ROI on Solar/Battery Systems

Can't help directly, but I Googled: Solar/Battery Systems payback period and got some hits.

I'd contact universities and suppliers for support. Someone will make a profit on this, I'd think they'd be glad to furnish supporting data.

On one part you are talking of ROI (Return On Investment) and another part green energy and you think that the NI batteries lasts 20 years!

Very good quality batteries can last 4-5 years at the most.

For any battery based system the cost of replacements will take the wind out of the sails.

There are dozens of sites at www.google.com giving concrete evidence that expense wise grid is distinctively cheaper to a battery based system.

More agreeable option available to you was to install a two way kWH meter, thus drawing power from the grid during night and consuming solar during day; ofcourse there are no batteries in this system.

Thank you for your comments - agreed that a battery array will indeed add a significant cost to the overall system, but this customer wants the option of going off-grid. Personally, I've researched the Ni Fe battery system a great deal over the last few months and what I've found is that they are the most rugged and durable storage available, good for possibly much longer than 20 years. They withstand over-charge and over-depletion far better than lead-acids or other types of batteries and produce far less hydrogen gases during charging cycles. There is a guy who treks around N. America buying up old Ni Fe's and has accumulated numerous Edison Ni Fe's from various sources that are still holding 80 - 100% of their charge some 50 years on. I don't know where you are sourcing your specific info on Ni Fe's but it appears to be contrary to everything I've come across so far?

Putting a claim on a publicity brochure is one thing but did really the battery manufacturer give you a Guarantee Certificate for a period of 20 years?

I am not actually buying them from the US firm that markets the Ni Fe batteries. They are available in China and Russia and it makes more sense to get them from one of these countries based on my location. Also the US company imports theirs from same source in China. The one system we've done over here so far (48 Kva) went with lead-acids so at this point I don't have direct purchase experience with suppliers of the Ni Fe battery. That's one reason I'm looking for case studies (along with ROI info) is to try and find operational systems using these batteries if possible - so far not an easy task.

When one reviews the history of NiFE batteries, one must ask why most prior manufacturers (including Exide) stopped making these around the mid 1970's. My personal opinion is that for most applications in those days, other options provided more cost-effective solutions. It would seem that these batteries would be ideal for a solar backup, especially in the tropics (maybe not so good in temperate climates), but, due to the manufacturing hiatus, it is doubtful you are going to find any real data regarding actual life expectancy. Especially since the primary sources for these batteries are now Chinese manufacturers, who tend to use marketing hype as technical literature.

Were the versions of these batteries currently available in the market able to demonstrate the reputed life expectancy in actual service, there would be a significant positive impact on the economics of solar power, and someone would get really, really rich. With so many parties having vested interest in making solar economically viable, why hasn't this taken off? I suspect there is more to the story than is being publicly disclosed- i.e., "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't."

I would be very, very interested were someone able to assuage my pessimism on this matter...

Very good points! I'm continuing to source for a definitive case study that is non-partisan enough to have some merit. Should I come across anything concrete I'll be sure to post it in this discussion. On the China hype, I'm afraid that's not even the case. The company manufacturing there supplies to military so they're not allowed to produce any marketing materials or attend trade shows - all sort of hush hush for some reason?

The ROI is dependent upon many things.

What is the cost of electricity there?

Google told me it is (it didn't specify delivery charges or taxes, etc.) :

What is your annual radiation for that region? Government websites will have the data.

What is your output and derate factors? Have you factored in the 1% loss/annum on the modules (80% at year 20 assuming Solaria is using industry standard) ?

Will all the power be used?

Every home is specific.

Note all the house-hold items that carry power. Yes, it should be explicit. I have seen plasma TVs rated to use nearly 3X the power of an LCD. This includes usage of items sitting in sleep-mode. Using the most effecient items can make significant reductions.

If you have a spreadsheet with these items and go over their usage with the client, you can work the math out together with them. That is the simplest way for them to be comfortable. Put in a 10%-20% buffer on usage with the client. If there is a connection fee and or line-upgrade from the local utility, it is factored against the cost in your calculations.

The following links won't give you all of your answers, but you may get a bit of use from them.

