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Changing Power Assisted Steering

06/06/2011 6:36 AM

Good day everyone.

Heres what i have.. An old fork lift truck with Power assisted steering ZF box that is knackered. The plan is to throw out the old box completely. Build a new column with an Orbital valve and fit in a ram and re route the hoses and thereby the flow..

The original steering pump is only pushing out 69 bar. The main pump is pushing out 150 bar.

The mobile lever valve is an open centred unit. Therfore to operate anything the lever has to be pulled to divert the oil flow to the required function. Otherwise the pump shows no pressure as it is dumping straight back to tank.

My question is this.

Can i divert the flow of oil from the pump straight to the Orbital valve pressure port, therefore having the benefit of the full pressure in the steering, and with the tank port then connected to the inlet on the mobline lever vavle , then it can dump back to tank but retaining the pressure for steering?

This to me make sense in my little brain. as then you have prioritised the the flow for steering and making the mobile lever valve secondary and can have the flow and pressure after the steering has used it up. If you know what i mean.

Secondly having diverted the oil flow/pressure in this way would when you operate the lever valve will this cause the steering valve to lock up as the oil will then be being used for another function? thereby not dumping back to tank!

Would you be inclined to fit a relief valve between the tank port on the steering valve and the inlet on the mobile lever valve?

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#1

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 8:20 AM

I would rebuild the old box or find an identical replacement.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but, based on my own experience, whenever I attempt to re-engineer something from the original, it almost never works as well I imagined it would.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 10:12 AM

Well When you don't have the option of rebuilding it as there are not parts made for it and the second hand option is not very good either as you could be buying the same problem again. And that second hand option is £3500.. then you do tend to think outside the box.

Its not just an ordinary plain simple steering box either. Or that would have been too easy.

It is also dependant on how much re-engineering you would be prepared to do. And so far with the parts and my labour its just under 1/3rd the second hand option price..Cosidering that the machine is not worth more than £5000 either..

I may as well have some fun with it and learn

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 3:01 PM

I would be very reluctant to use to the same pump that is used for the lifting ram(s) as any catastrophic failure in the steering system could lead to complete system pressure loss, leading to a deadly situation with any load suspended on the forks!

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 3:14 PM

dj has a point. I wonder if you could find a used power steering unit at a scrap yard. I'm thinking something out of a later model car or truck that had been wrecked, and getting that to fit.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 4:04 PM

I guess you don't really know how a fork lift truck is built. You can't just fit any steering box from a car or truck! Firstly it is solidly bolted into a frame that is part of the welded structure..So either you have the exact part or you completely change it. In the event of a hose failure on lift rams you have check valves that shut in that event. If i am not mistaken many newer forklift trucks have one pump. To service multiple functions.

To be honest i think i may have posted this in completely the wrong forum as i am looking for people that are in or work with Hydraulic systems.

I have been down that road of a second hand unit but obviously as there are "NONE" available and "SPARES" are no "LONGER" made this is not an OPTION.

But thank you both kindly for answering my question..

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 5:27 PM

I can understand your frustrations, I've worked with several different Hydraulic systems and I have worked on fork lifts and they can be a bitch to work on,(lack space or room). And your right, there are more modern systems that do use a single pump for various systems, But, they also have the safe guards built in for catastrophic failures. So with that, I'll stand with my my caution and wish you good luck with your project. DJ

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/06/2011 7:57 PM

See post below, I design Hydraulic systems for a living.

CR4 IS the right place, but some of us are a bit slow getting around, and require a bit of patience. I think you might be surprised at the level of expertise in a huge array of fields that can be found here on CR4.

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/07/2011 7:19 AM

He was right. I don't know forklift/hydrolic design. But I do know about the many times I've experienced unintended consequences from attempting to modify things from their original. I've learned many times that the original design is the best, and try to stick to it, if at all possible. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Thanks for the great explanation in your other post.

There are places that do power steering component rebuilds, even on older units. I would make sure to exhaust all possibilities before venturing into re-engineering the original configuration.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Changing Power assisted steering

06/07/2011 7:54 AM

Something like this could save a lot of trouble..............just my opinion.

