Power from Thermal Energy in Air at Room Temperature

Your comment is reasonable . But when I say that thermal energy at room temperature can be harnessed to generate power I do not suggest replicating a cyclone.

Rather as well observed by you the very phenomena of cyclones is not understood till date.This grey area holds many secrets of which one may hold the key to generate power once the cyclonic process is better understood.

The key element offers a possibility of building an air conditioner which will double as a power generator.

Please remember that we are not talking replicating cyclones but using the pieces of relevant science to generate power.

We will uncover science for benefit from the grey areas.The known science is not the end all.

Aside from a hope that science may someday develop new ways to generate power, do you have any ideas? Or, just hope?

Thanks for your very incisive question.

You will be pleased to know that I do have a clear plan of action.Preliminary calculations are most encouraging.

You will appreciate that the cyclonic phenomena is highly complex entailing gas/liquid interface,evaporative cooling,temperature & pressure characteristics ,of liquids/gases and thermodynamics.I have identified the key element of interest. If I can get someone to carry out some computer simulations it will save me a lot of trial and error(though eventually test and trials will definitely be needed.

Strictly speaking I can go ahead with building the prototype,which will not cost much, but then computer simulation if possible will save much time in fine tuning trials.

Can you recommend someone capable of carrying out computer simulation involving liquid-vapor interface.

I agree. It's these grey areas where the Black Swan technology for waste heat power harvesting will be found, and where we should look. It's pieces we need to fit together, and fitting together pieces (synthesis) is not what academics do (analysis). Discussions like this on CR4 are what make it worthwhile, to me at least.

The cyclone may have theta pinch as the ions swirl around the axis, whereas a hurricane is more like what the OP had in mind: an engine powered by heat flux. See my comment 5 here.

Thank you.

However I would like to clarify that this proposal has no need for waste heat.The thermal energy at ambient temperature will be collected by heat exchangers, and I do not see any probem as long as ambient temperature is above 0 deg cent.Lower than that there will be problem of frosting.

While on the subject could you recommend some one capable of carrying out computer simulation of complex gas-liquid interface.

When you refer to "thermal energy at ambient temperature" , are you fully aware of the steep temperature gradients in weather systems, which are involved in generation of the "thermodynamic energy" in cyclones and hurricanes ?

"Ambient temperature" and "Air at Room Temperature" is an undefined variable, obviously, but your question does seem to imply the assumption that temperature patterns involved in generating cyclones are steady and similar to those in a room. They are not.

"Why can we not harness this obvious new source of abundant energy."

Obvious NEW source??? What's new about storms?

You might want to contact LynDoor™Industries. We might be interested in marketing it as an accessory to our LynDoor™Industries LightningSnatcher^® Mobile electricity harvesting unit. Lightning and storms seem to follow each other sometimes.

Seriously, welcome to CR4. Throw your ideas out there and let's see what happens.

Be prepared for total honesty in the remarks received as feed-back.

Pay no attention to some of these guys.

I keep waiting to see this in action. Totally feasible. The last I heard, I think they wouldn't allow him to make a full scale model because of fears that the vortex would escape, I could be wrong on that. I would really like to see it work.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25374237/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/man-made-tornadoes-could-power-future/

http://vortexengine.ca/index.shtml

I live and learn! If the design can use waste heat to generate power effectively, then it is really promising.

Popular Science did a piece it.

http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-06/10-audacious-ideas-save-planet?page=6

I think solar could be used to heat the water also. I hope he's able to get the money together to move forward.

Sounds a great idea to me, much better than the normal wind turbines over here in the UK, they only produce about 12.5% effectively!

The atmospheric vortex engine of Louis Michaud is one example. One difficulty that comes to mind immediately is the size of the machinery involved. But even without any machinery to harvest power from the heat flux, imparting swirl to smokestack exhaust should be a good thing if it can connect the flue to a heat sink in the upper atmosphere and thereby assist exhaust by reducing backpressure. Truck exhaust could benefit by some swirl-inducing vanes too. On a smaller scale, and with a different working fluid, here is something else for waste heat power harvesting using the hurricane method: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7980078.pdf

The ambient energy around us expresses a relationship with all energy. Heat is an energetic process of the Quantum world, and "temperature" expresses "heat" in matter.

If these two non-interchangeable expressions have a fundamental common denominator as the Quantum nature of all energy, then there is a fundamental inherent "ambient" background Quantum energy, that exists all around us all the time.

It's because its incovenient. In order for you create a thermal engine, you need to have two heat sinks-one low and one at higher temperature.