Retscreen will give you a place to start. http://www.retscreen.net/

Unfortunately for the following link, they used net-metering.

http://canmetenergy-canmetenergie.nrcan-rncan.gc.ca/fichier.php/codectec/Fr/2008-112/2008-112_OP-J_411-PVTZEH_EcoTerra.pdf

PVwatts is also fairly popular.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/

I know my way around solar.

Feel free to drop me a line.

dan@greensoldiers.ca

That was good work on the power rates for Bali! I know a lot of people on the ground here that can't find that info ... actually what you've quoted is the disincentive rate (sort of like the tier levels in California) where they charge a base rate of 869.00 IDR for power up to 4000 kwh and then you slide into the disincentive charge at 1,380 IDR. Recently though, they've reduced the base rate hours to below 1000 kwh so everyone is enjoying the premium price 4 times sooner these days. This has effectively doubled many villa owner's energy bills over the last few months. Thank you for the links - I'll spend some time with them over the weekend.

Dan, your recommendation to check out http://www.retscreen.net/ hit the jackpot. I would recommend any clean energy professional looking for a total project evaluation solution (worth probably $2,000 per customer if you had to buy it) to head straight there now and do the free download - you will not regret it! I will have earned a university degree by the time I get through it all, but what a magnificent job they've done on this software, database, training package and indispensable business tool. Sort of made me proud to be a Canadian . . . :)

Hello,

I can help you lot.

I can offer both Solar PV / Wind or Solar -Wind Hybrid and in bother Off-Grid / Grid Tie or combined configuration.

ROI depends on the Solar radiation / Wind Speed on the site.

I have excellent solution for Energy storage based on

1) Lithium batteries

2) Hydrogen

Have you considered other batteries available, like LiFePO4, large format Lithium Batteries.

LiFePO4, large format Lithium Batteries are safe and cost effective in long run.

Compared to Lead acid batteries, they have

1. Small Volume
2. Lower weight
3. Rated at 3 C discharge and 3 C Charge ( compare this lead acid battery with C / 10 discharge and c /10 charge)
   
4. Cycle life more that 2000 cycles at 100 % DOD (compare this with Lead acid having 180 cycles at 80% DOD)
   
5. Round trip Columbus efficiency more than 95% (Compare this with Lead Acid having less than 60%)
6. Lead is not environmentally friendly.
7. Totally maintenance free and do not need acid protective installation
   

The more advanced Lithium batteries with anode / cathode material with more advanced chemistry are tested for 20,000 cycle life and 60 C charge / 100 C discharge.

We are introducing large format batteries LiFePO4 battery based Electrical Energy storage solution for Mobile and stationary applications.

Please contact (sweetechnologies at gmail dot com) if you are interested in consultancy / equipment procurement etc

Regards

Madhav Chowdhary

SWEE Technologies

Pune City (India)

I did do some research on the LiFePO4 batteries - what I found was that they were roughly the same cost as the Ni Fe option. However, at 2000 cycles for a busy system in a villa, this only delivers about 5 - 7 years of service and then, the same expense all over again. Over 20+ years that would equate to 3 changes of batteries. If all the information about the Ni Fe batteries checks out, we're looking at a one-time investment in those along with the PV mods where both components will last through the 20 year targeted time-frame, still in relatively good shape. The inverters may need to be changed or reconditioned along the way but that would be it. I'm more than open to look again at the cost/benefit analysis of LiFePO4 if I got it wrong, but we are talking 1200 AH - 48V system for this villa and I'm not sure if that is in the ballpark for the LiFePO4s based on capacity and cost. I'm all ears if you have a solution that matches these specs and is as cost effective but my math says they aren't there yet.

Hello,

Some drawbacks about Ni-Fe batteries

==============

• Low coulombic efficiency, typically less than 65%
• High self discharge rate.
• More pronounced Hydrogen gassing than Nickel-Cadmium

===========

Round trip coulombic efficiency is very important factor for selecting LiFePO4 in Renewable Energy Applications.

Because Energy saved is energy generated.

Regards

Madhav Chowdhary

Thanks for your insightful comments - on the thermal runaway, yes, I've also learned that it's important to keep an eye on this. However, I've also found from many sources that the Ni Fe battery is quite able to handle over-charging and high DOD without incident. If you have more info on the over-charging issue in terms of gassing I'd really like to check this out?

Hi,

LiFePO4 cells are available to build batteries of any size.

