Fork Lift Traction on Pavement

This isn't really an idea based on experience, it's based on a different thought process that you may have already gone through, but have you looked at using different tires on the forklifts?

I would just use sand....

You have the beginning of my thought. Paint the floor with epoxy paint. Before the first coat cures add sand to the surface. Then after curing seal the sand in with a second thin coat. It won't be a permanent fix that will outlast the pyramids but it should last awhile.

A place I worked at had a similar problem years ago. The simplest solution was to just periodically remove the grime with a good pressure washing.

Some days cleanliness does actually improve working speed and efficiency.

(But you didn't hear it from me.)

The other thing to consider is the surface of the concrete. Smooth polished concrete looks very nice but it is in fact a considerable work hazard in anything but the driest of conditions. A rough brushed texture surface is far more favorable in a commercial or industrial work environment where spills of unknown liquids and high traffic are prevalent.

The WalMart warehouse that I worked at in Missouri while in college did this, but they used a small street sweeper. They also used this sweeper to clean the isleways in the warehouse daily.

"I have a warehouse here in the Southern US that has a traction problem............" You might try a new method......

I agree with PMoon

I worked at a gear manufacturing plant years ago.

The final stop for the gears before the loading dock was the Luberizor.

Basically a hot acid dip and a hot oil bath to prevent the gears from corroding during shipping.

These bins of gears would get loaded onto the trucks dripping with Luberizor oil which would accumulate on the dock making it slick like an ice skating rink.

We tried pressure washing, oil dry, sand epoxy, and absorbent pads on the loading dock to no avail.

The only useful fix was changing the bald fork lift tires with new ones that had treads.

PMoon--We have several different types of tires. Some slip more or less. None are safe.

SolarEagle--See Below...

redfred--We have tried several variations of this. Any epoxy only lasts a few days or weeks. I would prefer a solution that lasted several years.

kramarat--Thank you, but not nearly course enough.

tcmtech--This may be the best solution in the short term. Still looking for a more permanent solution.

Anonymous Poster #1--Smirk.

KJK/USA--No luck so far with different treads

-A-

You can have it sandblasted to whatever coarseness you want.

I just used this site for the picture.

http://www.oceanrestorations.com/restoration-concrete-texturing.htm

I agree, sandblasting can be done very quickly. Alternately, a 3000 PSI or more water washer will roughen the concrete too.

A few days or weeks you say with epoxy sand. That implies to me that you're doing some very heavy volume off of your loading dock. I think then that a cost/benefit analysis of the aircraft carrier grade coating even with an expense of $90k will be a bargain compared to the expenses of liability and down time from repairs to lesser surfaces and accidents.

The only alternative I see requires a knowledge of what is coating the loading dock surface. I don't see just a morning dew of moisture turning into a slick, hazardous surface. Maybe your fork lifts are leaking a fine spray of oil or coolant?

The $90k alternative is talked up by the salesman, but I fear it may not last much longer than the epoxy paint and grit. The only way to know for sure how long it will last is to do it, or talk to someone who has, hence the reason I asked you lunks.

As for not understanding how slick it can get, talk to a fork truck driver. Maybe you need to talk to a fork truck driver from the SOUTH! It gets a bit sticky down here.

-A-

What's with the attitude?

Obviously when things get damp on your loading dock, things get slick. Talking to one of your fork lift drivers will not tell me you or anything more than that. I suspect that this may not be just because of water on your surfaces but possibly water and something else. Maybe this added substance comes from the fork lifts themselves. Maybe it comes from residue from your cleaning crew's cleaners. Then again it might be bird or other animal droppings that happens during off hours.

If it was just water on a surface that made things too slick, then fork truck drivers would have trouble getting to work on the slick roads. So there must be something making a traction difference between the roads and your loading dock. I don't know what the difference is, I'm just trying to suggest a few things you may have overlooked.

I'm where water freezes to make black ice on the roads. So don't tell me about how slick things get on a foggy day.

My sincerest apologies for not using emoticons.

Please know that I meant no offence. I really should have used a wink or a nudge or something to let you know I was just ribbing you a little. I really am sorry for coming across like a yankee.

I understand your point regarding a foreign material obviously being present other than water. I know from personal experience, and having spoken to many other people from this area, that warehouse floors all develop the same surface condition when the humidity is at or above 100%. Fine talc is as slick as black ice when it is wet. Tire dust, dust from outside repeatedly driven over by fork trucks, these are likely suspects. Down here the concrete will wick moisture up out of the ground. When the conditions are right, you can count on 120,000 ft^2 of slick a$$ $hit.

