuel in their petrol cars designedfor higher octane and ignore any pinking, then wonder why the piston skirt falls off or the piston lands collapse.

Similar failures could happen to a diesel with petrol-blended fuel.

The comments about cold winters and adding petrol or kerosine to the fuel is to improve the viscosity of the diesel. When really cold, waxes can crystallise out of diesel and clog filters. These additions will relieve this. Fuel companies do add kerosine to winterise fuels in really cold countries such as northern Canada. They would not add petrol though, if it really cold the last thing you would want to do is to delay ignition and this is what petrol additions will do.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 5:17 PM

then wonder why the piston skirt falls off

Very embarasing when your skirt falls off whatever the reason

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 10:54 PM

Addition to diesel fuels being different in winter with anti-gel additives or blends, petrol is different in summer, or if destined to be sold in an urban area. We use a lower volatility petrol in the summer and in urban areas to reduce evaporated emissions.

Believe it or not, there is a great deal of thought and knowledge put into the fuels that are distributed to petrol stations across the world. Fuels are also sampled many times between the refinery and the local filling station. The modern ethanol blended fuels are actually a much lower octane rated fuel passing through the pipelines and tank farms, it isn't until the ethanol is added that it achieves its final octane levels.

We also only have two types of petrol in pipelines and storage farms. The mid grade is usually mixed at the pump as a blend of premium and standard grades. It is a mathematical blending of the two fuels and never tested for octane except by third parties.

Drew

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#5

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 12:51 AM

Dear Team,

The humor inducted in the technical discussions makes the reading worthwhile. Great.

Muthukrishnan

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#6

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 3:41 AM

IIRC, didn't they used to add petrol to diesel for truck etc in WWII in the depths of the Russian winter, to prevent waxing up? Not really relevant to South African Railways, but presumably better than than a fuel that doesn't flow.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 12:50 PM

Very small amounts of gasoline can be blended into diesel, this is done with off spec fuel in the pipeline industry. But it is done very carefully after much research on how much we can blend without altering the fuel being blended to.

A very small amount of gasoline might be added to diesel to try to lower its gel temp, but will not be effective without causing damage to diesel engines.

Kerosene was a more common additive because of it's lower gel point and similar properties to diesel. Currently at remote locations the military mixes JP8 jet fuel with diesel in about a 1 to 3 ratio to prevent gelling in winter. Jet fuel has a lower gel point and military JP8 also has an additive that prevents gelling at the cold high altitudes.

Drew

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 1:03 PM

Yes when i worked for British Telecom in the UK when the winters were really cold and the fuel was freezing around 1976 ish i think we also put kerosine (uk parafin) into the diesel tanks to stop the fuel gelling this worked out really well.

The batteries Froze as well,

And much cheaper than the commercially avalable diesel anti freeze ( yes it does exist)

It was much safer than setting rags on fire under the diesel fuel tanks, and less worrying for the drivers who thought we were mad setting fire to their trucks.

but more fun than adding kerosine to diesel

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#7

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 5:00 AM

I had a diesel Vauxhall Astra a few years ago. 1.7 I think. After I had put in £20 of UNLEADED I realized I had made a mistake. This was about one third of a tank. I filled up with diesel, which cost about another £30 ( the price differential was greater then).

The result?... Nothing really. It was a bit harder to start, maybe four seconds on the key not 3.

That was a good car.... written off by a boy racer in his dad's renault turbo, doing 70 or 80mph, undertaking, in a 30 zone, in a bus lane. And his dad came and was angry with me!

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#8

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 11:35 AM

A little petrol in the diesel makes it run better and start easier in the winter.

The old mercedes diesel owners manuals reccomended a 5% mix, i believe, as do several other older diesel manuals.

Newer diesels may be a bit more particular though. I wouldnt go with more than a 5% mix in them.

If you are going to blend fuels, i suggest you go check out infopops biodiesel site, where vegoil conversions are discussed.

There is a particular blend for diesels known as kuegels mix that if i remember right, is 75% filtered waste cooking oil, 20% diesel fuel and 5% reg gasoline, I believe he has driven over 100,000 miles on this blend now, with no problems.