Practical working life of LiFePO4 far exceeds 2000 cycle if the rate of charge / discharge is less than 3C.

The Lithium batteries with electrode material other than LiFePO4 have been tested and reported life of 20,000 cycles.

With availability of nano - material for Lithium battery electrodes, the cost will come down drastically.

Regards

Madhav Chowdhary

Hello,

While searching for information about Ni-Fe batteries, I found that

================

John I do not have any direct experience with them. I just know they have several characteristics that make them unsuitable for any application I would ever work with. Two more I did not mention is the large voltage difference between fully charged and discharged, and only 30 to 40% charge efficiency. Those two alone are enough to dismiss them from any practical installation I can think of. But to pile on is they have to be charged and discharged very slowly. I just cannot see any application for them

Apparently the inverter Thomas Edison did not see any real use for them when he invented them in 1900, because in 1914 they were discontinued in the USA and allowed the Patent to expire opening the door for anyone to make them.

=============

OK thanks for that I seem to have never taken any notice of them,ONE usa supplier seems to give them a "glowing" report .If the charge acceptance is only at best 40% then they really are useless to be charged by solar as in most instances you would need double the solar panel array compared to lead acid.

=============

Regards

Madhav Chowdhary

Thanks for the clip, but you have to wonder about the source of this opinion when he starts with 'I have no real experience with them' and concludes his post by calling Thomas Edison an 'inverter' - he also has his information quite mixed up - The Edison Company kept producing the batteries long into the 20th century and it was a very profitable venture for them. For the better part of it, they powered the fork lifts that ran all day long moving pallets around warehouses and charged overnight. Not that I don't appreciate the information - I do - but the source for this one seems a bit dubious.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml98/98059.html Company President Sentenced to Jail for CPSC Violations WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) announced today that John D'Angelo, owner and president of Utility Free Inc., a Colorado-based distributor of alternative energy products, was sentenced to nearly two years in jail for violating two laws enforced by CPSC. Mr. D'Angelo pled guilty to 15 counts of improperly shipping hazardous substances, including a highly corrosive, clear electrolyte solution. In December 1993, 15-year-old Justin Pulliam mistook the solution for water because Mr. D'Angelo had shipped it in a reused plastic one-gallon milk container that lacked appropriate warnings. The teenager drank it and died two weeks later from severe internal injuries. The Federal Hazardous Substances Act prohibits the shipment of hazardous substances in reused food containers and without proper warning labels that contain safety information. The Poison Prevention Packaging Act requires that certain chemicals be marketed in child-resistant packaging. Mr. D'Angelo violated both laws. His sentence is the longest jail time ever imposed for violations of laws enforced by CPSC. CPSC Chairman Ann Brown said, "These important federal laws are intended to prevent exactly the kind of tragedy that killed Justin. We will vigorously pursue everyone who flouts our laws and puts consumers at risk." Chairman Brown also noted that the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment first brought Mr. D'Angelo's violations to CPSC's attention. "This was a perfect example of how state and federal authorities working together can protect the public," she said. Mr. D'Angelo also shipped improperly labeled potassium hydroxide and lithium hydroxide in solid form. In addition, he kept selling the potassium hydroxide in non-child- resistant containers (plastic bags with twist-tie or resealable plastic bags), even after CPSC told him that such sales violated federal law. The U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado sentenced Mr. D'Angelo to 700 days in jail (approximately 23 months), to be followed by one year of supervised release, in the case of U.S. v. Utility Free Inc. and John D'Angelo (No. 97-CR-312).

Thanks again for more good info. I've gone back and forth with an electrical engineer associate of mine and we determined that given there are no recent test results that anyone can point to, we're going to go back in time and see what we can learn about the Ni Fe's from early 1900's to 1970, specifically their use in the forklifts. We plan to get as much data about the forklift motors in various models, the battery bank on-board, the number of hours of use before charging and what DOD they worked to, etc. If we can get all of that and verify it with guys who actually worked with these batteries I think it will be very telling. I'll come back to the forum as soon as we have anything worthwhile to share. Whether it's thumbs up or thumbs down it will all be posted here so that finally we can get some closure on this storage cell and know if it's up to the task for clean energy systems storage. It is important not only for me to know before I commit to a system for a client, but equally important for others who may drop in here looking for the same answers before they spend a lot of money on something that may or may not work for them.