Whatever the reason, I'm still looking for a solution.

I really do honestly appreciate your input, and I apologize again for the offence.

-A-

Given that you probably have to acid etch to get any coating to stick - which may be why sand epoxy didn't last - why not try just a heavy etch?

Traction is after all about breaking the film. Micro gaps in the concrete give it somewhere to go.

Go too course and it will just generate tyre rubber beads and like a race track 'off the line', will be 'a skating rink'.

I.e. your base problem is lovely smooth steel troweled finish.

Address that first.

In addition:

If moisture is wicking out of the concrete, it likely means that a moisture barrier wasn't put down before the concrete was poured. I do have experience with this, and I can guarantee that any coating that is put down will fail. That leaves etching or sandblasting. A coating will not stop moisture from coming from underneath for long..........................it will peel off in sheets.

First you need to determine how the moisture is getting there.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5242843_concrete-floor-sweat_.html

Really? OK, well we are on the Gulf Coast. Humidity is commonly 100% or more. There are sections of the warehouse that are more than 50 years old. So. . . all of the above.

-A-

If the warehouse has doors, you may want to consider treating the air, rather than the concrete. Nothing you put on the floor is going to stop the moisture problem. I'm sure the workers wouldn't mind. Usual disclaimer.

http://www.bry-air.com/

http://www.breathepureair.com/dehumidifiers_industrial.html

Just a note - you can NOT have more than 100% humidity [100% is 100%].

Have you thought of refrigerating the loading area, like a giant cold store ? That is a way to decrease the relative humidity, and will keep the forklift operators happy during the warm months.

A longer term project would be to remove the floor which has this this problem and re-build it with moisture barriers etc.

Phil,

I can tell you've never been in Texas, in the middle of the summer, when it's just rained and the sun's back out.

Well there's a significant difference in northern versus southern concrete structures. Here frost heaving is a problem so all concrete must have at least footings below the frost line. Also living on one of the largest sand bars in the world, moisture barriers are mandatory everywhere. I hate to think how quickly water wicking concrete would crumble after a frozen winter like last winter. I wonder what concrete standards tcmtech must meet?

I AM thankful we don't have the winters y'all face up there.

-A-

Have you considered something like PSP or Marston mats? These were used during WWII as temporary runways and roads, they can be inter-locked and pulled up for cleaning trash out from under them.

Yeah, good answer, either that or heavy gauge expanded mesh.

Regards.

This is a simple problem. The floors are slick. The tires are slick. Add oil and moisture and you've got a problem.

You need to increase the surface area, or friction of one of your traction surfaces. You can cut a lot of saw grooves for less than $90K.

This is what I am thinking, but the salesman says his product is harder than the concrete and will last longer. . .

-A-

This stuff might work $2 sq ft ....

http://www.nonslipcoating.com/concrete.htm

This sounds like a really interesting problem, I wish I was there to analyze it and try some tactics. I do expect the concrete was finished to a beautiful shine, contractors just love those helicopter polishers, and a little dry cement at the finish will produce a really gorgeous polished surface. Nice to look at and easy to sweep, but slippery. I prefer a broom finish, but that has to be specified at the time of the pour.

I'm sure the fork lifts help to shine the floor even more with flat rubber tires adding tire dust, motor oil, hydraulic oil, and who knows what else to the floor. What ever you do, the fork lifts will continue to add their contributions to the floor.

I like the pressure washing idea, and don't forget to wash the hell out of the fork lift tires! They have been sucking up oil for years, and will ooze it forever. After washing the wheels, run the fork lifts over waste cardboard to blot up any oil that will squeeze out.

Any time you have cardboard, put it on the floor to blot up grime. It will blot the floor and the wheels at the same time. Toss it when it gets loaded.

See if you can add a harsh detergent, acid, whatever, to the pressure washer while cleaning the concrete. Maybe after a while you can etch the polish off the floors and a nice traction surface will develop.

There are some citrus cleaners that will clean the floor really great, and they don't smell bad at all! If it's real citrus, it may be acidic, too, and etch a little.

Best wishes on this one, let us know how it goes.

The proposed solution at present is to scarify the top down 1/4" or so and then add a epoxy with grit. The covering would be the same used on aircraft carriers. Expensive stuff.

I was hoping for some alternatives. . . That someone had actually had success with.