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#11

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 1:55 PM

other then what has been said already I think the real danger from part mix is the formation of hard carbon deposits on the pistons, diesel engines are free of hard carbon deposits after many thousands of hours of operation and low sulfar fuels help to eliminate what little deposits we used to see, petrol engines get deposits that can build up to the point of causing detonation and in extreme cases impact knock from the reduced clearance between the piston and head, I would never run petrol in my diesel, there are combustion modifiers available to add to the diesel for certain enviroments, the new diesles with high pressure common rail are new to the feild and we won't know what they will or will not tolerate, once I tried a pint of tricloroethelene solvent degreaser used in avaition in the old days in my peugeot and it seemed to run real sweet but the birds were dropping out of the sky behind my car, I would not repeat the trick to calc results, freind I got it from had lukemia from the use of this type of solvent in wwII, Nasty stuff,..
Mitch Ret Peug mech

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 2:17 PM

Physiological effects

When inhaled, trichloroethylene produces central nervous system depression resulting in general anesthesia. Its high lipid solubility results in a less desirable slower induction of anesthesia. At low concentrations it is relatively non-irritating to the respiratory tract. Higher concentrations result in tachypnea. Many types of cardiac arrhythmias can occur and are exacerbated by epinephrine (adrenaline). It was noted in the 1940s that TCE reacted with carbon dioxide (CO2) absorbing systems (soda lime) to produce dichloroacetylene and phosgene.[2] Cranial nerve dysfunction (especially the fifth cranial nerve) was not uncommon when TCE anesthesia was given using CO2 absorbing systems. These nerve deficits could last for months. Occasionally facial numbness was permanent. Muscle relaxation with TCE anesthesia sufficient for surgery was poor. For these reasons as well as problems with hepatotoxicity, TCE lost popularity in North America and Europe to more potent anesthestics such as halothane by the 1960s.[3]

The symptoms of acute non-medical exposure are similar to those of alcohol intoxication, beginning with headache, dizziness, and confusion and progressing with increasing exposure to unconsciousness.[4] Respiratory and circulatory depression can result in death.

Much of what is known about the human health effects of trichloroethylene is based on occupational exposures. Beyond the effects to the central nervous system, workplace exposure to trichloroethylene has been associated with toxic effects in the liver and kidney [4]. Over time, occupational exposure limits on trichloroethylene have tightened, resulting in more stringent ventilation controls and personal protective equipment use by workers.

Research from Cancer bioassays performed by the National Cancer Institute (later the National Toxicology Program) showed that exposure to trichloroethylene is carcinogenic in animals, producing liver cancer in mice, and kidney cancer in rats.[4][5] Research published in 1994 examined the incidence of leukemia and non-Hodgkin lymphoma in populations exposed to TCE in their drinking water.[6]

The National Toxicology Program's 11th Report on Carcinogens categorizes trichloroethylene as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen", based on limited evidence of carcinogenicity from studies in humans and sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity from studies in experimental animals.[7]

One recent review of the epidemiology of kidney cancer rated cigarette smoking and obesity as more important risk factors for kidney cancer than exposure to solvents such as trichloroethylene.[8] In contrast, the most recent overall assessment of human health risks associated with trichloroethylene states, "[t]here is concordance between animal and human studies, which supports the conclusion that trichloroethylene is a potential kidney carcinogen".[9] The evidence appears to be less certain at this time regarding the relationship between humans and liver cancer observed in mice, with the NAS suggesting that low-level exposure might not represent a significant liver cancer risk in the general population.

Recent studies in laboratory animals and observations in human populations suggest that exposure to trichloroethylene might be associated with congenital heart defects [10][11][12][13][14] While it is not clear what levels of exposure are associated with cardiac defects in humans, there is consistency between the cardiac defects observed in studies of communities exposed to trichloroethylene contamination in groundwater, and the effects observed in laboratory animals. A study published in August 2008, has demonstrated effects of TCE on human mitochondria. The article questions whether this might impact female reproductive function. [15]

The health risks of trichloroethylene have been studied extensively. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) sponsored a "state of the science" review of the health effects associated with exposure to trichloroethylene.[16] The National Academy of Sciences concluded that evidence on the carcinogenic risk and other potential health hazards from exposure to TCE has strengthened since EPA released their toxicological assessment of TCE, and encourages federal agencies to finalize the risk assessment for TCE using currently available information, so that risk management decisions for this chemical can be expedited.[9]

[edit] Human exposure

The examples and perspective in this section

may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (February 2010)

Some are exposed to TCE through contaminated drinking water.[17] Another significant source of vapor exposure in Superfund sites that had contaminated groundwater, such as the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant, was by showering. TCE readily volatilizes out of hot water and into the air. Long, hot showers would then volatilize more TCE into the air. In a home closed tightly to conserve the cost of heating and cooling, these vapors would then recirculate.

