Previous in Forum: Starting a Colony on Mars   Next in Forum: Building Solar
Close
Close
Close
19 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106

Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/12/2007 11:47 PM

I thought I would break up a document I wrote a few year ago (after reading some books) into some discussions. Be advised that I am not a expert in this field. I hope to learn from these. Here goes:

Light can be shined through a small hole in an opaque plate, then continuing on, through two other small holes in another plate. After the two holes can be placed a photographic plate or some kind of viewing screen. What happens is that the light from the two holes interferes with each other to form a pattern of light and dark bands on the screen. This, they say, is proof positive that light travels as a wave. It is compared to ripples in a pond when pebbles are dropped in. The ripples add up in places causing the light bands, and cancel out in other places causing the dark bands. This is not too mysterious because there is plenty of light here, enough to go through both holes at once. Physicists can now send a single photon of light through the experiment at a time (it requires great skill and sophisticated apparatus).

Now imagine that the screen is a photographic plate which records the arrival of each photon as a small white dot. You see exactly what you would expect – a single photon leaves the light source, and makes a single white dot on the plate. But as hundreds, then thousands, and then millions of photons pass through, a pattern develops – the same interference pattern as before! Now we have two mysteries – how did each photon go through both holes at once and interfere with themselves, and how did they know where to place themselves in the overall pattern?

Is this weird behavior just a property of photons which have no mass and travel at the speed of light? No, electrons also behave this way, and they have mass, and travel much more slowly. Their speed depends on the forces acting upon them. As Ralph Baierlein has put it in his book Newton to Einstein, "Light travels as a wave but departs and arrives as a particle." The same could be said about electrons. The electron experiment was carried out in 1987 by a Japanese team from Hitachi Research Labs and Gakushuin University in Tokyo.

Not only photons and electrons have the wave-particle duality. Atoms do too. The atom experiment is described in Hans von Baeyer's book Taming the Atom. An atom of carbon has 22 million times as much mass as an electron. Researchers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder Colorado have used two atoms (particles) in place of the holes, bouncing light off of them to produce the interference patterns.

How do physicists explain this behavior? The standard interpretation (since about 1930) is known as the Copenhagen interpretation because it was largely developed by the Danish physicist Niels Bohr, who worked in Copenhagen. The German physicists Werner Heisenberg and Max Born made major contributions. The key concept is called the 'collapse of the wave function.' They said that it was the act of observing the wave that made it collapse to become a particle. Another concept is that the wave going through the holes is actually a 'wave of probability', not a material wave at all. On this picture an electron (or atom) that is not being observed literally does not exist in the form of a particle at all. There is only the probability that it exists in one place, and another probability that it exists at another place. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that 'it is impossible to measure the position and the momentum of a quantum object at the same time.' The interpretation says that these properties do not even exist unless they are observed.

Does this explanation leave you cold? It does me! I will tell you of a book with a better explanation in Part 5.

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: Heisenberg light particle wave
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Circe,9 Majadahonda 28220. SPAIN
Posts: 94
Good Answers: 2
#1

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/14/2007 4:53 AM

I think he was Sir Francis Bacon who said:

"Esse est percipi"

That means many diferent things:

To be is to be perceived. Literal translation. Applicable for the phisycal world.

Or:

For me only matters what is known by me. Suitable for the intellectual and affective world.

Applying the reverse of the very well known principle: "Identity of the indiscernible beings":

One physical entity that is perceived simuntaneously in two separate places should consist of two diferent entities, unless we could consider an infinite speed.

I think the reason of the contradiction of one corpuscle being at the same time in two diferent places is that we do not know yet what really the space is.

Best regards,


Arturo Perez

__________________
QUIMERA
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#2

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/14/2007 9:56 AM

To say that something cannot exist until you observe it is like saying that when you close your eyes, the world disappears.Perhaps by forcing space thru such a small opening,space-time is compressed and turbulent , from the point of view of the photon, and enables it to travel what would appear to be faster than light from our point of view.This tubulence could cast an image oscillation at apparently (from our perspective) faster-than -light speed in more than one place at the same time, and we could not detect it from our viewpoint.It would appear to be in both places at once, like the electron beam on a television set. It scans faster than our retinal memory, so we do not perceive a flicker. Even the mass could appear to be both places, as far as we could tell.

Einstein did not exactly say that nothing could travel faster than light, merely that we could not observe or detect it if it did, so for all intents and purposes, it did not exist.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#3

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/14/2007 1:32 PM

I do not pretend to understand the experiments set up or carried out by these labs, nor the interpretation of the results. However (and I am asking a question here), if single particles (photons) are released through the series of holes described in these experiments and they can in fact be sensed by a photographic plate or other suitable means as single photons. Then wouldnt the intensity of a group of single photons when put through the experimental system should give a total intensity equivalent to the initial intensity if they are particles. I guess I would think that the statistics on the intensity of the bands coming through the second series of openings would provide a significant amount of information about what is happening.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 336
Good Answers: 5
#4

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/14/2007 2:09 PM

Very challenging discussion!