Love to hear what you learn!

I am very much interested in the results of your research, because I face the same issues with ROI on solar systems. If one is looking at systems that do not depend on storage (hot water heaters, swimming pool pumps, some other intermittent pumping applications I have worked with), the ROI is quite reasonable. But throw storage requirements in to the mix, and it gets very, very hard to justify solar...

Hi,

The Round Trip Columbic efficiency of the Electrical Energy storage system decides wattage of the solar panels and hence the total cost of the system and ROI.

Lithium based batteries will be replacing all other batteries in time to come.

The time will prove which battery is good.

Regards.

Madhav Chowdhary

Mr. Chowdhary, thank you again for your input but your comments all appear to be rather marketing skewed - so I checked your history and indeed, nearly all your contributions on this site have been largely marketing motivated on everything from batteries to washing machine motors to land in India. I have been under the impression since joining this group a couple years back that those who are here and who respond to our questions do so in the spirit of sharing knowledge, not self-enrichment. You may be right, the Lithium based battery may emerge to be the leading storage solution down the road, however that is not the case presently and clearly not what I was asking (if you would care to check the original question) and your continued insistence on pushing your product here is really not that helpful.

Hello,

Whatever may be my purpose of posting the response.

Let me clear that I am not mfr of Lithium battery.

Today China is the biggest mfr / supplier of Lithium batteries, of all size / rating.

Lithium battery sector is growing and will not depend on if I sale the batteries or not.

Lithium based batteries are the clear winner, when it comes to Electrical Energy Storage Solutions.

Specifically the Round Trip Coulmbic Efficiency (more than 95%) of Lithium Batteries is what is getting overlooked while designing the electrical energy storage solution for off grid system.

Now whatever information I post about the Lithium batteries, this will help lots of people in Renewable Energy sector, by creating the awareness about the the need to consider the Round Trip Coulmbic Efficiency of the batteries, the different types of Lithium Batteries available to suite the different application starting from mobile phones to Grid Stabilization applications

Why the Lithium batteries have very high Round Trip Coulmbic Efficiency in comparison to other batteries is that, Lithium Batteries store the electrical energy by following different process than other batteries.

And most important is that the real potential of the lithium batteries, having electrode material based on nano technology is yet to be made available to the energy sector.

Regards

Madhav chowdhary

Pune (India)

I think you are right about NiFe cells - but that Wiki seems to be out of a "fan club" rather than 'facts' like cell voltage...

So "From Russia with Love"

http://www.accumkursk.ru

Никель–железный аккумулятор Nickel-iron battery
ТПНЖ–550М–У2 и батарея 46ТПНЖ-550М–У2 TPNZH-550-U2 and battery 46TPNZH-550-U2

Аккумулятор и батарея предназначены для работы в стартерном режиме для запуска дизеля тепловоза, Battery and battery designed to work in the starter mode to run the diesel engine,
а также для питания цепей управления, освещения и вспомогательных нагрузок при неработающем дизеле. as well as supply chain management, lighting and auxiliary loads at idle diesel.

Условные обозначения Symbols

цифры перед буквами–количество последовательно соединенных аккумуляторов в батарее; numbers before the letters, the number of series-connected batteries in the battery;

ТП - область применения (тепловозы); TP - scope (diesel);

НЖ - электрохимическая система (никель - железная); VAW - electrochemical system (nickel - iron);

цифра после букв- номинальная емкость (С 5 ), А ? digit after the letters of the nominal capacity (C 5), A? ч; h;

М- модернизированный; M-modernized;

У- климатическое исполнение; U-climatic performance;

2- категория размещения. 2 - installation category.

Конструкция аккумуляторов Design batteries

Аккумулятор состоит из положительных и отрицательных электродов, уложенных поочередно в блок и изолированных друг от друга сепаратором из гофрированного и перфорированного винипласта. Battery consists of positive and negative electrodes, arranged successively in a block and isolated from each other by a separator made of corrugated and perforated vinyl plastic. Блок электродов помещен в стальной бак. Block electrodes placed in a steel tank. Для защиты от коррозии бак покрыт щелочестойким лакокрасочным материалом. To protect against corrosion tank is covered by acids paints.

