Previous in Forum: Fuel System   Next in Forum: Girth Gear RCFA's
Close
Close
Close
5 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 29

Sealing

09/16/2011 6:25 PM

I am developing a project and came across two possibilities (see figure):

1 - top seal (by rubber), mean diameter of 8.2 mm.
2 - side seal (by O-ring), diameter of 6.5 mm

The air pressure is p = 12.4 N/mm2.

Initially I estimated that the force F to release the pressure from the system would be F = p. A:

1 - F = 12.4 N/mm2 3.1416 x 8.2 x ^ 2 / 4 = 655 N
2 - F = 12.4 N/mm2 3.1416 x 6.5 x ^ 2 / 4 = 411 N

I did some tests on prototypes and I found:

1 - F = 192 N (- 71%)
2 - F = 590 N (+ 44%)

Could anyone tell me why the values ​​were so different from what I expected?

thanks

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Anonymous Poster #1
#1

Re: Sealing

09/17/2011 2:36 AM

this is only a "seat of the pants"answer.from my experience, the o-ring will be sealed thoughout the pressure cycles, whereas the seat seal can only be closed by a spring. i'ld go with the o-ring.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3943
Good Answers: 183
#2

Re: Sealing

09/17/2011 4:35 AM

You measured the force by pushing down. You should think that the O-ring has a lateral friction which is quite -relatively - important especially for small dimensions. This friction depends NOT only on the pressure but also on the PRE-LOAD due to the radial seal compression! Why it is higher at small diameters ? Because the friction is proportional to the diameter and the pressure force with the cross area. Ffr= PI* D*(p+p0)*h*µ and the pressure force is Fp= PI/4*d²*p thus Ffr/Fp= 4*h*µ*(1+po/p)/D. The higher D the smaller the ratio since h is proportional to the ring diameter "d" and the compression in the grove.

I hope I gave the right answer to your question, as for the solution the choice can depnd on sevral factors and this youare the only one to know which fits the best.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 116
Good Answers: 4
#3

Re: Sealing

09/18/2011 4:58 AM

Hi,

The answer is the different areas. However the method 1 will not suffer from any friction losses with the seal whereas method 2, the 'O' ring will have frictional losses so in the end the forces may well be very similar.

Regards

Oliver Dunthorne

Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3943
Good Answers: 183
#4

Re: Sealing

09/18/2011 12:22 PM

Considering the scarce information you got I wanted to explain in detail and I made a few computations to give you values.

First of all you have to take into account that when an O-ring is its grove it is compressed and thus a force between the O-ring and the wall appears. In th Parker catalogue you can find specific value in N/cm as function of compression degree and compound Shore hardness.

A second point to consider is how the ring deforms under pressure. Following picture shows an O-ring in its grove under pressure (in your drawing you figured an O-ring in its grove BUT in absence of pressure).

When under pressure the O-ring TRANSMITS the pressure to its contact surfaces. In your assembly it will apply a force to the hole wall which is proportional to the applied pressure "p" and the area of this surface A= π*d4*b. The force you measured is the sum of the pressure force Fp= π/4*d4^2*p and the friction force which is Ffr= µ*(A*p+F1*π*d4) where F1 is the specific compression force I mentioned above.

You used -I assume- the O-ring 3.68x1.78 so that I made the computations accordingly. Since I did not have an information about the Sh values I presumed further that you used either HSh 80 or HSh 90 but most probably due to the pressure HSh90 to reduce the extrusion risk.

The results are in following pictures :

The values for the friction coefficients are from same document and are 0.3 for a waiting time of 1 minute and 0.4 for 1 hour.

As you see the 590 N are in the middle of the field for HSh 90 and µ=0.4. The horizontal scale is the compression as (d-h)/d. If the d value was almost at highest value it could have been possible that the O-ring had 80 Shore. In fact all hardness values are average since from the process deviations as high as 5 to 10 Shore can occur.

I hope this explanation is what you expected.

From my own experience I had when I designed a pressure sensitive by-pass to feel how important is this computation and how sensitive the small diameters are to the different "hidden" force and associated friction.

If you need something more please ask.

With respect to the other case I have to know how you made the measurement and how high was the sampling rate for the acquisition since you had to record a very short in time force peak and if the sampling rate was too small you measured AFTER it opened and since the pressure can fall very quick the result was lower than expected.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 29
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Sealing

09/19/2011 4:58 PM

Nickname,

I thank you for your excellent explanation and from now on I shall consider the o-ring friction force on my projects.

Really o-ring hardness is 80 but its I.D. is 2.90.

The load application on the test was done with adding of masses in a lever arm of known distances, and after the axial force component, which caused the activation of system, was determined using FEA.

I'll repeat the test on the top seal (case 1) also applying the load directly on the shaft to check if the value is in fact 192 N.

Again, thanks for the help

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 5 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Apprentice-1 (1); nick name (2); Oliver Dunthorne (1)

Previous in Forum: Fuel System   Next in Forum: Girth Gear RCFA's

Advertisement