Could you please add polarization as initial condition to the single photon experiment you described and tell me the outcome?

What happens to the diffraction pattern if you move the holed panel back or forth with higher precision than the wavelength?

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/14/2007 7:41 PM

Hi Hottech,

you said: Could you please add polarization as initial condition to the single photon experiment you described and tell me the outcome?

I am not in a position to carry these experiments, and polarization will be part of a later post, but it seems to me that polarization would not affect a single photon except to block it or not block it, so the experiment would be the same with less intensity. That is only my opinion.

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 336
Good Answers: 5
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/15/2007 10:04 AM

That's OK - I understood it wasn't you conducting the photon experiment, but who did it? Do you have a link to read more?

Light polarization is about having a single plane of oscillation for E along its propagation between 2 points. So what do you mean by blocking the photon or not? Polarization is related only to the wave aspect.

I wouldn't melt in the same pot photons, electrons and atoms in a discussion on wave-particle duality of light. I would stick with photons and try to understand why there are three categories of experiments/effects:

1 - involving only the particle aspect (ex. photoelectric effect)

2 - involving only the wave aspect (ex. polarization)

3 - involving both (ex. Doppler effect)

Coming back to the photon experiment you mentioned: it seems to involve both aspects of light but for now I'm more interested in learning the intimate mechanism of light impression on a photographic plate. Until we don't know what's happening when light strikes the ionic Ag emulsion, we cannot explain the observed effect.

Regards

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/15/2007 9:20 PM

Hi Hottech,

I don't have a link, but as I said, in part 5 I will give a tittle of a book that this may have come from.

You said: "So what do you mean by blocking the photon or not? Polarization is related only to the wave aspect."

If light is traveling as a wave, and the wave has only one plane, then it will get through if it is in the same plane as the polarization filter. If it is in another plane it will get blocked. If the light source has multiple planes, then some photons will be blocked and others won't, depending on their planes, so the result is less intensity.

You said: "I wouldn't melt in the same pot photons, electrons and atoms in a discussion on wave-particle duality of light."

The discussion is wave-particle duality (not limited to light). If you ignore electrons and atoms you may be missing vital clues as to what is happening. You want to complicate the issue by adding polarization to it, which is a whole other mystery.

Regards,

S

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 336
Good Answers: 5
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/15/2007 10:00 PM

Hi StandardsGuy

It seems we aren't exactly on the same page.

If you really want to find the nature of things, an experiment has to be very clear, accurate and reproducible. It was about one single photon for which I asked to polarize the accompanying wave. How this is accomplish is a different story. Then, pass the single photon + polarized wave through one tiny hole of the first panel and then through another two of the second panel and adjust the distance between at least one opaque panel and the photographic plate within a wavelength. Watch how the diffraction pattern is modified and what is the difference between using non-polarized and polarized SINGLE photons.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#7

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/15/2007 12:03 PM

I think the mystery clears up if one thinks of the propagation of an electromagnetic wave (photon) as a field that is emanating from it's particular location at any instant, as a spherically expanding 3-D field in all directions. Consider the "direction" of this photon to be the vector of "real power", which is a probabilistic envelope of bulbous-shaped gradients.

From this perspective, it makes sense to expect that different portions of the photon have their "probability gradients" shaped by the objects and fields they encounter. Thus their "hit" on a target represents the centroid of the real-power vector at the location of the target plane.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Israel
Posts: 2968
Good Answers: 24
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/15/2007 6:06 PM

Describing a particle as a complex force-field (made of dispersed probability of potentials, or as a "cloud" of probabilities) and not as a concrete "solid" item, may agree better with intuitive perception of quantum "weird" behaviour, and do some justice to other known paradoxes.

If Pauli's exclusion principle negate identical fermions from occupying the same timespace (spacetime?), it can be argued (as a paraphrase of the mentioned above), that bosons tend to follow the principle in reverse, i.e, tend to go through each other.

A laser pump uses this phenomenon to accelerate and charge photons to and over the coherence "barrier".

Wave Particle duality can be common-sensed just as well, if we consider particles as interactive force-fields. If not for any other reason, it's easier to "imagine" their behaviour this way.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 12:36 PM

if bosons can go through each other do you think they can carry information about the other side they came from

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Israel
Posts: 2968
Good Answers: 24
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 1:07 PM

If by 'information' you mean their quantum properties, then yes.