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#7

Re: Changing Power Assisted Steering

06/06/2011 7:05 PM

What you propose is possible with the right considerations. First off, I'll tell you that without knowing the specifics of the equipment already installed, and the specifics of the equipment you plan to install a reliable answer cannot be given. The design of this type of system should be looked over by a qualified Hydraulics specialist. Good people are killed mis-using hydraulic systems every day.

First, you need to ensure you can supply the proper flow/pressure to run ALL functions simultaneously at full volume with the single pump. Check this first.

Second, Any time you can add a relief valve to your system, the better off you will be in the event of a failure. You should add this relief valve (probably came installed from factory) just after the pump, and set this to divert flow back to tank in the case of a problem down the line in the system causing over-pressurization.

Third, You should never consider the counterbalance or check valves which are inline with your cylinders to provide any function other than a last resort "in case of failure" safety function, and they will only provide a safety function if you don't rupture a hose or fitting on the cylinder side of the valve. Do not rely on these to hold your load in an operational setting.

You WILL have pressure drops across each component in your system, it is mandatory to include these into your calculations when choosing components.

It is not advisable to connect your control valves in series, you should plumb these in parallel to the pump, with a pump fully capable of running both (or all) functions at full pressure/flow at the same time.

Your steering valve is a proportional valve correct? If not, you cannot achieve proper steering capabilities as the valve will either be full on or full off. Proportional valves provide increased flow proportional to the input value for smooth operation of things such as drive wheels, steering rams etc.

If you plumb your steering valve ahead of your lift valve you will see erratic behavior in one function while operating the other. This can be a dangerous situation when holding a load, the forklift will become a dangerous piece of machinery. Do not do this.

ALL the oil WILL always go back to tank (unless it's leaking onto the ground), where else would it go?

What you propose can be done, but the time, engineering, and labor to achieve the proposed project may go above and beyond your project budget. Another thing to consider, is that after spending all this time and money on this project, it might not work as planned if you did not have a competent Engineer in the hydraulics field check your calculations.

Think you MUST know BEFORE starting your project:

1. What is your fluid? Viscosity? ambient operating temperatures?

2. What is the required flow for ALL components in the system? IE how much oil will your steering cylinder require to fully extend? How fast do you want this to happen? Lift cylinders? drive wheels? etc etc etc. (assume they will all be running at once)

3. What is the required pressure for each component, including pressure drops?

Questions you should ask yourself:

Are you able to calculate all these things properly?

Do you know someone who specializes in hydraulics from which you can get some help?

Is there any chance someone could possibly get hurt or killed due to a faulty controls system on this forklift? (I'll answer that one for you) Answer: YES, there absolutely is.

If this is not done correctly, and someone gets hurt/killed, the responsibility of that persons injuries will fall on the individual who modified the forklift from it's stock condition. That person will be you.

If you understand all these things, and can acquire some professional help, then you have yourself a project. If you cannot get some competent help on this project, I must advise you to stop all forward momentum on this project until said help can be arranged.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Changing Power Assisted Steering

06/06/2011 11:17 PM

GA from me RVZ717, unfortunately I haven't had the time today to spell it out and I still don't. Being the OP haven't given all the necessary spec's and a plumbing schematic, you covered the main points and the CYA's. DJ

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#10

Re: Changing Power Assisted Steering

06/07/2011 4:31 AM

Yes you can do it by fitting a Priority valve between the pump and the directional valve and the steering unit. It is not a job for the uninitiated, go to Danfoss or Eaton distributor and ask them to advise you. Selection of a priority valve and orbitrol steering unit is an expert job.

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Oliver Dunthorne

Hydraulic Engineer

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Changing Power Assisted Steering

06/07/2011 4:39 AM

Good Morning Oliver,

Thankyou very much for you most valued input. I have since contacted Sauer-Danfoss. This was my thinking of having a priority valve inline. I am just waiting on the delivery of parts. I wanted to test my theory out here to see if my thinking was right..

Kind regards

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dj95401 (3); kramarat (4); Oliver Dunthorne (1); RVZ717 (2); taurus66 (3)

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