As for example internal combustion engine, combustion temperature at 400C and ambient @ 30C. There will be no thermal energy when engine temperature = ambient, agree? The engine wont work.

As for the case of nature, there is not so big difference of temperature available but, a difference of 10 deg C ocean to ambient air could mean a disaster.

Consider this equation of heat Q=mCpΔT, in nature ΔT is small, so m-mass is larger scale. That's why its enormously incovenient and costly to build something like that.

.

What if the process generates a self sustaining temperature gradient(after having kivck started the process!

Why can we not harness this obvious new source of abundant energy.
For the same reason you can't put a hydroelectric dam in the middle of a lake. The water has to be going somewhere to get any work out of it. The heat in the room has to be going from a hot place to a cold place to get any work out of it.

The tread addresses "Power" in ambient "Air at Room Temperature", and questions if it may be possible to extract a Potential.

There is a problem with the question in that it confuses "states" of energy in the air around us as thermal energy, where "thermal energy" owes its expression to the underlying "states" of energy all around us all the time. And "Potentials" do exist as gradients, and exhibit themselves all around us, and that without these 'every day gradients' as "Reaction", as gradient driven Reactions, all life, and all processes, cease.

The question perhaps asks how can we tap into this, and by some yet unknown process.

These gradients in energy exist due to uneven heating of the earth by the sun. These gradients are the source of winds, which we are now, probably inefficiently, capturing using windmills.

You have to have a hot source and a cold sink to get any work out of heat. To be efficient, these have to have a large temperature difference (Carnot efficiency) and be physically close to one another (to limit the size of your "heat engine").

I agree.

The current approaches, to energy production uses energy differentials as "properties of matter", and express gradients as 'mechanical' features of heat or other "pressure" differentials e.i. wind, water, expansion, etc., as the macro world.

But all around us is a background micro world of gradients, as energy, and it is this "background world", driving reactions, having enormous potential as a composite, yet individual "reactions" are of the order of molecule to molecule, and as 'energetic' events give rise to what we know and enjoy as the "natural world".

They are considered energetic events of the quantum world, and outside of the domain the "real world" harvest-able energy, without extraordinary, and extraordinarily expensive apparatus.

But, the fact remains that these "reactions" happen with no equipment at all, and reflect huge energy differentials and as common as a single molecule of water being 'pushed' from a liquid to a vapor, but ...

The problem is ...

Can an energetic "differential" be 'held' between 'states' of matter ...

And if a differential can be held, is it possible to harvest an energy "gradient" as "Energy"

You do not understand the concept of a chaotic configuration. You are correct that there are always microscopic regions where an energy gradient exists sufficiently high enough that one might be able to harness this energy at an instant in time. However, in a short amount of time the polarity of that energy gradient can change.

There is though a phenomena that has already been developed that uses this concept of separating the hot elements of a fluid from the cool elements of a fluid. This came from a though experiment known as Maxwell's demon. This system has been used cooling system for spot cooling in industrial systems many times. However, it consumes energy instead of producing.

Every chaotic 'system' as a system is composed of elements. These "elements", are, as to the order of the "system" not chaotic. The Maxwell thought experiment Maxwell's demon illustrates this exactly. The gas/liquid system is chaotic and demonstrates entropy, however the 'elemental' gas and the 'elemental' liquid are not chaotic. The properties that determine 'states' of matter; liquid to gas/gas to liquid operate under tightly constrained, well defined and predictable mechanisms.

A gradient is by Law unnatural, as any gradient will move towards equilibrium and obtain stasis as a modulation. Energy is obtained by the development of systems that separate a high state from a low state as Potential and obtains Work by the Method of utilizing the differential.

A river describes a chaotic system, a dam and a hydroelectric plant do not. But, the dam and power plant did not precede the river, someone had to 'see', 'potential', in the running water; and ask the question "what if." It is the question 'what if' that precedes the power plant.

The original question to this thread poses a "what if", as what if energy could be obtained from the ambient air [river(s) of energy flowing all around us] at room temperature.

That a "new" source of energy is not new, new is that we find a new way to tap it.

The central problem is the OP's question assumes a near entropy gradient and harvesting produces entropy - so what is there to harvest?

I don't think it is a case of 'new science' just 'low return on investment' with such low gradients.

By the way the solar uplift idea uses the significant gradient between insolated ground heated air and upper altitude cold air. There is no "vortex" and in fact it may well 'short out' tornado formation - given sufficiently high and numerous chimneys in a prone area.