If the particle goes through a polarizer, and change it's plane, then it carries that change there on as it's own.

Of course, regarding this change, some theorise that it's not the same boson anymore but a new one "born", to replace the original one "swallowed" by the filter.

The same can be maintained about any type of excited atoms:

A photon swallowed by the atom to charge the outer-rim electron to a higher "orbit", the latter then rids of it's excess energy by spewing a "newborn" photon, with it's energy proportional to the energy of the original incoming photon. These, they say, are not the same photon, but a new one substituting the other.

I personally cannot make my own mind about it, but nevertheless favor the "substitution". It's more elegant, and "feels" right.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 1:41 PM

I think Bosons would be free to carry any kind of "information" that is not interactive with other Bosons. I think Bosons derive their ability to exist "superimposed" upon others simply because they have no "Spin". The Spin attribute gives an entity a "sidedness" or interactive relation with other "spin" objects on space. This pushes them apart or pulls them closer, but they are prevented from coalescing due to an unmatched fit in space-time at the plank scale.

I do not believe in "Particles". I think of everything in terms if Fields. To me, when we observe a particle "hitting" something, we are actually witnessing an interaction between fields, where the right conditions for interaction have just occurred at this unique point in space-time. The result is a redistribution of the combined energy in to alternative stable Fields. We notice this "point" of interaction and infer "particle" behavior.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Israel
Posts: 2968
Good Answers: 24
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 2:01 PM

...I do not believe in "Particles". I think of everything in terms if Fields...

I totally agree here. Particles are more like force-fields, than "substance" as such. It helps me visualise their quantum behaviour with much more ease. This way, effects are not "weird", and it all fits together nicely.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - Let's keep knowledge expanding Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North America, Earth
Posts: 4528
Good Answers: 106
#17
In reply to #13

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/28/2007 11:11 PM

Hi Ray8.

you said:"I do not believe in "Particles". I think of everything in terms if Fields."

I tend to agree and so, apparently does Einstein. Read the Einstein letters and the text that follows it in this link:

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-quantum-physics.htm

S

__________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” - Richard Feynman
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20
#15
In reply to #11

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 2:25 PM

then i was thinking if bosons carried info one might meet their twin in another universe further down or up the continuum and exchange thought throu a telepathic bosonic

thought transfer ..a theoretical form of a imaginary vulcan mind meld..

i know it sounds weird ,if you arent able to transport throught the bosonic field gate

field effect device transfer like...gate ,source, drain

yeah if matter could be compressed as a "bosonic signature filter" then rexpanded in the other spacetime dimension

could we build a star trek like transporter

also about fermions..

fermions which i think can not coexist in the same plane would could also maybe give us clues on time travel..assuming a simple bilinear nature with regards to entropy being discernable due to its thermodynamic signature

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, Ohio USA
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

03/27/2007 3:42 PM

I think you are drifting a bit here!

I think it's extremely constraining to expect another universe to be so tightly bound to ours as to maintain "twins" of anything. Nature is free-flowing, bounded only by simple rules of interaction which work to quickly complicate things.

If there are other universes, I think that by definition, they have no physical connection with ours. At most, they might share the same set of rules.

I think "Time Travel" is self- contradictory. Time is merely an "inferred" dimension, representing the fact that Nature is a cascade of events, each driven by the confluence of "prior" events whose Fields become locally coincident at points in space-time. The unpredictability of "events" that will show up at latter "points" in space-time implies that our Universe is locally indeterminate ...which certianly squashes any notion that some other universe could follow with its "twin".

Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: May 2007
Location: land of ahs...topeka....kansas
Posts: 4
#18

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

05/16/2007 2:02 PM

this explanation is well travelled....albeit with uncertainty a la heizenberg....similar to

the sound of the cracking tree in an empty forest devoid of ears....the crack in the

tree is visual proof that an event occurred....but the sound....was the sound actually

produced as there was no detection device to record or hear it....logic says the sound must have been created as the tree cracked....but

the final proof of hearing the sound is still missing.....

this analysis can be applied to the light fromstars that exploded light years ago and just now we see the light....logic says the light came from an exploding body....but the

final proof of seeing the explosion....alas....is missing.

__________________
no doors or windows necessary.....dividing by zero....of course!
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Quantum Mysteries Part 1: Wave-Particle Duality

05/21/2007 2:33 AM

kinda

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 19 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); ARTURO (1); EngX (2); HiTekRedNek (1); Hottech (3); pwallen (1); Ray8 (3); StandardsGuy (3); Yuval (3)

Previous in Forum: Starting a Colony on Mars   Next in Forum: Building Solar

Advertisement