С целью обеспечения электрической изоляции аккумуляторов друг от друга и от батарейного ящика на каждый аккумулятор надет чехол. In order to ensure electrical isolation from one another battery and the battery box on each battery cover is put on.

Электрическое сопротивление изоляции аккумулятора должно быть не менее 1,5 МОм. Electrical insulation resistance of the battery must be at least 1.5 MW.

Положительные и отрицательные электроды состоят из ламелей, соединенных между собой в замок и укрепленных с обеих сторон стальными ребрами. Positive and negative electrodes consist of lamellae, interconnected in a castle and fortified on both sides by steel ribs. К ребрам приварены контактные планки. To contact the edges of welded plates. Электроды через контактные планки соединяются между собой с помощью шпильки, промежуточных колец и стягивающих гаек. Electrodes through the contact strips are interconnected by hairpin intermediate rings and tightening nuts.

Каждый аккумулятор имеет по четыре борна, которые выведены через отверстия крышки бака и изолированы от нее пластмассовыми кольцами, втулками и резиновыми кольцами, которые собраны в герметичный узел, препятствующий вытеканию электролита из аккумулятора. Each battery has four Bourne, which are derived through the holes in the tank lid and insulated from it with plastic rings, sleeves and rubber rings, which are assembled into a sealed unit that prevents leakage of electrolyte from the battery.

В качестве электролита в аккумуляторах применяют водный раствор едкого калия с добавкой (20 + 1) г/л гидрата окиси лития. The electrolyte in the batteries used an aqueous solution of potassium hydroxide with additives (20 + 1) g / l of lithium hydroxide.

Технические характеристики Specifications

Основные технические характеристики изделий приведены в таблицах 1 и 2. Main technical specifications of the products listed in Tables 1 and 2.

Таблица 1 Table 1

Таблица 2 Table 2

Примечание – Напряжение батареи в таблицах 1 и 2 указано с учетом падения напряжения в перемычках, которое составляет не более 2%. Note - The battery voltage in Tables 1 and 2 are specified taking into account the voltage drop in the bridge, which is less than 2%.

Номинальная емкость аккумулятора (батареи) при 5-часовом режиме разряда током Nominal battery capacity (battery) with a 5-hour mode discharge current
0,2С 5 А и температуре окружающей среды (20+5) С должна быть достигнута не позднее 0.2 C 5 A and ambient temperature (20 +5) C must be achieved no later than
6 цикла. 6 cycles.

Заряженный аккумулятор (батарея) должны выдерживать 15 условных запусков стартерным режимом разряда токами I и II ступеней с интервалом между ними 1-2 мин. Charged battery (battery) shall be able to launch 15 conventional starter mode of the discharge currents I and II levels with an interval between 1-2 minutes.

Емкость аккумулятора (батареи) после хранения в заряженном состоянии в течение Battery capacity (battery) after storage in a charged state during the
30 суток при температуре окружающей среды (20 + 5) С и разряженных током (110 + 3) А должна быть не менее 82,0 А . 30 days at ambient temperature (20 + 5) C and discharged current (110 + 3) A must be not less than 82.0 A. ч. h.

Гарантийный срок хранения аккумуляторов и батарей - 2,5 года с момента их изготовления. Guaranteed shelf life of batteries - 2,5 years from the date of manufacture.

Гарантийный срок эксплуатации аккумуляторов и батарей - 3 года с момента ввода их в эксплуатацию (по режиму запуска дизеля). Guaranteed service life of batteries - 3 years from the date of entry into service (in terms of running diesel).

It's interesting isn't it - I went to the BeUtilityFree site again (been a long time since I saw that one) and just poked around a bit to see if any new info had been posted. Mostly I discovered that not much has been added since 2008 - the blog entries by John there trail off at that point and also the only dated customer testimonials I saw were 2005 - 2006. Also there wasn't any direct reference by customers to the Ni Fe's but more about other stuff they'd done with John. Thanks for letting us in on the Russian side of this search for answers on Ni Fe efficacy - reading the bits you cut and pasted from their site were a bit confusing so I visited the site to see if I could make more sense of things there - sadly it's pretty much the same but at least with the Google Russian to English tool employed it did make some of the reading a little easier sledding. I still can't say I have a handle on a lot of what they are stating, but I'm going back in for another round. Will keep you posted . . .