-A-

You may not have noticed, but the navy does not drag loaded containers across the decks of it's aircraft carriers. Maybe that is because they don't want to scuff up their nice pretty surfaces. They do however, wash down their decks fairly frequently with high pressure washers. This is as much to remove aviation fuel as it is to remove grime and aircraft tyre deposit. Compare the number of planes and other vehicles that cross a carrier deck with the number of fork trucks that run on your apron and you will find that the deck is very lightly used. If your salesman is so confident that his solution will solve your problem, offer to let him do a sample patch in a well used area at his own cost. If it works you can pay the $90K and a premium for the sample work.

This will be the best advice I have ever given: "Get a Warranty."

I am not an expert, but if your concrete floor is wicking moisture up out of the ground, then this epoxy with grit, or any alternative to cover this concrete will not work for long, the moisture from the ground will damage any cover you put on your concrete floor.

I think you first need to prevent the concrete to wick moisture from the ground and then work on different solutions to prevent the slippery floor.

Hope you can find a good and affordable solution .

Try here www.highwaysmaintenance.com/skidtext.htm.

We use this on our intersections to help braking. Warning, it stinks!

After reading most of the other post. It seems to me that you have more of a wicking problem than anything else. I have seen the same issues at times on various runways I have used. To stop the absence of traction at these sites The FAA has worked with many engineering firms to come up with a solution that really does work. It is also something I have used on dock ramps over the years for the same reason you have stated. Runways are cross cut to cut the hydroplaning effect in wet or damp weather. There are many firms that can do this type of work and it won't cost you an arm & a leg. Well maybe just a leg. But, it works and stops the problem. Good Luck, Run out to your local airport and have a look at the runway. I might add normal 5 to 6K lengths are done this way. Jets like to be able to stop. Smaller airports may not have this.

At the risk of having Lyn call me negative, the more I think about it, the less I think a solution like this will work.

Both a non skid coating and cut grooves sound good...................right up to the point that we have to consider that they are dragging metal shipping containers across the surface.

I think that with a nonskid coating, the dragging of the containers, (even if the coating lasts), will quickly polish off the nonskid additive.

In the case of the cut grooves, what I see happening, is that the dragging of the containers will quickly fill the grooves with wet dust......................again, creating a slippery polished surface.

The cheapest idea I have is to cover the floor with sand to regain traction but that would likely cause more problems for you. Would it be feasible to use a ride on floor scrubber to clean the problem area as needed? These seem to be more common these days. You might be able to find a used one cheap. Or rent one to see if it helps first. I feel your pain with the moisture problem. In the Midwest we experience this when the warm spring air and cool concrete meet.

Good luck

Our scrubber arrived yesterday. Thanks!

-A-

Let me us know how it works out please.

That would be nice. Sometimes people don't know how emotionally involved we get with these projects.

Most solid fork lift tires have little tread in them even when bought new. Since there is no tread there is nowhere for the muck on your dock to go. Until the weight of the truck forces it out. Cutting tread into the tire will improve the traction. Knives are available that can be used to cut tread in them. These heated knives cut about a 1/4" wide X 1/4" deep groove. The tread pattern is up to you. I have cut tread into the tires on many lift trucks to resolve the issue you bring up. A zig zag pattern works best.

Note just as on any vehicle the faster you go no amount of tread will hold traction.

When I was still in the Yukon we used studded tires on our tow-motors (forklifts). This may solve the vehicular traction by both biting into the concrete as well as providing creating a pocked surface by the studs digging the concrete.

If these containers are being loaded on flatbed trucks, you could probably purchase an overhead crane for loading that would cost less than $90K.

Nope, there is a roof over the dock and we use box trucks. We need to keep our product dry.

-A-

I can't imagine something like this costing anywhere near 90K for the dock area.

http://www.slipnot.com/products/

We don't know how many square miles of loading dock is being considered. But I agree that a grating system where debris can fall and be cleaned out from time to time seems like a good idea.

I am concerned that a fork or a crate may catch the corner of a deck plate and cause an injury. As of now, I am looking for a softer solution.

-A-

No, an over head crane is built into the building and is under your roof. Dragging shipping containers over smooth concrete is just polishing the surfaces to be smoother. Depending on the size of the mass you're moving, this can easily be much more than $90k to install after the building installation to move a container anywhere in your building by crane, but it will solve your problem of polishing your surfaces. Instead a loading dock crane that moves the container to some rolling cart sounds like a better idea.

I really do not intend to offend, but from the beginning I've wondered if your methodology for moving material is up to the task. Any work that routinely alters your building sounds to me as if you're doing it wrong. The root of your problem may not be your floors.