The first known report of TCE in groundwater was given in 1949 by two English public chemists who described two separate instances of well contamination by industrial releases of TCE.[18] Based on available federal and state surveys, between 9% to 34% of the drinking water supply sources tested in the U.S. may have some TCE contamination, though EPA has reported that most water supplies are in compliance with the Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) of 5 ppb.[19] In addition, a growing concern in recent years at sites with TCE contamination in soil or groundwater has been vapor intrusion in buildings, which has resulted in indoor air exposures, such is in a recent case in the McCook Field Neighborhood of Dayton, Ohio.[20] Trichloroethylene has been detected in 852 Superfund sites across the United States,[21] according to the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). Under the Safe Drinking Water Act of 1974, and as amended [22] annual water quality testing is required for all public drinking water distributors. The EPA'S current guidelines for TCE can be found here. It should be noted that the EPA's table of "TCE Releases to Ground" is dated 1987 to 1993, thereby omitting one of the largest Superfund Cleanup sites in the nation, the NIBW in Scottsdale, Arizona. The TCE "released" here occurred prior to its appearance in the municipal drinking wells in 1982.[23]

In 1998, the View-Master factory supply well in Beaverton, Oregon was found to have been contaminated with high levels of TCE. It was estimated that 25,000 factory workers had been exposed to it from 1950–2001.[24]

As of 2007, 57,000 pounds, or roughly 19 tons of TCE have been removed from the system of wells that once supplied drinking water to the residents of Scottsdale.[25] One of the three drinking water wells previously owned by the City of Phoenix and ultimately sold to the City of Scottsdale, tested at 390 ppb TCE when it was closed in 1982. (see East Valley Tribune, April 6, 2007, "Feds to Examine Superfund Site" by John Yantis) Some Scottsdale residents who received their water bills from the City of Phoenix throughout the 1960s and 70's were understandably confused as to whether they indeed had been consuming contaminated water when information about the Superfund site was first disseminated. The City of Scottsdale recently updated their website to clarify that the contaminated wells were "in the Scottsdale area" and to delete all references to the levels of TCE discovered when the wells were closed as "trace".[26]

A spot was then ultimately chosen to receive and treat the contaminated drinking water known as the Central Groundwater Treatment Facility. Then 1989, as now, this treatment facility (CGTF) is situated on land adjacent to Pima Park and the Siemens facility documented as one of the Potentially Responsible Parties at the corner of Thomas and Pima roads. Close proximity to this park did not appear to enter into Motorola's calculations when asserting that it would save money to remove the carbon air filters in 2007. (See East Valley Tribune, October 5, 2007, "Motorola wants to axe filters at Superfund site" by Ari Cohn)

Camp Lejeune in North Carolina may be the largest TCE contamination site in the country. Legislation could force the EPA to establish a health advisory and a national public drinking water regulation to limit trichloroethylene.[27]

For over twenty years of operation, the US-based multinational Radio Company of America (RCA) had been pouring toxic wastewater into a well in its Taoyuan, Taiwan facility. The pollution from the plant was not revealed until 1994, when former workers brought it to light. Investigation by the Taiwan Environmental Protection Administration confirmed that RCA had been dumping chlorinated organic solvents into a secret well and caused contamination to the soil and groundwater surrounding the plant site. High levels of TCE tetrachloroethylene (PCE) can be found in groundwater drawn as far as two kilometers from the site. An organization of former RCA employees reports 1375 cancer cases, 216 cancer deaths, and 102 cases of various tumors among its members.[28][29]

Trichloroethylene is a cleaning solvent that was used to clean military weapons during the Gulf War. There are reports associating exposure to this solvent with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Kasarskis EJ et al. Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, 2008 Sep 16:1-7, Clinical aspects of ALS in Gulf War Veterans), and also with a neurologic syndrome resembling Parkinson's disease (Gash DM. et al. Ann Neurol. 2008 Feb;63(2):184-92. Trichloroethylene: Parkinsonism and complex 1 mitochondrial neurotoxicity).

[edit] Existing regulation

Until recent years, the US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) contended that trichloroethylene had little-to-no carcinogenic potential, and was probably a co-carcinogen—that is, it acted in concert with other substances to promote the formation of tumors.