Not much new since Thomas "co-invented it" - (read stole)

But; EaglePicher Corp.

Private Company, Headquarters Location

2424 John Daly Rd., Inkster, MI 48141-2453, United States(313)278-5956, (313)278-5982 fax, http://www.eaglepicher.com

Did produce the cells in 60 -70's and may still do - or have data sheets of use.

You can also have a go at emailing

for data sheets (and/or Ruskies above).

In ROI "On Topic" - Batteries are the big 'depreciation'.

I have PV's 15⁺ years old with no insignificant performance drop and inverters "good as new" (similar age - constant service).

Bar naive installation (there are some 'tricks' - aside from general stupidity on the power of mother nature) - "outgoings and maintenance" is all battery $'s.

One thing you may need to factor in, in the PV sums, is they are rated at -4⁰C, or won't yield the rated output in Bali's ~30⁰C.

Great information - thank you! I will check in with Eagle Picher and see if they can shed some light on a few issues. Zhuhai Sanchuan I'm already in contact with but as I mentioned in an earlier post, they have very limited information and the stuff they did send me was thread bare at best. Noted also on the PV sums - important consideration that I'll keep in mind. Regarding your system, what type of batteries are you using and if you can spare a moment, what type of duty cycle are they on? Also how often have you had to replace them?

Initially I used 2nd hand AlCad's - the best of which are still in service (16 years), comprising "bank A". "Bank B" is lead acid.

As PV is a 'natural' constant current 8 hour charger, the banks are alternately charged then 'used'. As opposed to 'charged whilst in use'. This "split system" is a little more complex than the conventional setup, but means charge rates are not interfered with by inverter load diverting current to demand.

Lead acids have a "useful life" of around 5 years, or the 'cost' of the stored Watt between types would have run out in favour of AlCad on life. AlCad's are now frowned upon (& quite rightly)

All this is why I said I think NiFe well worth the look.

However batteries sitting up on full charge use water.

So one thing you should 'build in' to your system/costing/infrastructure, is water distillation.

None of these batteries like impurities - and topping up is a regular activity that can use a surprising amount of water in a big system.

If they 'cheat' because buying it costs - they can kill an entire bank.

"Demineralized water" as now sold for lead acids - may or may not be suitable for Nife (or be more than the demineralized label over there)

Another thing you need to 'build in' is what to do with surplus power - i.e. if you are designing to maximum demand, you will have regular large surpluses, requiring 'dumping'.

Again, very useful information and much to think about. Regarding water usage, I've seen some information about special caps that capture the water produced during charge cycles and return it to the cell - this looks like it may be a worthwhile option if water replacement costs are that much of a factor. On the surplus power generated, we don't have net metering available here as yet so that is not an option. This is an off-grid installation anyway so unless they can hook up a neighbor or two direct, not that many options for excess power. One possibility might be a hydroxy converter that stores low-pressure hydrogen for use in heating apps or back to electric power later when demand is high. Have you heard of any promising reports for this type of conversion/storage?

ROI it's depend from where You looking at.

it's mean You compare the ROI by what, if You compare by diesel generator at same rating power, as my experience at renewable power plant it will have ROI at 10 - 15 years. but with some condition ; all of your equipment have good efficiency, good technician, good quality, good warranty, and etc.

all your money spend at the first payment to buy all of solar power + hybrid wind energy equipment, it is will pay back at 10 - 12 years if compare by all of your money to use diesel generator at same duration time.

for next 5 - 10 years you will have almost free bill at your power plant.

if you compare by price of electricity at indonesia / Kilo watt hours, it will have ROI more than 100 years. in indonesia price / kilo watt hours about 0.2 US $.

i have some study for this ROI at indonesian country. an contingency i live in jakarta indonesia. and i work at the small green company. and i am at R & D team.

my last prospective customer ask me the ROI at 7 years, but i said it is impossible at this present time.

my customer load 20 kilo watt per hours

peak load 40 kilo watt per hours

this present time they use 2 X 80 KVA diesel generator

and my last solar power plant price, at 800.000 US$, ROI 10 years

but my customer ask me the price at ROI 7 years. and still at bargain process.

sautsyafrudin@yaoo.co.id

Interesting post - but I wonder about your pricing for PLN in Indonesia. Prices have been hiked in Bali a few times (thru various methods) in the past couple years and now sit at 869.00 IDR/kwh for basic rate (now only 1000 kwh allowance) and after that a disincentive rate of 1,380.00 IDR/kwh which really jacks up the monthly bills. I have customers here in small hotels who are looking down the barrel of a 60 million IDR bill every month! So, looking at it in USD the rates come to roughly 9.5 cents base rate and 15 cents disincentive rate. That should significantly alter the 100 year R.O.I. projection don't you think?