I'm just trying to politely provide another alternative to your problem. Running out of traction implies to me that maybe you might need a new method that does the same job with less traction.

you may also want to consider tire chains for forkifts. one source is: www.tirechainsrequired.com

Have you considered heated fans to keep the concrete dry?

Down here in the south, cool concrete condenses warm moist air. If you can keep the concrete temp up, the moisture will not form.

Or, if there is a way to cut the concrete and install heater strips in the concrete.

You may want to consider an Industrial concrete floor utilizing a specially processed clean Iron aggregate (particles) additive that's used typically very extraordinary heavy duty traffic and impact areas. This material is added to the concrete over-topping mixture, so you will need to grind down and roughen-up the existing concrete slab......I recommend at least 2-inches minimum of removal. Prior to the modified concrete setup, you must apply a heavy bristle broom finish and/or cut serrations into the top of the new slab (like those done on airport runways or state interstate on & off ramps).

Here's a link to a manufacturer of said Iron industrial floor coatings:

www.anti-hydro.com

Check out either the A-H Metallic Hardener #225 or the A-H Irontop products.

I have specified both products for industrial slab-on-grade projects in the past with great success....one was done at an US Army arsenal (US Army Material Command) that manufacturers 120mm smooth bore tank guns for the M-1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank....another one was at a US Dept of Energy facility jointly run by the US Navy and GE.....while another was used in a specialty steel producing plant that produced made-to-order SS products. One benefit from using this product is increased forklift tire traction! Th9is product will last for years and years, even under the most severe loadings, impacts, dragging of heavy steel boxes. Also, it is very easy to clean off!!!

signed,

CaptMoosie, PhD, PE

.one was done at an US Army arsenal (US Army Material Command) that manufacturers 120mm smooth bore tank guns for the M-1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank....another one was at a US Dept of Energy facility jointly run by the US Navy and GE.....

Um, I know I'm sounding negative again..........................but, any idea what the price tag was?

Ummm about the same price as an Industrial "Trap Rock" concrete slab overlay........yeah it's pricey, but lasts for decades.

These floors were done in the early 80's, and no, I don't have the figures on hand (projects were done for an engineering firm I used to work for, now closed). Sorry!

The Arsenal I mentioned is the Watervliet Arsenal, located about 10 miles north of Albany NY. That slab was literally tortured during the QA/QC testing and passed with flying colors! The floor featured a non-slip surface and I didn't fear loosing my traction while walking it, even if there was an abundance of cutting oil (they use a lot of this in the gun barrel manufacture) on it's surface. Sorry, I cannot divulge any further info about this facility since it's highly classified.....

I've only got one more possible idea and then I'm out.

Call your insurance company and see what they recommend.

You may get a substantial drop in your rate by going with a system that they approve. Between that, and choosing a system with a good warranty, you should have something that will last and will potentially pay for itself.

It will probably involve enclosing your outdoor loading dock, but $90 grand will go a long way.

OK, update. We are going to put a floor sweeper/scrubber out in the warehouse for large area cleaning. Also, we are going to pressure wash (7000 psi) the docks with a degreasing agent, starting on a monthly basis.

This is our starting point. Thank you all for your input.

I would love to install the military concrete suggested by CaptMoosie, it's just not an option to shut down a dock for a two week cure time. Maybe in sections.

First we are going to try the cleanliness route. If this all blows up in catastrophic fialure, I'll be shure to let y'all know.

-A-

All along with your daily housekeeping, you might want to try grooving the concrete. It's a common practice in bridge construction in preparation for icy weather.

Have you talked with the forklift parts suppliers ?

How about the local forklift dealer ?

I know that there are a variety of tires/wheels availalable for various machines.

-A-, This isn't a sales pitch, but I just ran across this new product called Never Wet. I don't know any of the performance spec's on it. You might want to contact them and explain your problem with traction. And being this is a new product on the market, you might get a big break on the price if they can use you as part of their product research. They're apparently located Pennsylvania. Good Luck, Dan

I'm looking into it now. Thanks.

-A-

"Please note that our Never Wet products are NOT available for Consumers as a Retail product at this time. We expect to have retail spray can products available by mid 2012."

They are presently only interested in other manufactures incorporating Never Wet into their products.

Also, this doesn't seem to stand up to mechanical wear. . . I'll keep an ear out for it but continue to pursue other options.

-A-

I'm sorry to hear that, anyhow, good luck. DJ