Half a dozen state, federal, and international agencies now classify trichloroethylene as a probable carcinogen. The International Agency for Research on Cancer considers trichloroethylene a Group 2A carcinogen, indicating that it considers it is probably carcinogenic to humans.[30] California EPA regulators consider it a known carcinogen and issued a risk assessment in 1999 that concluded that it was far more toxic than previous scientific studies had shown.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 2:45 PM

HUH. Don't get me started on ASPARTAME

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 2:55 PM

Ah a sweeter thing than diesel

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 2:57 PM

WoW

Nothing to worry about then

Adverse reactions and side effects of aspartame include:

Eye
blindness in one or both eyes
decreased vision and/or other eye problems such as: blurring, bright flashes, squiggly lines, tunnel vision, decreased night vision
pain in one or both eyes
decreased tears
trouble with contact lenses
bulging eyes

Ear
tinnitus - ringing or buzzing sound
severe intolerance of noise
marked hearing impairment

Neurologic
epileptic seizures
headaches, migraines and (some severe)
dizziness, unsteadiness, both
confusion, memory loss, both
severe drowsiness and sleepiness
paresthesia or numbness of the limbs
severe slurring of speech
severe hyperactivity and restless legs
atypical facial pain
severe tremors

Psychological/Psychiatric
severe depression
irritability
aggression
anxiety
personality changes
insomnia
phobias

Chest
palpitations, tachycardia
shortness of breath
recent high blood pressure

Gastrointestinal
nausea
diarrhea, sometimes with blood in stools
abdominal pain
pain when swallowing

Skin and Allergies
itching without a rash
lip and mouth reactions
hives
aggravated respiratory allergies such as asthma

Endocrine and Metabolic
loss of control of diabetes
menstrual changes
marked thinning or loss of hair
marked weight loss
gradual weight gain
aggravated low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
severe PMS

Other
frequency of voiding and burning during urination
excessive thirst, fluid retention, leg swelling, and bloating
increased susceptibility to infection

Additional Symptoms of Aspartame Toxicity include the most critical symptoms of all
death
irreversible brain damage
birth defects, including mental retardation
peptic ulcers
aspartame addiction and increased craving for sweets
hyperactivity in children
severe depression
aggressive behavior
suicidal tendencies

Aspartame may trigger, mimic, or cause the following illnesses:
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Epstein-Barr
Post-Polio Syndrome
Lyme Disease
Grave's Disease
Meniere's Disease
Alzheimer's Disease
ALS
Epilepsy
Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
EMS
Hypothyroidism
Mercury sensitivity from Amalgam fillings
Fibromyalgia
Lupus
non-Hodgkins
Lymphoma
Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)

These are not allergies or sensitivities, but diseases and disease syndromes. Aspartame poisoning is commonly misdiagnosed because aspartame symptoms mock textbook 'disease' symptoms, such as Grave's Disease.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/10/2010 2:20 PM

not to mention a small amount of ethanol infused petrol[common in the US] could easily ruin various rubber seals in the fuel system

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 8:14 AM

Where in the whole of a diesel's feul system do one find rubber seals or any seals that could be harmed by petrol or ethanol?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix

09/12/2010 11:20 AM

Depends on the year & exact model

O-rings, flexible fuel lines, fuelpump shaft seals

more than one diesel bug owner has been faced with a large [$2500+] repair bill after switching to to biodiesel or used vegetable oil & having the fuel pump(s) fail

adding petrol to diesel lowers the flash point

do the potential benefits [whatever they may be] outweigh the risks?

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Diesel/Petrol Mix seals and o-rings

09/12/2010 1:36 PM

when you change the composition of the fuel after running and heat setting the compressed o-rings they can leech out compunds that cause them to shrink and leak, when usa went to low sulphur low benzene fuel there was a major run on fuel pump reseals, the o-rings were hard and when they shrunk in volumn after a couple of months of the new fuel leeching out the complex molecules from the buna rubber and leak-ola, I made small fortune removing and resealing the pumps on Peugeots, Volks and Volvo's, I could take one out and measure and mark settings disassemble and reseal re-ring and reinstall the pump on a turbo diesel peugeot in under 2 hours, the factory time just for replacing the pump with a rebuilt unit was 7 hours, the government was reimbursing the customers for 450.00 and I could do the job without disabling a car for the 3-5 days it took for a pump shop to rebuild the unit, during the time it was hard to find a shop without a dozen cars in teardown and wait period.. kit from bosch was 18.95. I even had to do my 81 Peugeot TD, so the state got a bill for every one..

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