Dear Regworth

i don't know that You already solve the problem or not. in my experience that i done feasible studies of green energy, this green energy can not head to head compare by PLN price/KWH.

as i have said before this green energy only can be compare by solar diesel generator. so, if You compare by price of PLN at 1.380 IDR/KWH, it wont feasible to ask when or what value is ROI.

i am not economic man, and i am not business man so what is ROI or BEP, i only can make system of green energy more effective and more economic and more feasible price.

because indonesian electrical policy didn't have any regulation at selling power back to PLN, so You can not hope the green energy can compare head to head by PLN pricing.

my suggest if You want to still use green energy by some reasons :

1. use hybrid with wind energy if wind speed at Your area is feasible to use wind energy. first investment /KWH produce by wind energy cheaper than solar panel.

2. use wind energy at very low start-up wind speed at custom blade

3. use very high voltage dc system to reduce cable losses. but it have high risk of electricity shock. minimum i use 440 VDC input for inverter

4. use tracking system for solar panel, reduce total cost minimum 10%

5. use very high efficiency factor at all of Your equipment, i use minimum 97%

6. for price reasons i only use Maintenance Free battery at deep cycle type, but at my system this battery must have life at 8 years minimum. because i treat the battery carefully. i use special system at my battery charger.

sautsyafrudin@yahoo.co.id

@ saut syafrudin - Comments on your points:

1) Small wind of the common type is pure junk - only if one has very good winds and starts with a machine such as Jacobs or equivalent do you have a chance

2) Low start-up speed for a wind turbine is sales talk - nothing more. As there is no power in a 2 meters/second wind anyway. Less that something like 5 m/s winds are useless

4) Tracking systems will not reduce system cost - if they are good they are costly affairs. Almost always it is better to use the money for additional panels.

5) High efficiency factor - You use minimum 97%? Kind of a meaningless statement - the system will never reach 97% and very few individual components do. For a battery based system you will most likely be at 50 to 55% overall.

Dear russ 123

for number 1 and 2.

i agree with You. one system will feasible if have good plan. as i said if wind speed at the area good enough You must use wind energy. i don't said it must use some branded. i think professional engineering who play in the green energy system will not use junk wind generator, they will know how to choice wind generator system for the area will use this wind generator. and they know what branded at good price but good quality. it is really expensive thing, so it won't use amateur engineering to decide wind generator at : type ( VAWT or HAWT ), the HIGHEST wind generator power rated for the estimated daily are wind speed at tower height.

ABOUT TRACKING SYSTEM.

i agree again with You. as i know good branded solar tracking very expensive price, so i custom by my self, use local content (indonesian market) for indonesian customer too, because bali in indonesia so it will have good price. i make my own solar tracking, and it will reduce cost minimum 10%. and it will feasible and effective and efficient if the renewable power plant will make more than 20KW/HOURS (AVERAGE LOAD). NO SOLAR TRACKING, SUN HOURS AT 3.5 HOURS TO 4 HOURS. USE SOLAR TRACKING MINIMUM SUN HOURS AT 5 HOURS. once again it will need good and professional engineering.

ABOUT HIGH EFFICIENT.

i think, when we will buy equipment we will read specifications first. lets say inverter. there is three choice branded of inverter. at average price range, same power rated, same manufacture country, same class range, and there is branded X at biggest efficiency but little bit expensive i will choice this X branded. different 2 % the efficiency at rated power 20KW average load. it will save energy around 3,8 MW / YEARS. big value for only 2 % different efficiency of inverter, for little bit expensive price at inverter. so if there is inverter at efficiency 94%, 95%, and the last at 97% but a little bit expensive i think i will choice this one. as i know average efficiency good branded inverter at this efficiency.

in the renewable power plant, the most expensive investment i think : solar panel, battery storage, wind generator. and the battery is the one thing must replace periodical. once again if the engineering well known the characteristic / behavior of battery they use, how to treat them, how to use them, how to care them. standard deep cycle battery is worth choice i thing. from performance to price and estimated life-span. at my system design it must no replace for first 5years. and my expectation of these battery is minimum 8years.

