Previous in Forum: Earthing for Transformer   Next in Forum: why HI-POT test is done after HT termination..????
Close
Close
Close
5 comments
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Old Member, New Association

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1639
Good Answers: 73

Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/10/2012 12:48 PM

How many times have you been looking for a problem only to find out that it was right in front of you the whole time? I love the challenge of problem solving on CR4 and all the insight it provides to its readers.

Please contribute, if you will, your most supprising finds or your most interesting problem that you solved. You can insert links to it if it is already in CR4.

Some examples include discussions about the danger of floating grounds or neutrals in a residential power feed. I'm talking about where the ground in a 120V-G-120V circuit exists and the ground becomes broken. Looking at the problem from the side of the symptoms is always confusing, but experience teaches us what to expect.

I recently had a failure on a bar code reader that was fed indirectly a clocking signal from an encoder. The encoder signal was fed to a 5VDC TTL circuit which replecated it out at 24VDC to a an optoisolator module that dropped it back to a 5 or 12 VDC signal for the barcode reader. Everything was fine for a few minutes and then the barcode reader started throwing out garbage between each good piece of data.

What happened is that the optoisolator started (nearly) doubling the frequency of the encoder as it warmed up. Working only with the output from the barcode reader, (no schemetics) it was a challenge to figure out that it was the optoisolator that was at fault. I can't remember where, but I have seen this kind of failure before and it looks like this. What about you? Share some of those problems that stumpped you for a while until you realized what was causing it.

__________________
A great troubleshooting tip...."When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA, Florida
Posts: 1587
Good Answers: 125
#1

Re: Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/10/2012 2:17 PM

We had a system at a local runway that probably fits in here.

The controller for a large fixed gas extinguishing system was in a trouble state on start up. The system had to be on line ASAP as it protected the runway lights backup power for a new runway at Orlando International Airport, and this new runway was being placed in operation.

T=2 days until runway ops.

First technician on scene noticed the problem seemed to be the power supply. He ordered a replacement and left the site.

T=1 day until runway ops.

Second technician goes to site, replaces power supply and declares it bad out of the box. Calls in to order another power supply which would get on site the day of runway ops.

I put the brakes on the project and went to the site. It turns out that the power transformer which supplies power to the power supply board had been improperly tapped at the factory. I corrected the tap and the problem disappeared.

The simplest possible problem was overlooked. The assumption that "if the factory did it, it HAD to be good" almost gave us a black eye.

__________________
An obstacle is something you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - Rig Electrician United States - Member - the Oil Patch Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Drives & Gen's Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Drive Control Popular Science - Cosmology -

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston off/on-shore @ Oil Patch
Posts: 224
Good Answers: 2
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/10/2012 3:41 PM

I stopped believing in BOB (bad out of box) in about the same number of years of troubleshooting it took me to figure out Santa Cause

__________________
Why do they make manhole covers round? so they won't fall in [before asking "Who is John Galt?"]
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 5799
Good Answers: 315
#2

Re: Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/10/2012 2:42 PM

One thing which is very hard to explain to technicians is that a component was not necessarily faulty just because when they changed it for a new one the problem went away. There could easily be a fundamental problem which is sometimes made worse by the tolerance of components. This is especially true of interface problems.

I seem to have gone through a long period of my life ironing out problems with RS422/RS485 signalling. This is just a way to convert TTL (or other logic technologies) into differential signals to transmit over a cable so that noise causes less problems. Nearly all of the problems which the test guys on the shop floor thought they had fixed by replacing an RS485 transceiver turned out to be something subtle in the way the signalling was turned on and off, or, the way the address of the receiving component got "phantomed". But one of the best was a pure test problem.

The signalling is often done with a clock pair and data pair: the data changes at the negative going clock edge and is clocked in at the far end on the positive going clock edge:-

In the setup which had the problem the test equipment had one set of clock and data pairs and the Unit Under Test (UUT) had another set. The test guys knew that they had some "really good" pairs of transceivers that always worked in the UUT and some that were "compatible" with some and not with others.

As soon as I looked at the clock and data at the receiving end of the link I knew what the problem was:-

The test engineer who built the test equipment had swapped the neg. and pos. leads of the clock differential pair. The positive clock edge now coincided with the point at which the data was changing. The "really good" pairs of transceivers were ones which had very different propagation delays through them so that the clock edge always fell just after or just before the data change. When the combined propagation delay through the the transceivers at both ends of the link added up to the same delay the clock was sometimes received before the data change and sometimes after so the data got really badly scrambled.

Trying to figure out what was going on for the test technicians by swapping out components made for an unfathomable puzzle. Looking at the signals with a scope and it was easy.

__________________
We are alone in the universe, or, we are not. Either way it's incredible... Adapted from R. Buckminster Fuller/Arthur C. Clarke
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 75
Good Answers: 6
#4

Re: Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/10/2012 11:55 PM

The strangest and most difficult problem I've ever solved was concerning a vehicle charging system on the 1984-7 Honda Goldwing motorcycles- big, expensive cycles loaded with fancy electronics.

The electrical and electronic systems were absolutely plagued with faulty connector terminals due to an extremely hostile environment, and disastrous advice from Honda to tell mechanics to fill connectors full of dielectric grease.

Bad connectors are nothing new to vehicles, but this particular vehicle had an extremely strange problem- a common cause of the electrical charging system failure was DIRTY SPARK PLUG THREADS. Yes, threads that screwed into the cylinder head.

Yes, a component that had no direct connection to the primary charging system would cause complete system failure. Absolutely blew the minds of owners and mechanics both.

Most vehicles have alternators that provide electro-mechanical isolation between the mechanical drive to the charging system, and the regulator. This vehicle didnt.

With an alternator, there is a some degree of isolation between input (crankshaft) and output (voltage regulator and load) because of the amplifying action of the field winding.

With the three-phase magneto in this vehicle, there was no such isolation. A dirty and/or loose spark plug thread caused voltage transients to feed back into the primary charging system, and it took a 10 Gs/s DSO to see them- 400V spikes that would literally cause the voltage regulator to shut down because it sensed overcharging.

It was absolutely hilarious to see owners who didnt believe me, to remove the plugs, clean them, and then see the system started working.

The larger point is that the system was a large control system which included a loop from voltage source (magneto), regulator, ignition controller, HV transformer and spark plugs, then the combustion process. When that chain was interrupted, no charging. Without an isolating element, the system could go haywire from a fault at any point.

you might have caught that theres not a perfectly clear cause and effect here that indicates control system failure- as evident in a simple loss of charging.

What was really odd was the evidence of the control loop which related subtile changes in engine tuning that controlled the charging system. Even changes in RH or fuel mixture would drive the supposedly "regulated" system around. The first question Id ask an owner complaining of tuning problems is "what is the charging voltage"?

When the response was "less than 14.2" Id tell them "its too rich" and it was right on, every time.

Ive not seen such responses from any alternator powered vehicle in 30 years.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Old Member, New Association

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1639
Good Answers: 73
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Wisdom Through Troubleshooting Circuits

04/16/2012 9:16 AM

That is really an interesting problem. Had to give you a GA (good answer for those of you who don't know). I would have pulled out most of my hair trying to figure out that one!

__________________
A great troubleshooting tip...."When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 5 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

daveca (1); kwcharlie (1); NotUrOrdinaryJoe (1); Randall (1); WJMFIRE (1)

Previous in Forum: Earthing for Transformer   Next in Forum: why HI-POT test is done after HT termination..????

Advertisement