Or one idea should not be confused with another.

A river does have aspects that are chaotic but a river has a natural order to it, upstream and downstream.

I really appreciate your remark.Thanks.

Science derives its strength from observing nature in action,Understanding it and if possible put it to productive use.

Cyclones are only examples to prove that thermodynamic energy can be drawn from thermal energy at seemingly ambient temperature.I mention them only to dispel the mental block in the scientific circles that energy cannot be drawn from heat at ambient temperature.

Having rid ourselves of this mental block we can now proceed with figuring out ways to tap this omnipresent energy source

Thank you.

You have hit the point I am making on the nail.

Perhaps in due course I would meet you.

Thanks for you understanding.You seem very well informed ,and would value your comments.

However what I suggest is yet uncharted territory.

I can't help wondering what happens to Michaud's tornado when it encounters real weather and wind up there. How would the function be impacted by different weathers: heat, cold, wind, precipitation.

He did suggest that the machine could cause an increase in the rainfall in its immediate vicinity (which is okay if it's in a dry area - as long as it doesn't rain Jeeps and schoolbuses). If the forecast of increased rain is because it takes up moisture from the environment, what would the interaction be with a big storm or in a wet and stormy climate area? Would safe and productive operation be limited to specific climates? Would there be a high "shut-down" factor that limits output on a regular basis ? - as there is with wind turbines.

I'm also wondering about the possibility of it spawning smaller tornadoes in the vicinity, given the right weather conditions.

Although, it can be shut down quickly. So they would have to include either storage or a backup conventional system.

I wonder what happens to the vortex upon 'shut down'. Since it has built up enough force to be generating electricity, the obvious question is, does the shut down mechanism somehow suck that energy out of it. If not, the shutdown might release the tornado itself into the environment where its future would be determined by the prevailing forces at that moment.

These are reasonable questions that have to be answered before any investor would put a penny forward on the technology... it must be completely controllable.

I invite the OP and other proponents of this technology to explain the shutdown mechanism to me, as if I had money to build a power plant! _{It's good exercise, since anyway the answers to those questions will have to be well understood and public knowledge before it could possibly be approved to go ahead...}

Thanks for your comment.

The cyclonic process holds the key to generating power from ambient heat.I do not propose to generate cyclones.

The proposal I put forward can be proven easily by building a small air conditioner.But as rightly observed by you since this is a self generating system it would require controls(easily available), to keep the process stable.The possibility of runaway is only if the power generated is not evacuated (just as cyclones dissipate when they encounter land )

The idea that 'this is a self generating system' is really incorrect, and I certainly didn't suggest that. Cyclones in nature are produced by temperature gradients and atmospheric forces - they are not "self generating". A man-made cyclone which extends into the atmosphere would be subject to prevailing atmospheric forces, and as such, could get out of control. Not because it is 'self-generating', but because we don't control the atmospheric forces which naturally generate cyclones and also affect their size, intensity, speed, direction etcetera.

You say that you can prove your proposal by building a small air conditioner. Please provide some details to explain your design reasoning. If it is possible for an air conditioner to generate the amount of power that it consumes, I will be astounded. Granted, even if you could only reduce the cost of air conditioning by co-generating some power, it would be worthwhile. But a cyclonic energy harvesting system can't be more than 100% efficient - it is impossible for any air conditioner design to harvest more power than it consumes in sucking and blowing hot air out of a room.

Thanks for correcting me. the right word was self sustaining and not self generating.

There is no intent to make a man-made cyclone.The example of cyclones is relevant only in so far as to point out that it proves that thermal energy at apparently ambient temperature can be converted to thermodynamic energy (which can then be converted to mechanical/electrical energy by conventional technology

As for the temperature gradients,self sustaining temperature gradients are created by the cyclones and not vice versa

An air conditioner is the simplest application of the process.Also it will require no power to run since it will generate exactly the same amount of power as the thermal energy absorbed(being a self sustaining process).The process can be applied on any scale as required

Kindly note I am not talking of textbook knowledge,but am discussing an entirely new look at the concept of energy.

hi dassatish2003

I don't mean to dismiss your worthy goal and your interest in new perspectives on energy, but I think the idea that the cyclone is 'self-sustaining' is the same error as thinking it is 'self-generating'. The cyclone is continuously fed by atmospheric forces, most importantly, the temperature gradient between warm air near the earth surface and cool air high above. In Michaud's prototype, it is fed by the waste heat from a power plant, to create a steeper gradient than the ambient.