1. in the renewable energy, THE EFFICIENCY IS THE MAIN THING.

2. ROI or BEP for renewable energy power plant not feasible if compare by local electricity pricing specially in indonesian country.

3. at this present, renewable power plant is needs when local electricity can not reach the area.

4. renewable power plant only feasible if compare by solar diesel generator.

thanks

@ saut syafrudin

Just a note on efficiency - even buying the most efficient inverter etc the system efficiency for power consumed from the battery bank will be in the 50 to 55% range.

I have yet to see or read about a VAWT that is anything but a failure.

As you point out - the higher the tower the better for wind power. This is one reason of many that VAWT turbines are unable to do much.

I suppose import duties are a problem for you there as they are here. Between duties and greedy importers costs can go sky high.

I am not in solar Power. I manufacture nano / micro Steam Turbine Generators - not meant for this discussion. You can email to mizunorc at ymail dotcom to discuss the following.

For your hotels in Bali or any place, I can supply Binary Cycle Power Generation System. As on date i have developed 3 7 10 KWH using biomass a the fuel in one cycle.

A 3 KWH unit consumes 87 gm of biomass per hour and 10 KWH unit rerquires 270 gm of biomass per hour.

Mizun

A guy in Victoria BC has experience with the Chinese Nickel iron batteries.

Here is the second part of his talk about them.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ideawavevideos#p/u/2/RrGCzYLw7Bs

He has some experience with them with solar. He uses them in his boat too.

Great link, with a mention of his web site at http://nickel-iron-battery.com/

which offers the beginnings of some valuable technical information on these batteries. Unfortunately, following further links to http://www.zappworks.com/

(North American manufacturer of these batteries) will illustrate a primary limitation of this technology, i.e., cost. $512-1316/kW, as compared to something on the order of $320/kW (local data- prices may vary significantly depending on geographic location) for top of the line lead-acid batteries. Of course, this difference appears to disappear after the first lead-acid battery replacement cycle (which I have found from experience to be less than 5 years in real world applications, contrary to industry claims of 10 years or more. Most people either haven't the knowledge or the motivation to properly maintain a lead-acid battery bank to maximize life). Nickel-iron technology would seem to overcome the maintenance issues...

Thanks. I know the guy (just a little) and I had an invite to see his system last year. Maybe he will still let me look.

Anyway, he works at a university, does private electronic engineering too, is big into ham radio and has several patents. I have heard him described as "scary smart"

so I am pretty sure he know what he is talking about.

I do not know how long he has had the batteries.

I worry about modern plastics degrading if light gets at it, etc. However if the main customer for one type is the Chinese Military that is probably a good sign.

Normally stuff for military use is over engineered. I think the big advantage of that type of batteries is how rough you can treat them. So if you live in the middle of nowhere, having something that only needs replacing every 20 or 30 years as opposed to every 5 might make a difference.

Hi cwarner7_11, good point about the price - it would be great if somebody could come up with a manufacturing process that would bring the initial investment for these down out of the stratosphere! However, as you point out, when you look at the long-term picture a lead-acid system under ideal conditions will need replacement batteries at least 4 times over the life of the Ni Fe's and probably many more given that quite a bit of information indicates the Ni Fe batteries, if maintained properly, can last well past the 20 year mark. The company I've been liaising with in China is a direct supplier for the military and as such, they are not allowed to produce any marketing materials so it's difficult to get much in the way of useful information from them - but people like Ian who have made the leap are good indicators of what this technology can do and hopefully with a greater take-up in the market, prices may begin to drop a bit with larger volumes. Let's see . . .

Hi Gaiatechnician, I was in contact with Ian a few times earlier in the year - very good guy who cares a lot about what he's doing and a credible source for information on this and other technologies. I had not, however, seen the YouTube links prior to you bringing them to this forum's attention so thank you for this very useful reference!