The solar chimney link posted by 34point5 is a good example of technology that converts thermal energy to thermodynamic energy. The massive scale of the chimney is required to exploit the temperature gradient between warm air in the collector and cool air high above. Some of the prototypes or designs discussed on that page involve chimneys kilometers tall for that purpose. The size of collector required to heat air at the earth surface for this purpose is also very large, and figures are given there, for the amount of electricity generated per collector area, with an overall conversion efficiency of around 5%. That is less than the efficiency of solar panels or wind turbines, but the positive trade-off is that the collector area can be used as greenhousing for agricultural purposes at the same time. It is certainly a long way from the dream of 100% conversion efficiency which you envision for your air conditioner unit.

The trouble with the air conditioner idea, is that there is no temperature gradient to create the thermodynamic equivalent of the "apparently ambient" production of cyclones in nature, or of the air motion converted to power in the solar chimney. Both of these examples are tapping the gradient that is present between surface warmed air and cool air occurring naturally at a significant height. This gradient clearly is missing in the 'genuinely ambient' circumstance where it's hot outside and also in the house that needs an air conditioner.

You suggest that 'self-sustaining' temperature gradients are created by the cyclones themselves. This is nonsense. Please do some reading on the subject, and you will find that your present train of thought is ill-founded.

The solar chimney is not new.In fact I have used it to create air flow in desert coolers for green houses.

As for the nonsense 1 the cyclonic effect certainly does need a temperature gradient to build up.2 temperature gradient will be needed to kick start any process proposed. 3 There after it is not only self sustaining but builds upon it.4 If what I tack about is available in books I am no longer interested.

Wait a minute

If what I tack about is available in books I am no longer interested.

Really? Are you seriously telling us that if a person does sound, peer approved research that is published in a journal you are no longer interested in what they have to say. You only want to hear unproven fantasies from minds incapable of building anything from accepted engineering practice. Do I understand you correctly?

I think what the OP means is 'if it is known, then I don't want to know about it'

The phishing seems to be for an unknown ethereal mechanism which will exonerate the OP's invention's methodology.

I'm rather interested as to what that invention is - in a sort of "Das" fascinated way

Where the term "self-sustaining" is used to describe cyclones, it refers to the self-organizing structure of the cyclone, not to a perpetual motion with no source of power to sustain it! If cyclones were self-sustaining on the basis of a 'kick start', they would never dissipate. Air conditioning would be the least of your worries.

"The most common causes of dissipation are wind shear disrupting the convective organization of the storm, or the storm moving over cooler water which can't support deep convection. A tropical cyclone making landfall will begin to weaken nearly instantly, since the heat reservoir driving the heat engine is suddenly taken away." See that? Heat reservoir driving the heat engine, eh. Surprise, surprise.

You are perfectly right.

But what are you leading to?

Convection won't occur without the cold end either. The only way to maintain your 'kick-started' cyclonic structure is to use power to maintain the necessary temperature gradient.

You may, however, be interested in this recent news article about cyclonic enthusiasts who might form a customer base for your hot air self-sustaining air conditioner product.

I always enjoy a sense of humor.

However reverting to the subject could you please let me know how the earliest refrigerators worked on kerosene-i.e -how by burning kerosene to generate heat you obtained cooling in the refrigerator.

Yawn. kerosene refrigerator.

The process derives useful knowledge from the phenomena of cyclones but does not emulate cyclones. the cyclones as example only prove that thermodynamic energy can be generated from seemingly ambient conditions.

The process is self sustaining ,after having been kick started,and will run continuously till such time as thermal energy absorbed is duly evacuated as mechanical /electrical energy.The energy generated will need to be evacuated or disposed of when not needed for useful purpose.The process can be easily ende by disturbing the equilibrium.

There have been a few threads touching on this

Yes the system is in the building stage now it's called Renewable thermal wind power

the energy power source. Check it out & give feed back, all 1 word

www.renewablethermalwindpower.com

5 structure sizes for better fite the community that supports it as a owners of the plant.

I think that Hawaii is using the differential of temperature from the deep ocean to the surface to generate electricity.

And also to produce potable water. Google for OTEC (Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion). I've written about it here on CR4 before and somewhere out there is the paper I wrote on the amount of water that could be produced.

Once the water's been through all this, it is then used to water plants, since it is nutrient rich.

Truly fascinating! I'm sad to see it isn't applicable in the north atlantic.

Yup - you need high ambients to make it worthwhile!